Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[SMK777]

Besides correcting the inaccuracy here about Holeman, I have to say that a lot of us here totally misread the purpose of the April 2019 press conference.

Each previous press conference was for the primary purpose of informing the public about what was going on in the investigation. If you expected the April press conference to also be informational and aimed at the average person, then it would have left you mostly confused, because while some of it was aimed at reassuring the families/Delphi community and possibly was ad-libbed (the part about The Shack and "not what they are experiencing today"), IMO most of it was crafted with a single purpose: destabilization of the killer.

IMO the investigators were letting the killer know that they are aware of the vehicle at the CPS building and that they are aware that the video does not accurately capture how he usually appears. They hammered home the following images: "two LITTLE girls," "only a coward," "we know this was about power." And finally, there was the phrase Carter apparently planned to say but didn't: "we have a witness" (which was in the ISP press release from the conference quoted as part of his remarks). See the witness comment (which was never said) here: New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

It's not a Madison Avenue campaign, it's an FBI-directed campaign. The primary focus was NOT getting info out to the public so strangers (like us) can help solve it. It's so people close to this guy become more willing to tell what they know and so that his actions destabilize and break - possibly leading family to suspect him when they previously did not, or leading him to try to contact police to change his story, or to get in touch with them to find out exactly what they know.

If this case continues on with no obvious break (which it probably will), you may expect at some point for a newspaper to profile Holeman as a "super cop" or highlighting his new homicide training or his success with other cases. This would be another strategy to destabilize the killer and get under his skin.

All MOO.

Absolutely correct. It took me a very long time to understand that the last press conference was never aimed at the public, but only at the killer and a few close to him.

 

[MistyWaters]

Absolutely correct. It took me a very long time to understand that the last press conference was never aimed at the public, but only at the killer and a few close to him.

I agree, the purpose of the PC two years ago becomes much clearer if one views it through that different lens. Had it provoked the results LE had anticipated - an announcement of an arrest within the following days or weeks, we’d be here admiring the wisdom. That the strategy didn’t yield results is not a failure, it’s an example of the extensive effort LE have invested into solving this case.

Asking the public for tips to help determine who’s responsible for an unsolved crime is routine in every unsolved case. Based on the information LE chooses to release, if we don’t know anybody who LE might be interested in then the best we can hope for is maybe somebody else does.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Besides correcting the inaccuracy here about Holeman, I have to say that a lot of us here totally misread the purpose of the April 2019 press conference.

Each previous press conference was for the primary purpose of informing the public about what was going on in the investigation. If you expected the April press conference to also be informational and aimed at the average person, then it would have left you mostly confused, because while some of it was aimed at reassuring the families/Delphi community and possibly was ad-libbed (the part about The Shack and "not what they are experiencing today"), IMO most of it was crafted with a single purpose: destabilization of the killer.

IMO the investigators were letting the killer know that they are aware of the vehicle at the CPS building and that they are aware that the video does not accurately capture how he usually appears. They hammered home the following images: "two LITTLE girls," "only a coward," "we know this was about power." And finally, there was the phrase Carter apparently planned to say but didn't: "we have a witness" (which was in the ISP press release from the conference quoted as part of his remarks). See the witness comment (which was never said) here: New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

It's not a Madison Avenue campaign, it's an FBI-directed campaign. The primary focus was NOT getting info out to the public so strangers (like us) can help solve it. It's so people close to this guy become more willing to tell what they know and so that his actions destabilize and break - possibly leading family to suspect him when they previously did not, or leading him to try to contact police to change his story, or to get in touch with them to find out exactly what they know.

If this case continues on with no obvious break (which it probably will), you may expect at some point for a newspaper to profile Holeman as a "super cop" or highlighting his new homicide training or his success with other cases. This would be another strategy to destabilize the killer and get under his skin.

All MOO.

I agree with all of this. Two years after the fact, I think it’s safe to say it didn’t work. It probably is time for another change in direction, but I doubt after four years that touting Holeman as a super-cop is going to impress the killer much considering the killer is still running free.

