Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, Nov 2020 #7

[OEJ-JEO]

This seems to conflict with the article ZaZa just posted. I find it extraordinary that the investigation continues, but clearly not all details have been tidied away.

Protocols! These things take time, in France as elsewhere. The British press are obviously badgering the pathologists in Toulouse for a scoop, and they're refusing to be rushed. There are procedures to follow, and the autopsy is only one part of the investigation. That said, M. Amunzateguy wouldn't have announced that he believed the death was accidental unless he had very good reason.

 

[pineapple23]

That said, M. Amunzateguy wouldn't have announced that he believed the death was accidental unless he had very good reason.

Plus I doubt there would be talk about releasing the body for cremation if they weren't drawing to an official conclusion.

 

[Mel79]

The context was two French friends climbing to the summit from the scree slope on the French side. They had an "Ollivier" climbing guidebook with them, but all it says is:

"emprunter à gauche un large couloir de neige ou d'éboulis qui permet d'atteindre un éperon d'où l'on gagne le sommet"

"follow a broad couloir of snow or scree to the left, allowing you to reach a spur from which you reach the summit."

That is, the couloir is snow in winter and scree in summer, and they climbed in August. They had ice axes though, for use on the scree. They missed the recommended route on the way up, but one of them found it marked by cairns while descending.

What I have looked for through some of the earlier threads and news reports is what was the weather the 23rd November 2020 in the area near the Port de Glere, the day Esther was likely to be coming up it. I've seen posts saying in general that the weather was good but nothing specific apart from this tweet from the Sunday Times 24th July. It makes me wonder if Esther was late coming up and encountered bad weather. There was likely already snow on the French side.

 

[Federico_A]

I can imagine him doing exactly that. "You can find a needle in a haystack, if you're willing to study every strand, one at a time." He'd already searched some of the more accessible areas around the pic, and it took him two weeks searching every day from the discovery of the skull fragment to locate the body.


Edit:

PS

"DC located Esther's remains: he didn't reach them. It's not even necessary to assume that he reached the point she fell from. He reached a point from which he was able to see them."

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/c...2295_1033151a-8a05-4d58-9e5e-301f04525a30.jpg

If he did, he would also have had to search the whole ridge between Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere, and Sacroux as well. The off-path possibilities are infinite and it would take forever. Coupled with the sheer unlikihood that Esther would have gone up the summit of Glere alone in the first place, the whole thing seems uncredible to me.

If he found her by scanning with a spotting scope I'd be surprised. I'm assuming they did at least an eyeball search in the beginning and the fact she wasn't found surely means she was hidden behind rocks and only visible from a particular place, which I guess is directly above.

 

[Federico_A]

Just wondering about the distribution of the things around her. Surely that is significant.

If her pack was on her back when she fell, then most likely it was an accident - things probably burst out on impact.
If her pack was separate from the body though, then either:
- the whole thing came off as she fell (hard to imagine as 20-30m isn't that far - even if she only had it around her shoulders and not strapped elsewhere)
- she threw it down first (implying suicide)
- it was thrown down after her (implying murder).

Presumably all this will come out in the inquest.

 

[RickshawFan]

What I have looked for through some of the earlier threads and news reports is what was the weather the 23rd November 2020 in the area near the Port de Glere, the day Esther was likely to be coming up it. I've seen posts saying in general that the weather was good but nothing specific apart from this tweet from the Sunday Times 24th July. It makes me wonder if Esther was late coming up and encountered bad weather. There was likely already snow on the French side.

If not snow, perhaps hard frost. A hard frost might be just as bad as far as making headway, especially in fabric shoes (=no support) with bare soles (per LE). You'd be sliding all around.
In snow, ED's microspikes would have been useful, because they can grip the trail, although the snow would have had to build for several inches to get purchase. She doesn't seem to have put them on, however.
Snow might certainly have hidden the remains. I agree that localized climate phenomena like snow has not appeared in statements by LE or anywhere else, though it was discussed on WS some months back.
The nights were well below freezing at that point in time.
I'm just not sure LE wouldn't have mentioned it, if they'd encountered snow during early search days. They ended the search for the season as snow was setting in, but that was after a few days of searching.

