Ah yes, Ramjet. A very interesting poster, ve-ry interesting.
Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7
- Thread starter pebige
- Start date
I did wonder why, if RH and CC were murdered in their tent, then why weren't they just left there, and burnt with the tent? Surely the fire could have been made to look accidental. But I suppose bullets could have still been found, even if stab wounds were obliterated.
IMO, GL was intent of full cremation, so he needed to head for a secluded, 'safe' place to carry that out.
Also, it would have meant police were alerted and a homicide case opened immediately, much more resources, pressure on witnesses, etc.
Whereas, mysteriously vanishing and, he probably hoped, no evidence whatever of a crime, it might just stay a low-key, unsolved bush mystery.
JMO
JudgeJudi
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This is an abbreviated version of one of my earlier posts to which I've now added comments.
Rule 1: Treat every firearm as loaded
Keep your finger off the trigger; always point the muzzle in a safe direction; open the action and inspect the chamber and magazine.
GL would have known the gun was loaded but RH could not have known this.
Rule 2: Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
Loaded or unloaded, always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
* Never point a firearm at anyone or at yourself.
We don't know whether or not RH was shot but CC's DNA was found on lead, confirmed to be part of a bullet, and lead fragments were found at the campsite. If GL approached RH with the gun, in all likelihood he would have been pointing it at RH and be the person who pulled the trigger. If RH tried to stop him from firing, IMO he either would have used his arm to push it away to the side if it was pointed at him or grabbed the muzzle. In either scenario, his finger wouldn't have been anywhere need the trigger, and simply trying to wrest the gun from GL wouldn't cause the trigger to be pulled. I believe GL did it intentionally. [This reminds me a bit of the Rust movie debacle, where Alec Baldwin denied pulling the trigger but the FBI proved a gun can't discharge unless the trigger is pulled].
Rule 3: Load a firearm only when ready to fire
Only load a firearm when you intend to use it and only in an area where it can be safely and legally discharged. Remember to unload it when you have used it.
* Do not load the chamber until you are ready to shoot.
* Unload completely - no rounds in the magazine or chamber - before leaving a shooting area or entering a hut or camp. Double check.
If he didn't unload the gun when he entered the campsite, then he clearly broke the last mentioned item above. If he loaded it in camp, then he did intend to shoot, but I don't see how it can be proven.
Rule 8: Never have loaded firearms in the car ... or camp
* Before entering a car, ...or camp completely unload your firearm.
* Ensure that the action is open and that there is no ammunition in either the breech or the magazine.
This rule was broken in its entirety.
Firearms Safety Code Booklet
Rule 1: Treat every firearm as loaded
Keep your finger off the trigger; always point the muzzle in a safe direction; open the action and inspect the chamber and magazine.
GL would have known the gun was loaded but RH could not have known this.
Rule 2: Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
Loaded or unloaded, always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
* Never point a firearm at anyone or at yourself.
We don't know whether or not RH was shot but CC's DNA was found on lead, confirmed to be part of a bullet, and lead fragments were found at the campsite. If GL approached RH with the gun, in all likelihood he would have been pointing it at RH and be the person who pulled the trigger. If RH tried to stop him from firing, IMO he either would have used his arm to push it away to the side if it was pointed at him or grabbed the muzzle. In either scenario, his finger wouldn't have been anywhere need the trigger, and simply trying to wrest the gun from GL wouldn't cause the trigger to be pulled. I believe GL did it intentionally. [This reminds me a bit of the Rust movie debacle, where Alec Baldwin denied pulling the trigger but the FBI proved a gun can't discharge unless the trigger is pulled].
Rule 3: Load a firearm only when ready to fire
Only load a firearm when you intend to use it and only in an area where it can be safely and legally discharged. Remember to unload it when you have used it.
* Do not load the chamber until you are ready to shoot.
* Unload completely - no rounds in the magazine or chamber - before leaving a shooting area or entering a hut or camp. Double check.
If he didn't unload the gun when he entered the campsite, then he clearly broke the last mentioned item above. If he loaded it in camp, then he did intend to shoot, but I don't see how it can be proven.
Rule 8: Never have loaded firearms in the car ... or camp
* Before entering a car, ...or camp completely unload your firearm.
* Ensure that the action is open and that there is no ammunition in either the breech or the magazine.
This rule was broken in its entirety.
Firearms Safety Code Booklet
emirates1957
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Seeing GL on the staff bus several times…..he is one large fit ”unit” he certainly wouldn’t need to bring a fire arm into the equation certainly not to intimidate two senior citizens. Totally agree with your statement.
Bats
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Love yr post jj...but .. he may be a rule breaker regarding firearm laws....
..the prosecution will need to prove his intention was to kill....and their evidence will need to obliterate a scenario of accident/self defence..
MOO
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JudgeJudi
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See p.18 #349 where I quoted the difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.
See also #354 where I quoted "To rely upon self-defence there must be evidence of an unjustified threat or use of force against an accused.
In a nutshell, the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent. IMO GL has no way of producing evidence of a threat or use of force against him. By the same token, I don't see how the prosecution can prove intent to murder.
At this stage, I'm guessing he'll be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
Bats
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I get the feeling the defence will be relying heavily on his word as evidence of an unjustified threat.