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree with all of this. Two years after the fact, I think it’s safe to say it didn’t work. It probably is time for another change in direction, but I doubt after four years that touting Holeman as a super-cop is going to impress the killer much considering the killer is still running free.

Just to be devil's advocate though, I don't think it's about impressing him, it's about disrupting his potential actions OR making those close to him reflect on some little thing about his actions that seemed okay at the time but upon further thought seem off or suspect.

We saw a take on this in the HLN "extra" to their "Down the Hill" documentary. The criminologist on that panel offered her opinion that every time the case is featured in the news, that makes the killer reflect that he COULD be caught and that there could be evidence he left that he doesn't know about. She stated that in her opinion this process could actually help prevent him from entering the fantasy cycle where he offends again. Here's where you can listen to her comments:

This is would be an example of destabilization of the killer. And since we don't know if there have been further incidents related to this offender, perhaps in that sense it is working - but that's yet to be determined.

 

[minazoe]

The people of Indiana deserve an update by law enforcement regarding JBC.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just to be devil's advocate though, I don't think it's about impressing him, it's about disrupting his potential actions OR making those close to him reflect on some little thing about his actions that seemed okay at the time but upon further thought seem off or suspect.

We saw a take on this in the HLN "extra" to their "Down the Hill" documentary. The criminologist on that panel offered her opinion that every time the case is featured in the news, that makes the killer reflect that he COULD be caught and that there could be evidence he left that he doesn't know about. She stated that in her opinion this process could actually help prevent him from entering the fantasy cycle where he offends again. Here's where you can listen to her comments:

This is would be an example of destabilization of the killer. And since we don't know if there have been further incidents related to this offender, perhaps in that sense it is working - but that's yet to be determined.

I understand what you’re saying. I guess I am more impatient than you. I’m all for keeping this case in the public eye, and if it is keeping him from re-offending that’s great. Good idea. But destabilizing the killer and attempting to shake family and friends into awareness isn’t working. There has to be something else to add to it. If this is all LE can come up with....this is a very very cold case. Just my thoughts.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Not meaning any disrespect, but how would BP know that no one else saw the girls? What about the couple under the bridge?

There wasn't a couple under the bridge. Flannel Shirt Guy apparently referenced to Derrick a couple he saw "down by the bridge" meaning yonder on the trail, out of sight from the trailhead area where they were currently standing. Somehow the use of the word "down" in combination with images of a high railroad bridge leads to impression of the couple literally walking and arguing underneath the bridge. That's not the reality of the layout. Nobody is underneath the bridge on a regular basis. You can't get down there at all from the 501 trail and the 505 trail does go down to creek level but it veers away from the bridge to the right (west). YouTubers who film from underneath the bridge go out of their way to get there, walking along the creek bank in cluttered unkept conditions.

So many anecdotes from February 13 lead to wrongful impression of day to day realities on that trail. We've got Cheyenne crossing the bridge roughly an hour after Abby and Libby. That lends to flawed belief that the trails are popular and the bridge is regularly crossed. We've got reports of "down under the bridge." That lends to visual of people strolling underneath the bridge at the same time as all those people crossing the bridge. Like waving up at bridge crossers as they wave to you down below. That's why so many followers of this case are flabbergasted that nobody saw anything and nobody heard anything.

Meanwhile it's an isolated low attended area in a town of 3000. Abby and Libby arrived at 1:40ish and were well onto the bridge by 2:07. They used the side entrance instead of walking all the way from Freedom Bridge. In combination those variables mean anecdotes are unnecessary and worthless. Within that length of time it would be startling if anyone did see them, not surprising that anyone did not.

 

[SMK777]

The people of Indiana deserve an update by law enforcement regarding JBC.

They can’t update if they’re stuck. There’s a strong possibility that they can’t solidly connect him, but they can’t rule him out, either. I can’t recall now which interview it was, or what LE person said it, but I definitely recall that it was said to the effect of, nobody is fully cleared until it’s solved (my own words, but this is the general gist of what was said).