 

[Federico_A]

What I have looked for through some of the earlier threads and news reports is what was the weather the 23rd November 2020 in the area near the Port de Glere, the day Esther was likely to be coming up it. I've seen posts saying in general that the weather was good but nothing specific apart from this tweet from the Sunday Times 24th July. It makes me wonder if Esther was late coming up and encountered bad weather. There was likely already snow on the French side.

Or could it be that the Spanish police are finding excuses to cover up their embarrassment at not finding her?

 

[OEJ-JEO]

If he did, he would also have had to search the whole ridge between Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere, and Sacroux as well. The off-path possibilities are infinite and it would take forever. Coupled with the sheer unlikihood that Esther would have gone up the summit of Glere alone in the first place, the whole thing seems uncredible to me.

Not after the skull fragment was found. While the possibility vultures were involved would have complicated matters, the location of the skull fragment on the screes below the Pic de la Glère would have led DC to focus his attention on that area, particularly uphill from the 2200m contour. It still took two weeks to locate the body.

If he found her by scanning with a spotting scope I'd be surprised. I'm assuming they did at least an eyeball search in the beginning and the fact she wasn't found surely means she was hidden behind rocks and only visible from a particular place, which I guess is directly above.

The assumption in the early part of the search was that Esther would have stuck to the path. DC was convinced of it. It's already been noted that his early searches seemed focused on the woods on both sides of the border, notably below the chemin de l'imperatrice. Yet here he is (perhaps in June, to judge by the snow cover) on the Pic de Sacroux looking out over the thawing slopes of the Pic de la Glère with a spotting scope. We know that Esther's belongings were somewhat scattered ("des objets appartenant à la victime ont été retrouvés le long de la paroi"). DC located Esther's body and directed gendarmes to it. I think it's quite possible a scope was involved, although we can't know from which vantage point.

 

[pineapple23]

Just wondering about the distribution of the things around her. Surely that is significant.

If her pack was on her back when she fell, then most likely it was an accident - things probably burst out on impact.
If her pack was separate from the body though, then either:
- the whole thing came off as she fell (hard to imagine as 20-30m isn't that far - even if she only had it around her shoulders and not strapped elsewhere)
- she threw it down first (implying suicide)
- it was thrown down after her (implying murder).

I'm pretty sure that the investigators who went over the scene were aware of all these factors - and their preliminary analysis was a fall - likely accidental.
Imo it would need a curve ball - ie from the more detailed forensics or some unexpected evidence - for there to be a different formal conclusion.
But let's wait and see.
I think it's the nature of the sleuthing beast to almost want things to to be 'not as they seem'. But sometimes things are what they appear to be.

 

[tennyson77]

Someone earlier mentioned a bunch of different high resolution mapping products, and one of them was Ace. I was looking at that one, trying to get a better look at the pic.

One thing that caught my eye is something at the bottom of where someone might fall if they went up the path from the south side by the small lake and then tried navigating up the peak. I can't tell what it is, and it could be snow or a boulder or something, but it's also where something sort of would naturally fall if they were on that ledge, and it's hidden by the landscape around it. I only mention this since it looks grey, and people said Esther's backpack was grey.

Like I said, it could have just been a bit of snow, but I don't see any other snow at that level in the surrounding areas. And if you look at the people in the top left corner walking down the Port, the object on the ground seems roughly the same size. Unfortunately I can't tell what date that picture was taken, but there is snow around the Port, and also on that previous pic that Esther climbed... and there are walkers about going down the Port. So it seems to be like early summer or late fall, but perhaps not this year.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

Someone earlier mentioned a bunch of different high resolution mapping products, and one of them was Ace. I was looking at that one, trying to get a better look at the pic.

