GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #4

[Megnut]

Note to self: if ever presenting before three judges in a court of appeals, don't refer to them as "you guys".

 

[WingsOverTX]

Note to self: if ever presenting before three judges in a court of appeals, don't refer to them as "you guys".

Awesome point. These defense attorneys need to up their game. That's been apparent from the git-go IMO.

I think the parents' trial will not go forward due to EC being charged as an adult. That takes away the parents' duty of care in this case.

Is it right IMO? No. I don't agree with it.

The appeals court in trying to determine parental culpability will likely find that the state itself removed it when they (I believe rightly) charged EC as an adult.

EC has pled guilty & awaits sentencing.

His parents not having been legally charged with neglect while raising their son is going to leave them free as birds. If the school had reported the family to the state's CPS instead of handling their observations of EC internally that could have invoked a duty of care & foreseeability. That did not happen.

Just reading the tea leaves after watching what I could of the hearing.

MOO

 

[JerseyGirl]

James & Jennifer Crumbley hearing to determine if couple will stand trial

DETROIT, Mich - A Court of Appeals will hear the case of James and Jennifer Crumbley on Tuesday.The two are facing four counts each of four counts of involunt

upnorthlive.com

 

[ilovewings]

Appeals judges focus on what Oxford shooter's parents didn't do

A 3-judge panel heard arguments Tuesday on if there is enough evidence for James and Jennifer Crumbley to stand trial for involuntary manslaughter.

www.detroitnews.com

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I think the parents' trial will not go forward due to EC being charged as an adult. That takes away the parents' duty of care in this case.

That disturbs me greatly. A clearly unhappy 14-year-old's last "hope" surely has to be that his own parents won't buy him a gun. Agree he made his choices and knew what he was doing and should face the consequences, but he was 14. It's just so very disturbing.

 

[MrsWatson]

Appeals Court grills Crumbley lawyers, cites 'plenty of warning signs'

Judges question why Ethan Crumbley's parents, charged with involuntary manslaughter in Oxford High shooting, bought a gun knowing their son was troubled.

eu.freep.com

During a one-hour hearing Tuesday, the court appeared focused on the Crumbleys’ actions — and inactions — noting the parents had bought their son the gun that was used in the shooting, despite knowing he was struggling mentally and hallucinating months earlier. Judges also questioned why the parents didn’t bring their son home from school when they were summoned over a troubling drawing he had made in math class on the morning of the shooting, why they didn’t hug him in the counselor’s office when they were called in over the violent drawing and why they didn’t check his backpack that day.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I still don't understand why none of the administration will be held accountable.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Arguments heard to appeals court if Crumbley parents can see trial for son's Oxford shooting

"These parents knew he had a fascination with guns. They knew he was gifted this gun days earlier, they knew of the graphic drawing that he made, and they knew that he was in crisis," said the assistant prosecutor. "Yet they did nothing."

www.fox2detroit.com

There is no decision today, but probably in about another. 45 to 60 days.

 

[ilovewings]

Arguments heard to appeals court if Crumbley parents can see trial for son's Oxford shooting

"These parents knew he had a fascination with guns. They knew he was gifted this gun days earlier, they knew of the graphic drawing that he made, and they knew that he was in crisis," said the assistant prosecutor. "Yet they did nothing."

www.fox2detroit.com

There is no decision today, but probably in about another. 45 to 60 days.

I don't think they will stand trial in this case. IMO there are several things that could make them responsible for his actions- I won't go over them since we all know what those things are including gifting him with a gun (duh) but this would be a precedent setting case, and if a Judge is going to rule that they should bear responsibility for his actions, it would have to be a very very strong case. We shall see.

 

[WingsOverTX]

I don't think they will stand trial in this case. IMO there are several things that could make them responsible for his actions- I won't go over them since we all know what those things are including gifting him with a gun (duh) but this would be a precedent setting case, and if a Judge is going to rule that they should bear responsibility for his actions, it would have to be a very very strong case. We shall see.

