Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. taylorss

    taylorss Well-Known Member

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    IMO maybe he was homeless / bumming around the spot for a few days, then he’d have the lay of the land.

    But did he really demonstrate mastery of the territory in some way? how? AFAIK he just had to look - & right there was a way to isolate the girls by walking them down the hill. Then fade back into whatever he’d been up to there before

    Is the slope on that hill so deep that he couldn’t see if he had a viable path down? cuz otherwise all he had to do was take it ... IMO he doesn’t need to be local to spot the getaway route
     


  2. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is for decades people did indeed do that, stepping on to the "bumpouts" on either side of the bridge when a train would cross, if need be.

    The bridge has been a local "draw" of sorts for a long time, then may have been less so after abandonment and what is now the main trail became terribly overgrown. Maybe people accessed it from the SE end, in fact I've read that's where people have parked to go fishing in the past.

    JMO
     
  3. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    Correct, it was an access road for the Monon RR, then other RR's until abandonment.
     
  4. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    Figured I might share these, I researched the gorge area a few years ago on this great site. Lots of historical aerial photos and topo maps.

    All images courtesy HistoricAerials.com

    Historic Aerials: Viewer

    First image is from 1961 and shows the gravel pit is clearly visible, the Girard Trail was a driveway back then which led to a property in the gorge, there may have been an access road to the bridge which paralleled the line on the north side, what is now the main trail. Also of note is the top of the driveway is the short section of trail where the girls were dropped off.

    On the site it's easy to just sweep over to see, say, where C.R. 300 went into town, it was drastically different in the 90's. My hunch is the farm parcels were sold off, by the 90's Andersons and a few small businesses were right there, plus the CPS building (open by '94). So the alignment for 300 was changed to handle heavier traffic at that end of it, including a change as to how it met Old 25.

    2nd image is from 1981 and shows what might be a house at the end of the drive on the south side of the creek.

    3rd image is a topo map with my own labels you can see if you zoom in, roughly where certain things are along there. I like it because I think it helps understand how steep, and not-so-steep, the gorge is along there at various points.

    JMO
     

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    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  5. news buff

    news buff Well-Known Member

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    Curious about the "foreign license plate" too. How odd.
     
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  6. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 I'm the same as always.

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    I meant non-IN, plate from a different state.
     
  7. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 I'm the same as always.

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    What, if BG once did a harmless kayak tour and he found the "gully" within RL's property interesting and useful for his future evil purposes (if recognizable from the creek)? Perhaps he is a "gully-nerd", who knows. Getting there and back (to bridge or crime scene) didn't require much study for him, possibly. It can be his own talent, which is, why he can quickly memorize paths.
     
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  8. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 I'm the same as always.

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    Non-IN, I meant. But I only guessed, it might have been from a different state perhaps. I didn't mean, the driver or killer is living outside of IN.
     
  9. news buff

    news buff Well-Known Member

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    Out of state. I misunderstood.
     
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  10. sandy_80

    sandy_80 Well-Known Member

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    the big problem I have with handling of second sketch
    so there was a witness.. but where was the suspect seen is not disclosed ?
    who says he was seen in a location that is relevant to this crime ?
    also this witness can be
    unreliable
    not mentally stable
    or simply a liar who might be interested in manipulation .
    yet they decide to take their word ....without using causionary phrases like POI or interested to talk to this person
     
  11. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I think both sketches have no bearing in this case at all because LE has completely mishandled them.
    The first sketch is negated by the second one. By coming out with a second, completely different sketch, LE was basically saying they have no confidence in that first sketch. They even said as much after the April 2019 press conference. Then they muddled it even more by suggesting we combine the two sketches and meld them together. Yea, that’ll play well in court.
    The second sketch is negated if for no other reason than we have been given no real context for it. As @sandy_80 said, not knowing where or the circumstances for the sketch leaves us with pretty much nothing. Also, LE’s suggestion we combine it with sketch one just shows they aren’t real sure about it either.
    Just my thoughts.
     
  12. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    Right, the assertion that BG could be both sketches combined really does zero to inspire confidence. I think the video/audio are of far greater importance.
     