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Is the slope on that hill so deep that he couldn’t see if he had a viable path down? cuz otherwise all he had to do was take it ... IMO he doesn’t need to be local to spot the getaway route

I recommend this Julie Melvin video from 3 weeks after the murders. It's the best view of what conditions looked like on February 13, and therefore what the girls would have seen beyond the bridge and what Bridge Guy would have seen down the hill. Begin at roughly 4:30

The gravel access road is extremely prominent. That's what always stands out to me when I refer to that video. Contrast to my visit in November 2019 when it was covered with fall leaves and blended in with the terrain. Minus the gravel access road I think Bridge Guy might have rationalized that the area down the hill was a suitable spot for the murders, despite thin tree cover. But given a road like that immediately above him he has to look for a secluded spot not far away. I don't think it would take taken long to isolate the area immediately beyond the creek. He can walk to the edge of the creek on reconnaissance and instantly see that tree cover on the far side is many multiples that of the near side.

Of course, he could have known that already if he's a local or frequent visitor.

 

[JnRyan]

Besides correcting the inaccuracy here about Holeman, I have to say that a lot of us here totally misread the purpose of the April 2019 press conference.

Each previous press conference was for the primary purpose of informing the public about what was going on in the investigation. If you expected the April press conference to also be informational and aimed at the average person, then it would have left you mostly confused, because while some of it was aimed at reassuring the families/Delphi community and possibly was ad-libbed (the part about The Shack and "not what they are experiencing today"), IMO most of it was crafted with a single purpose: destabilization of the killer.

IMO the investigators were letting the killer know that they are aware of the vehicle at the CPS building and that they are aware that the video does not accurately capture how he usually appears. They hammered home the following images: "two LITTLE girls," "only a coward," "we know this was about power." And finally, there was the phrase Carter apparently planned to say but didn't: "we have a witness" (which was in the ISP press release from the conference quoted as part of his remarks). See the witness comment (which was never said) here: New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

It's not a Madison Avenue campaign, it's an FBI-directed campaign. The primary focus was NOT getting info out to the public so strangers (like us) can help solve it. It's so people close to this guy become more willing to tell what they know and so that his actions destabilize and break - possibly leading family to suspect him when they previously did not, or leading him to try to contact police to change his story, or to get in touch with them to find out exactly what they know.

If this case continues on with no obvious break (which it probably will), you may expect at some point for a newspaper to profile Holeman as a "super cop" or highlighting his new homicide training or his success with other cases. This would be another strategy to destabilize the killer and get under his skin.

All MOO.

OK, I don't know what you mean by the 'inaccuracy' about Holeman. Can you name an interview he has given since before the April 2019? I haven't seen or read one in the media. Just personal opinion, but I believe LE has moved on from Holeman. He got promoted? Transferred? Don't know, but there may be a chance that LE involved is going to be seeing more of Sheriff Leazenby instead. But as far as an accurate statement that Holeman has not been speaking or giving interviews, I believe that is an accurate statement. If you know of one since April 2019 please provide a link.

I know, like most of us on here, believe that LE probably did not consult with a Madison Avenue agency. It's a turn of phrase or hyperbolization for a press conference that, to me, seemed to be a much different approach than previous ones on the Delphi murders or the Flora fire. The destabilization effect would seem to weigh heavily on the evidence collected and the FBI or ISP profile of this guy. ISP Superintendent Carter stated that they possibly talked to the killer. (With over 50K in tips it would seem to be highly probable.) But we may have a person like Raymond Rowe (murder of Christy Mirack) or the Golden State Killer who hasn't spoken to anyone. I hope it had a major destabilization effect on this killer. OTH, if he hasn't spoken to anyone, the car at the CPS was not his (still not identified, I believe), LE hasn't spoken to him and he lives in a major metro area an hour or more away from Delphi I doubt if he is going to be affected. (But it is worth the shot - nothing ventured, nothing gained.) I also believe that in addition to the destabilization effort LE was attempting to put a positive spin on some previous missteps from early on - release of a sketch that they had very early on and late appeal to the public on the car at the CPS building. IOW, they got handed lemons and tried to make lemonade. (That's just another turn of a phrase, BTW, so don't take that one literally, too, I don't believe anyone is going to believe they were actually making lemonade in the task force room.)