I too think it will be difficult for the prosecution to prove there was intent though i also think they are keeping their cards close to their chest at this point and have a lot more evidence that we are not privy to.
TootsieFootsie
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Mysterious high country shooting unsolved six years on
One of northeast Victoria's biggest mysteries remains unsolved six years after an elderly cyclist was gunned down while riding along a remote trail.
www.perthnow.com.au
Police are still scratching their heads after an elderly cyclist was gunned down in Victoria's northeast six years ago, in one of the state's enduring mysteries.
Kelvin Tennant was riding his motorised bicycle along the Myrtleford-Everton Rail Trail on February 18, 2017, when he was shot multiple times by a man who got out of a parked car.
The then 72-year-old was found by passing cyclists and rushed to Melbourne's Alfred Hospital, where doctors were able to remove two bullets from his body.
He lives with eyesight and hearing issues to this day.
Mr Tennant didn't get a good look at his attacker, but said he was hit by .22 calibre bullets fired from a pistol.
Maybe Kelvin needs his own thread ?
Detective Willy
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Hypothetically, if GL had been involved in previous murders, I believe that he would have disposed of the weapon.
He disposed of his trailer and repainted his vehicle after the double murders. I think he is too clever to keep a murder weapon that can be identified to previous crimes.
I really wonder if the weapon(s) used to kill Russell and Carol were still in the arsenal seized from his home?
"Weapons allegedly seized from Mr Lynn’s home include a semiautomatic pistol, two Ruger revolvers, a Winchester semiautomatic rifle, two 12-gauge shotguns, two lever-action rifles, 23 knives, two swords, two hatchets, a pickaxe and “numerous” metal cases of ammunition."
He disposed of his trailer and repainted his vehicle after the double murders. I think he is too clever to keep a murder weapon that can be identified to previous crimes.
I really wonder if the weapon(s) used to kill Russell and Carol were still in the arsenal seized from his home?
"Weapons allegedly seized from Mr Lynn’s home include a semiautomatic pistol, two Ruger revolvers, a Winchester semiautomatic rifle, two 12-gauge shotguns, two lever-action rifles, 23 knives, two swords, two hatchets, a pickaxe and “numerous” metal cases of ammunition."
KathPlumber
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I’m always surprised that no one brings this man’s disappearance up when the lists of missing individuals from around the state come
Up, even though he did go missing in a very different part of the state to the alpine region.
Murray McMillan was a vulnerable individual evidently, who went camping in a remote area and disappeared. The hut he was meant to be staying in was found burned down, and they found his car but not him.
Vic man missing for more than two weeks - 9News
Stories like these, plus Kelvin the man who was randomly shot, and the recent attack in Lal Lal forest on Sissy Austin definitely make a person uneasy about being anywhere in the bush alone!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11747159/amp/Sissy-Austin-shares-photos-attack-man-Lal-Lal-state-forest-near-Ballarat-Victoria.html
IMO jmo etc (and I’m a wuss!)
Up, even though he did go missing in a very different part of the state to the alpine region.
Murray McMillan was a vulnerable individual evidently, who went camping in a remote area and disappeared. The hut he was meant to be staying in was found burned down, and they found his car but not him.
Vic man missing for more than two weeks - 9News
Stories like these, plus Kelvin the man who was randomly shot, and the recent attack in Lal Lal forest on Sissy Austin definitely make a person uneasy about being anywhere in the bush alone!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11747159/amp/Sissy-Austin-shares-photos-attack-man-Lal-Lal-state-forest-near-Ballarat-Victoria.html
IMO jmo etc (and I’m a wuss!)
It will be interesting to hear what the prosecution puts forward as the motive/trigger for the Clay and Hill killings. That may strike a chord or two with police in relation to other unsolved deaths in remote areas, such as the one you mention.
And I will be surprised if GL explains or admits what his motive was, especially if he does a deal to change the murder charge to manslaughter.
Hard to say with this guy. I would have had him pegged to say nothing to police, let alone allow himself to be interviewed by them over a 4 day period.
I'm still of the (non lawyer!) opinion that his alleged actions regarding disposal of the bodies would preclude him from manslaughter eligibility in VIC.
Not at present but the ABC article below indicates it might be on the cards.
Push for 'no body, no release' law to keep secretive killers behind bars draws fire
A Victorian MP says it's time the state cracked down on prisoners who refuse to reveal where their victims remains are, but a legal organisation says the proposal flies in the face of the "basic ideology of the law".
www.abc.net.au
I sure do hope so! And even if a manslaughter plea is allowed, there is still the little matter of "interfering with a corpse" - what are the penalties for that?
Bats
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From memory, Borse Ristevski pleaded guilty in Melbourne to manslaughter on the day the murder trial was going to start. He had disposed of his wifes body in a very similar way. I think the prosecution in that case dropped the murder charge after his plea.
I personally can't see that happening here though. Hypothetically, if the manslaughter plea is for Carol's death, he'd still then need to somehow get around self defence for Russell's.
Ironically, his story will need to be 'unbelievable' to be a truthful one.
I'm not very familiar with the details of that case but, if the prosecution accepts a manslaughter plea, then I guess that signals to me that they were unsure of being able to convince a jury of murder beyond reasonable doubt, based on what they had by way of evidence.
Of course, a plea of guilty avoids a trial but it doesn't necessarily do justice to the victim and their family.