RBBM
Right? Whether the parents hugged him or not doesn't add weight to the prosecution's case, for instance. They've been in jail over a year. At least they've served some time away from society as payment for years of neglect of EC's emotional well-being.

I'd like to see them convicted but also feel this court will not want to use this particular case to set a precedent.

The main thing that tilts me the other way is his father's assumption when he heard of the school shooting that his son was the shooter. The willful denial these parents allowed themselves until it was too late is appalling.
MOO

 

[MrsWatson]

I think the parents do bear a great deal of responsibility, but I don't know if the law is precise enough for a successful prosecution.

I am not at all impressed with their legal representation so far.

Definitely will be a precedent setting case, however it goes.

moo

 

[Kingsley]

I was curious why the Michigan SC intervention in this case is unusual.

It's explained in this source dated 11-29-22:
CNN legal analyst Paul Callan said the court's order postponing the trial is "highly unusual," noting that courts customarily wait until court proceedings have concluded.

"The 'causation' issue in a criminal case is usually determined by a jury after hearing live witnesses in open court rather than by a panel of appellate judges," he said. The order, he continued, suggests a majority of judges have "serious concerns" that the parents' roles "may not be adequate to establish legal 'causation'" in their son's killings.

BBM

I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.
I don't think that accountability holds for parents when they acted reasonably responsibly (i.e., the bad seed scenario). JMO.
This is a strange case where my heart still hurts not only for the victims and what could have been for them but also for the life of the killer, like a seedling left to wither after sprouting (again, not saying that he should be free to harm others). Normally, I just say good riddance to the killers after conviction.
Sorry for the repeated rant but this just doesn't resolve if charges are dropped.

 

[ilovewings]

I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.
I don't think that accountability holds for parents when they acted reasonably responsibly (i.e., the bad seed scenario). JMO.
This is a strange case where my heart still hurts not only for the victims and what could have been for them but also for the life of the killer, like a seedling left to wither after sprouting (again, not saying that he should be free to harm others). Normally, I just say good riddance to the killers after conviction.
Sorry for the repeated rant but this just doesn't resolve if charges are dropped.

The dog-human analogy, though it has some points, does not really take into account all of the nuances and complicating factors involving humans (and not dogs)---- I would like to see the parents be held accountable but I don't believe it will happen in this case. As I suggested above, this would be a precedent - setting case and a judge would have to see a very very strong case to hold the parents accountable. Some talking heads are suggesting whatever the outcome of this case, it could ultimately wind up at the Supreme Court.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

The dog-human analogy, though it has some points, does not really take into account all of the nuances and complicating factors involving humans (and not dogs)---- I would like to see the parents be held accountable but I don't believe it will happen in this case. As I suggested above, this would be a precedent - setting case and a judge would have to see a very very strong case to hold the parents accountable. Some talking heads are suggesting whatever the outcome of this case, it could ultimately wind up at the Supreme Court.

If this case doesn't constitute a "very very strong case," though, what would? IMO he even told them via his drawing what he was going to do. They were the ones who knew he had motive (social and mental struggles), and they provided the means. What more would be needed to set the precedent?
JMO.

 

[ilovewings]

If this case doesn't constitute a "very very strong case," though, what would? IMO he even told them via his drawing what he was going to do. They were the ones who knew he had motive (social and mental struggles), and they provided the means. What more would be needed to set the precedent?
JMO.

It all depends on the judge--- but the fact that this would be a precedent setting case leads to concern that the judge might be concerned about being turned back on appeal. Just thinking out loud

 

[WingsOverTX]

If this case doesn't constitute a "very very strong case," though, what would? IMO he even told them via his drawing what he was going to do. They were the ones who knew he had motive (social and mental struggles), and they provided the means. What more would be needed to set the precedent?
JMO.