 

[JnRyan]

There wasn't a couple under the bridge. Flannel Shirt Guy apparently referenced to Derrick a couple he saw "down by the bridge" meaning yonder on the trail, out of sight from the trailhead area where they were currently standing. Somehow the use of the word "down" in combination with images of a high railroad bridge leads to impression of the couple literally walking and arguing underneath the bridge. That's not the reality of the layout. Nobody is underneath the bridge on a regular basis. You can't get down there at all from the 501 trail and the 505 trail does go down to creek level but it veers away from the bridge to the right (west). YouTubers who film from underneath the bridge go out of their way to get there, walking along the creek bank in cluttered unkept conditions.

So many anecdotes from February 13 lead to wrongful impression of day to day realities on that trail. We've got Cheyenne crossing the bridge roughly an hour after Abby and Libby. That lends to flawed belief that the trails are popular and the bridge is regularly crossed. We've got reports of "down under the bridge." That lends to visual of people strolling underneath the bridge at the same time as all those people crossing the bridge. Like waving up at bridge crossers as they wave to you down below. That's why so many followers of this case are flabbergasted that nobody saw anything and nobody heard anything.

Meanwhile it's an isolated low attended area in a town of 3000. Abby and Libby arrived at 1:40ish and were well onto the bridge by 2:07. They used the side entrance instead of walking all the way from Freedom Bridge. In combination those variables mean anecdotes are unnecessary and worthless. Within that length of time it would be startling if anyone did see them, not surprising that anyone did not.

Thanks for that explanation. I don't know why the arguing couple under the bridge keeps coming up.

 

[Yemelyan]

OK, I don't know what you mean by the 'inaccuracy' about Holeman. Can you name an interview he has given since before the April 2019? I haven't seen or read one in the media. Just personal opinion, but I believe LE has moved on from Holeman. He got promoted? Transferred? Don't know, but there may be a chance that LE involved is going to be seeing more of Sheriff Leazenby instead. But as far as an accurate statement that Holeman has not been speaking or giving interviews, I believe that is an accurate statement. If you know of one since April 2019 please provide a link.

I know, like most of us on here, believe that LE probably did not consult with a Madison Avenue agency. It's a turn of phrase or hyperbolization for a press conference that, to me, seemed to be a much different approach than previous ones on the Delphi murders or the Flora fire. The destabilization effect would seem to weigh heavily on the evidence collected and the FBI or ISP profile of this guy. ISP Superintendent Carter stated that they possibly talked to the killer. (With over 50K in tips it would seem to be highly probable.) But we may have a person like Raymond Rowe (murder of Christy Mirack) or the Golden State Killer who hasn't spoken to anyone. I hope it had a major destabilization effect on this killer. OTH, if he hasn't spoken to anyone, the car at the CPS was not his (still not identified, I believe), LE hasn't spoken to him and he lives in a major metro area an hour or more away from Delphi I doubt if he is going to be affected. (But it is worth the shot - nothing ventured, nothing gained.) I also believe that in addition to the destabilization effort LE was attempting to put a positive spin on some previous missteps from early on - release of a sketch that they had very early on and late appeal to the public on the car at the CPS building. IOW, they got handed lemons and tried to make lemonade. (That's just another turn of a phrase, BTW, so don't take that one literally, too, I don't believe anyone is going to believe they were actually making lemonade in the task force room.)

You said: Detective Holeman wasn't seen at the April 2019 press conference. That's your inaccuracy. He was photographed there, by the Kokomo Tribune (and likely others...that just happened to be the first image I saw when I googled "Delphi press conference April 2019.").

I provided other examples from 2020 with Supt. Carter talking about Holeman's leadership of this investigation. So - public interview or no interview, he was still involved well after you claim he "disappeared."