One thing that caught my eye is something at the bottom of where someone might fall if they went up the path from the south side by the small lake and then tried navigating up the peak. I can't tell what it is, and it could be snow or a boulder or something, but it's also where something sort of would naturally fall if they were on that ledge, and it's hidden by the landscape around it. I only mention this since it looks grey, and people said Esther's backpack was grey.

Like I said, it could have just been a bit of snow, but I don't see any other snow at that level in the surrounding areas. And if you look at the people in the top left corner walking down the Port, the object on the ground seems roughly the same size. Unfortunately I can't tell what date that picture was taken, but there is snow around the Port, and also on that previous pic that Esther climbed... and there are walkers about going down the Port. So it seems to be like early summer or late fall, but perhaps not this year.

I think that's just a little patch of late season snow.

If you look at the same area on géoportail you can see a larger patch of snow persisting in the shade of that gully. The other problem is that it's often hard to tell which direction is down on these aerial photographs, but I think a fall into that gully would have to come from a point much higher on the ridge, and your blue line has Esther falling uphill. Compare with the big photo here, and the view up the scree here, and this one, looking down from the Pic de Sacroux.

I do think a fall into the upper part of that gully is a possibility, but it would have to be from at least the shoulder of the ridge, just below the summit slab.

 

[Federico_A]

I'm pretty sure that the investigators who went over the scene were aware of all these factors - and their preliminary analysis was a fall - likely accidental.
Imo it would need a curve ball - ie from the more detailed forensics or some unexpected evidence - for there to be a different formal conclusion.
But let's wait and see.
I think it's the nature of the sleuthing beast to almost want things to to be 'not as they seem'. But sometimes things are what they appear to be.

It's certainly in my nature not to believe that the information I hear from the authorities is complete or even commonsensical. In fact, it's clear that they usually withhold the most pertinent information in order to make sure no one else gets to the truth first.

To take the example of Libby Squire again, the information they drip-fed the public was so patchy that it certainly hampered public assistance. Even so, I told the Hull police (through a friend I know who was working on the case) that the body would have been dumped in the river - I even suggested the spot. They didn't listen and continued to dredge lakes and reedbeds during which time the body drifted very slowly out into the Humber and was almost lost to sea before it was spotted by chance. By that time the body was beyond forensic analysis. Great job, plod! And no, I don't believe the Spanish police are likely to be any sharper.

 

[tennyson77]

I think that's just a little patch of late season snow.

If you look at the same area on géoportail you can see a larger patch of snow persisting in the shade of that gully. The other problem is that it's often hard to tell which direction is down on these aerial photographs, but I think a fall into that gully would have to come from a point much higher on the ridge, and your blue line has Esther falling uphill. Compare with the big photo here, and the view up the scree here, and this one, looking down from the Pic de Sacroux.

I do think a fall into the upper part of that gully is a possibility, but it would have to be from at least the shoulder of the ridge, just below the summit slab.

Ahh ok, good to know, thanks.

 

[Federico_A]

Someone earlier mentioned a bunch of different high resolution mapping products, and one of them was Ace. I was looking at that one, trying to get a better look at the pic.

One thing that caught my eye is something at the bottom of where someone might fall if they went up the path from the south side by the small lake and then tried navigating up the peak. I can't tell what it is, and it could be snow or a boulder or something, but it's also where something sort of would naturally fall if they were on that ledge, and it's hidden by the landscape around it. I only mention this since it looks grey, and people said Esther's backpack was grey.

Like I said, it could have just been a bit of snow, but I don't see any other snow at that level in the surrounding areas. And if you look at the people in the top left corner walking down the Port, the object on the ground seems roughly the same size. Unfortunately I can't tell what date that picture was taken, but there is snow around the Port, and also on that previous pic that Esther climbed... and there are walkers about going down the Port. So it seems to be like early summer or late fall, but perhaps not this year.