Yes, it is strong. After watching some of the hearing I realized that the strongest case would have some official government record of intervention on EC's behalf, such as a CPS referral in which the parents were investigated for neglect. Under the law more is needed than the two school incidents. It's a very high bar to hold parent's accountable in a school shooting case due to 1) no precedents & 2) unwillingness to set a precedent.

But I agree with you re: the facts of this case are so egregious the court setting a precedent would be reasonable. I just doubt they will do it.
MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Sheriff's timeline shows Oxford shooting lasted longer than previous reports

The release of the Oxford timeline comes just days after a public timeline of the Feb. 13 shooting at Michigan State was made public.

www.detroitnews.com

Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley spent nine minutes hunting down victims and unloading rounds from his gun in high school hallways and a bathroom, according to a timeline obtained by The Detroit News.

He continued to walk the school, fire his gun and injure and kill victims for four minutes after Oakland County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene before officers physically observed Crumbley in the building — just outside a bathroom — and took him into custody.

The timeline, which has not been formally published previously, was obtained this week through a media request by The Detroit News. It shows the Nov. 30, 2021, attack at Oxford High School lasted several minutes longer than the amount of time initially described by authorities after the incident. Four students — Hana St. Juliana, 14; Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; and Justin Shilling, 17 — were killed and seven others, including a teacher, were injured at the Michigan school that day...

 

[Marysmith]

Sheriff's timeline shows Oxford shooting lasted longer than previous reports

The release of the Oxford timeline comes just days after a public timeline of the Feb. 13 shooting at Michigan State was made public.

www.detroitnews.com

Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley spent nine minutes hunting down victims and unloading rounds from his gun in high school hallways and a bathroom, according to a timeline obtained by The Detroit News.

He continued to walk the school, fire his gun and injure and kill victims for four minutes after Oakland County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene before officers physically observed Crumbley in the building — just outside a bathroom — and took him into custody.

The timeline, which has not been formally published previously, was obtained this week through a media request by The Detroit News. It shows the Nov. 30, 2021, attack at Oxford High School lasted several minutes longer than the amount of time initially described by authorities after the incident. Four students — Hana St. Juliana, 14; Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; and Justin Shilling, 17 — were killed and seven others, including a teacher, were injured at the Michigan school that day...

I thought Ethan Crumbley surrendered as well? Yes, he was arrested but he surrendered…

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.
I don't think that accountability holds for parents when they acted reasonably responsibly (i.e., the bad seed scenario). JMO.
This is a strange case where my heart still hurts not only for the victims and what could have been for them but also for the life of the killer, like a seedling left to wither after sprouting (again, not saying that he should be free to harm others). Normally, I just say good riddance to the killers after conviction.
Sorry for the repeated rant but this just doesn't resolve if charges are dropped.

That would be like comparing persimmons to pineapples. As a child grows, we expect less and less dependency on parents and more independence and responsibility on the part of the child. There is no such transference of responsibility with a dog. After a time, they don't learn higher order reasoning.

 

[Betty P]

That would be like comparing persimmons to pineapples. As a child grows, we expect less and less dependency on parents and more independence and responsibility on the part of the child. There is no such transference of responsibility with a dog. After a time, they don't learn higher order reasoning.

Yes, but age 14 is far from being an adult. It's adolescence, when hormone levels increase rapidly, affecting thinking and emotions. The brain still hasn't completely developed, kids are still not capable of making adult decisions at that age. It's why they're not allowed to drive. Brains of humans aren't fully developed until early 20's. 14 year olds are still only using concrete thinking. They've not yet developed the ability to make decisions in a logical and systematic way.

This isn't the most complete link, but will do

Cognitive Development in Children | Advice for Parents

More complex thinking processes start to develop in adolescence. Read about the typical cognitive changes and how to foster healthy development.

www.cincinnatichildrens.org

The kid was only reacting in response to his emotions, completely blinded to others. Not able to fully consider the consequences of his actions. Parental guidance would have helped him react better. Not having a gun would have removed that option for what he thought was a solution. At a vulnerable time in his life, his parents were teaching him all the wrong things.