It's this post, which you probably didn't see: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

 

[Awsi Dooger]

The primary focus was NOT getting info out to the public so strangers (like us) can help solve it. It's so people close to this guy become more willing to tell what they know and so that his actions destabilize and break

That was a great summary. Also, far more likely than not the presser wasn't aimed at a specific someone, determined to rattle and shake a false alibi. It was aimed at the conscience of an unknown someone, bringing them out in the first place.

 

[Yemelyan]

That was a great summary. Also, far more likely than not the presser wasn't aimed at a specific someone, determined to rattle and shake a false alibi. It was aimed at the conscience of an unknown someone, bringing them out in the first place.

Bingo.

And getting that unknown someone out and talking, or even realizing what they know, could be a long process that yes, requires patience from investigators.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[Barbieshell]

I must say that I've been researching and reading a lot about this case of late (It's amazing how much info is out there tbh), I'm starting to move away from JBC as a suspect and leaning more towards one of the original folks that may have been a POI for many reasons. As Doug Carter said in his press conferences "I think he's hiding in plain sight", "he may be in this room", "We were onto something from the beginning".........
I think he was local, I think he may have been a member of the search party, I think he looks like OBG in a way, maybe a tad older than the age range given.

JMOO, I may be wrong but I'm hoping they let us know about JBC asap. If It's not JBC then they need to push on - but I truly think they had someone in mind that set their spidey senses off from the get go, they just don't have enough evidence to prove it was him.

 

[Barbieshell]

That was a great summary. Also, far more likely than not the presser wasn't aimed at a specific someone, determined to rattle and shake a false alibi. It was aimed at the conscience of an unknown someone, bringing them out in the first place.

I worry about the scenario where someone gave someone an alibi and say the someone that gave the alibi is now deceased ? not the best scenario for LE I guess.

 

[UnderstandBlue]

Just to be devil's advocate though, I don't think it's about impressing him, it's about disrupting his potential actions OR making those close to him reflect on some little thing about his actions that seemed okay at the time but upon further thought seem off or suspect.

We saw a take on this in the HLN "extra" to their "Down the Hill" documentary. The criminologist on that panel offered her opinion that every time the case is featured in the news, that makes the killer reflect that he COULD be caught and that there could be evidence he left that he doesn't know about. She stated that in her opinion this process could actually help prevent him from entering the fantasy cycle where he offends again. Here's where you can listen to her comments:

This is would be an example of destabilization of the killer. And since we don't know if there have been further incidents related to this offender, perhaps in that sense it is working - but that's yet to be determined.

Oh my goodness why would they decline genetic genealogy?

 

[Yemelyan]

I worry about the scenario where someone gave someone an alibi and say the someone that gave the alibi is now deceased ? not the best scenario for LE I guess.

Just my way of thinking about this, but...if police think you killed somebody based on evidence that they have developed, and your only defense is that there's one person who gave you an alibi, but that person is now dead? Then the only person who should be worried - is you.

A good alibi is when you were at work at the time of a murder and your work has cameras that can't be tampered that show who was there. A good alibi is that you were at a store or restaurant at the time of the murder and multiple people who have no interest in whether you're innocent or guilty can vouch that you were there. A not great alibi is when one other person says you were with them and that person is now dead, because dead people can't testify in your defense.

IMO people are charged all the time who have "alibis." It's up to the prosecution to show through questioning of the alibi witness that their testimony is untrustworthy. My perspective is, if your alibi is based on just one person's word and there's no corroborating evidence that they are correct - but there is other incriminating evidence that you did the crime - if LE can get an indictment, they are going to charge you.

 

[SMK777]

JMOO, I may be wrong but I'm hoping they let us know about JBC asap. If It's not JBC then they need to push on - but I truly think they had someone in mind that set their spidey senses off from the get go, they just don't have enough evidence to prove it was him.

The question is, whether JBC or perhaps a local who has been “hiding in plain sight” from the beginning, what are they going to do if they don’t have solid evidence (it happens).

Whoever BG is, this case needs a real break, something that will end this impasse. I don’t know if it could be someone talking, or something found after suddenly bubbling up to the surface — but I wish it would happen.