That would have been the thread-winner... if only.
Difficult to judge the verticals, but I think that area is in ball park though.
Finally getting a good view of the cliff. Looks like a sheer drop to the scree. 30m?

 

[poirotoupierrot]

That would have been the thread-winner... if only.
Difficult to judge the verticals, but I think that area is in ball park though.
Finally getting a good view of the cliff. Looks like a sheer drop to the scree. 30m?

I just keep thinking of the moment she reaches the edge thinking it's a turning-off point, slipping and then the fall. I can't lose that image now, unfortunately. I was with (was it Otto's?) idea about the two lakes and taking the wrong turn. Is that still the prevailing theory?

 

[poirotoupierrot]

I'm pretty sure that the investigators who went over the scene were aware of all these factors - and their preliminary analysis was a fall - likely accidental.
Imo it would need a curve ball - ie from the more detailed forensics or some unexpected evidence - for there to be a different formal conclusion.
But let's wait and see.
I think it's the nature of the sleuthing beast to almost want things to to be 'not as they seem'. But sometimes things are what they appear to be.

There are lots of things that could cause her bag to be separate from her. Taking it off to look for something? Falling with it in the accident and then the effects of weather and snow - and Everything Else, without wanting to go into gory details. I think I've replied to wrong post - I meant my response for your quote from Federico...

 

[OEJ-JEO]

I was with (was it Otto's?) idea about the two lakes and taking the wrong turn. Is that still the prevailing theory?

I don't think so. The problem is that it would require passing the smaller lake on its (impassable) far side at a point where the correct path is clear on the ground:

Puerto de la Glera lac de la muntanyeta (That's actually the Ibón de la Solana de Gorgutes)
Puerto de la Glera (19)
Puerto de la Glera (77)

To climb the pic would take a very deliberate effort, I think, when the path on the ground is clear, and so much easier than the alternative.

 

[Federico_A]

There are lots of things that could cause her bag to be separate from her. Taking it off to look for something? Falling with it in the accident and then the effects of weather and snow - and Everything Else, without wanting to go into gory details. I think I've replied to wrong post - I meant my response for your quote from Federico...

Of course. Speculation is a matter of probability - hence I used the word 'implies'.
For various reasons I believe it was an accident and I believe at least when they said the place she was found was 100m from the main path down the scree. If they did manage to botch that piece of information and it turns out she was clambering about on the upper reaches of Pic de la Glere alone at the end of November when the French side was in lockdown - well... I would have no words that this website would permit. I would just throw up my hands.

 

[Hatty]

It's certainly in my nature not to believe that the information I hear from the authorities is complete or even commonsensical. In fact, it's clear that they usually withhold the most pertinent information in order to make sure no one else gets to the truth first.

To take the example of Libby Squire again, the information they drip-fed the public was so patchy that it certainly hampered public assistance. Even so, I told the Hull police (through a friend I know who was working on the case) that the body would have been dumped in the river - I even suggested the spot. They didn't listen and continued to dredge lakes and reedbeds during which time the body drifted very slowly out into the Humber and was almost lost to sea before it was spotted by chance. By that time the body was beyond forensic analysis. Great job, plod! And no, I don't believe the Spanish police are likely to be any sharper.

The police are in possession of the facts of a case. There are reasons why they don’t release all information to the press since this could hinder an investigation. Why would they listen to a member of the public who, without the relevant information, tell them they know where a body is?! Imagine the waste of time and resources.

 

[ZaZara]

Of course. Speculation is a matter of probability - hence I used the word 'implies'.
For various reasons I believe it was an accident and I believe at least when they said the place she was found was 100m from the main path down the scree. If they did manage to botch that piece of information and it turns out she was clambering about on the upper reaches of Pic de la Glere alone at the end of November when the French side was in lockdown - well... I would have no words that this website would permit. I would just throw up my hands.

Lockdown has nothing to do with it.
As long as Esther (and others) started from the Spanish side and remained in the mountains, there was no problem at all.