  13. jg580

    jg580 Active Member

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    Totally agree with this. Personally, I only see the first released sketch as somewhat resembling BG on video but when they want us to consider that he could look like some combo of the 2 (which to me look like 2 completely different people) makes me feel like perhaps neither sketch is of much value. Such a sad and frustrating case :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  14. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

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    You're not alone in that regard. As time has passed I'm starting to believe the whole "New Direction" seems like buzz term created by a Madison Avenue marketing agency to try and put a positive spin on the status on the investigation at that point. I did note that ISP lead investigator, 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman was not seen at that April PC and hasn't been seen or heard from since before that PC.
     
  15. taylorss

    taylorss Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with all this .... as soon as I saw “young BG,” the sketches in this matter went on ignore.

    IMO the idea of LE presenting these sketches for the supposed truth of their contents is absurd. Esp YBG, that is a cartoon!

    They’re up to something here but IDK what & never will unless they say. Hence .... ignore. MOO
     
  16. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    This is incorrect.

    Sgt. Holeman was at the 2019 "new direction" press conference. He was sitting very close to the podium. You can see him in this attached image from the Kokomo Tribune (he's seated next to the standing man in yellow). Source of the image: 'Only a coward would do such a thing': Police release new info in Delphi murders

    We know Holeman was still leading the case in early 2020 because, in this video interview of the ISP Road Show with Carter, which was filmed on 1.28.20, the participants talk about Sgt. Holeman leading the case and the great job he is doing, along with fellow ISP detective Jay Harper (check out around the 6 minute 51 second mark):



    Finally, in the Carroll County Comet Q&A this February 2021, TL was asked who comprises the current team of investigators and though he didn't name names, he said there were two detectives from the ISP still currently assigned to the case. So we can think that most likely one of these is Holeman. Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Come
     

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  17. infinit

    infinit Well-Known Member

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    From the sketch press conference I got the impression that they were attempting to target a very specific person(s), that the belief was it would be apparent to the person(s) they were targetting who it was and the fact it left everyone else a bit confused was irrelevant because that wasn't the target audience.

    The longer it has gone on and it appears it has triggered nothing, I find it strange they've not clarified some of the common questions that came off the back of the 2nd sketch because no one has a clue what to think anymore.

    JMO.
     
  18. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I keep hoping that whatever LE is doing behind the scenes is clearheaded, precise and organized, because what they present to the public is confusing and muddled. It is mind boggling to me how many times they have had to come out and correct or clarify something. Sometimes it takes them multiple tries to get it right. Do they ever proofread things or talk to each other about what they are trying to say? They need a good PR person.
     
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  19. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I felt the same way about the press conference, that they knew who it was. Now...it is all puzzling as to what they were trying to do. Some context would help for sure. Anything would help.
     
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  20. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    Besides correcting the inaccuracy here about Holeman, I have to say that a lot of us here totally misread the purpose of the April 2019 press conference.

    Each previous press conference was for the primary purpose of informing the public about what was going on in the investigation. If you expected the April press conference to also be informational and aimed at the average person, then it would have left you mostly confused, because while some of it was aimed at reassuring the families/Delphi community and possibly was ad-libbed (the part about The Shack and "not what they are experiencing today"), IMO most of it was crafted with a single purpose: destabilization of the killer.

    IMO the investigators were letting the killer know that they are aware of the vehicle at the CPS building and that they are aware that the video does not accurately capture how he usually appears. They hammered home the following images: "two LITTLE girls," "only a coward," "we know this was about power." And finally, there was the phrase Carter apparently planned to say but didn't: "we have a witness" (which was in the ISP press release from the conference quoted as part of his remarks). See the witness comment (which was never said) here: New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

    It's not a Madison Avenue campaign, it's an FBI-directed campaign. The primary focus was NOT getting info out to the public so strangers (like us) can help solve it. It's so people close to this guy become more willing to tell what they know and so that his actions destabilize and break - possibly leading family to suspect him when they previously did not, or leading him to try to contact police to change his story, or to get in touch with them to find out exactly what they know.

    If this case continues on with no obvious break (which it probably will), you may expect at some point for a newspaper to profile Holeman as a "super cop" or highlighting his new homicide training or his success with other cases. This would be another strategy to destabilize the killer and get under his skin.

    All MOO.
     
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