GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[peace9274]

I didn't either. And I too looked it up. LOL

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Bloviation is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio and was used by United States President,
Warren G. Harding who described it as "the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing".

BBM

IMOO, there's too much bloviating about the can of Fabreze.

 

[Xavier]

I keep wondering if he and Whitney, or he anyway, had some sort of connection to the various places. Maybe the first time he saw her was near a lake (or even the lake he allegedly killed her at?). Maybe he had pictures of her at this lake, or at Larch mountain? Maybe he fantasized at one point about living with her in the apartment complex where her phone was found? I definitely get the sense they didn't 'hang out' together regularly but did the couples ever do anything together, like camping, maybe even only once?

I have no idea and I"m just speculating, not basing this on rumors even, just crazy thoughts in my head as I try to understand what happened. IMO the places he went just make so little sense, I feel like there's got to be a reason or reasons behind at least some of them. IMO.

Any opinions are welcomed on this thought....the Holts were married in 2010, the Heichels married in 2011..Wondering if Holt asked WH out before she was married and she turned him down. Maybe Holt, as fragile a mind/emotional state that he has, maybe resented her, never getting over her..

Also did WH put a fight while at the Lake in the SUV...did LE check her nails for Holts skin if she tried clawing at him. Did Holt have any scratches on his face, arms, etc?

The ensuing days will tell us this...Am wondering if he didnt intend to kill her and only "scare her"...maybe he thought out she would submit to Holt like an affair to keep it quiet or else he would use force at any time he wanted...Then maybe Whitney struggled in the SUV, put up a good fight and Holt freaked and shot her...shooting her 4 times in such as brutal rage was his way of "fixing" her for good since she denied him of his dream/goal to be with her...he knew having Whitney wasnt happening..

 

[Xavier]

For having more than one gun, how do ANY of us know his intentions? He may have intended to do more harm than just kill Whitney. Who knows? Nothing about his actions makes much sense to me. But I believe he acted alone.

It's just like the Matthew Hoffman case here... so many people said he HAD to
have had an accomplice, but he didn't. Trying to make sense of senseless acts will drive any person mad.

Good point on the guns....If I'm the detectives I'd find out where did Holt go to target practice or learn to shoot a gun. I t sounded like he had no prior experience with guns. Maybe I'm wrong, but would be interested in why he bought several guns, several boxes of ammo....Was he turning to ideas of future robberies, etc to make the kind of money he needed since money was tight . i'm sure if the Holt's are living hand to mouth via bank cards, Holt's wife would've seen a credit card statement, wondering why he's spending this on guns? You'd think she would be wondering this?

Also did the LE check Holt's hands for gunpowder residue tests? Shooting a hand gun always leave a "backfire residue" on the shooter.

 

[Glow]

Lol! Sorry! It just seemed like no other word quite fit!

Dont be sorry! It is a great word and we all learned something new. :twocents:

 

[jillycat]

Thus far, all a can of Febreeze with JH's fingerprint says is that JH was in Whitney's vehicle, which further indicts him, particularly since the pdf indicates he told LE he had not been in her car for some time.

Unless it was a documented purchase he made somewhere along the way and that action helps establish a portion of the timeline, or an intent to hide an odor or other evidence (however stupid and futile an effort), the documentation of the Febreeze bottle is just the crime lab doing what it does - documenting facts that emerge in the examination of evidence.

 

[Bravo]

Good point on the guns....If I'm the detectives I'd find out where did Holt go to target practice or learn to shoot a gun. I t sounded like he had no prior experience with guns. Maybe I'm wrong, but would be interested in why he bought several guns, several boxes of ammo....Was he turning to ideas of future robberies, etc to make the kind of money he needed since money was tight . i'm sure if the Holt's are living hand to mouth via bank cards, Holt's wife would've seen a credit card statement, wondering why he's spending this on guns? You'd think she would be wondering this?

Also did the LE check Holt's hands for gunpowder residue tests? Shooting a hand gun always leave a "backfire residue" on the shooter.

Good questions. Facts we may learn in time. I wonder if the guns were registered? Or not. I would like to know how long he has had the guns. If he obtained them "off the street" I guess we may never know.

 

[Bravo]

Any opinions are welcomed on this thought....the Holts were married in 2010, the Heichels married in 2011..Wondering if Holt asked WH out before she was married and she turned him down. Maybe Holt, as fragile a mind/emotional state that he has, maybe resented her, never getting over her..

Also did WH put a fight while at the Lake in the SUV...did LE check her nails for Holts skin if she tried clawing at him. Did Holt have any scratches on his face, arms, etc?

The ensuing days will tell us this...Am wondering if he didnt intend to kill her and only "scare her"...maybe he thought out she would submit to Holt like an affair to keep it quiet or else he would use force at any time he wanted...Then maybe Whitney struggled in the SUV, put up a good fight and Holt freaked and shot her...shooting her 4 times in such as brutal rage was his way of "fixing" her for good since she denied him of his dream/goal to be with her...he knew having Whitney wasnt happening..

It would seem logical if he took her at gunpoint. Or pulled the gun 5 minutes in (his words) he intended to kill her. Perhaps in his fantasy she wasn't responding to him quite the way he wanted. Not that they had much contact. Perhaps he made her uncomfortable at some point and completely ignored him as a neighbor? So he was going to take her and then silence her :moo:

 

[Melancholy]

Regarding the white vehicle. I wonder if perhaps the accounting of the white vehicle isn't similar to the other vehicle mentioned where they wanted to ask the driver if they noticed anything when they were there at the same time as WH's vehicle being left there. It's a stretch, but I *seriously* do not get ANYTHING that would indicate he acted with someone. I think perhaps it was noted as part of the 'scene', as was the other gentleman who was there in the parking lot, or that it was coincidence.

 

[Bravo]

Regarding the white vehicle. I wonder if perhaps the accounting of the white vehicle isn't similar to the other vehicle mentioned where they wanted to ask the driver if they noticed anything when they were there at the same time as WH's vehicle being left there. It's a stretch, but I *seriously* do not get ANYTHING that would indicate he acted with someone. I think perhaps it was noted as part of the 'scene', as was the other gentleman who was there in the parking lot, or that it was coincidence.

Agree. That parking lot looked very full and therefore very busy. It would be reasonable they would question anyone around at that time.

 

[Suzvw]

I keep wondering if he and Whitney, or he anyway, had some sort of connection to the various places. Maybe the first time he saw her was near a lake (or even the lake he allegedly killed her at?). Maybe he had pictures of her at this lake, or at Larch mountain? Maybe he fantasized at one point about living with her in the apartment complex where her phone was found? I definitely get the sense they didn't 'hang out' together regularly but did the couples ever do anything together, like camping, maybe even only once?

I have no idea and I"m just speculating, not basing this on rumors even, just crazy thoughts in my head as I try to understand what happened. IMO the places he went just make so little sense, I feel like there's got to be a reason or reasons behind at least some of them. IMO.

Well...Roslyn Lake hasn't been a lake since 2008 when PGE decided to drain it out. I suppose they could have met there during a church camp-out or something...she would have been 17 at the time. You could camp and picnic there.

 

[Suzvw]

Just heard on KATU that a crime investigator with LE says that he strongly feels JH lost control after he murdered her and was so rattled he couldn't figure out what to do. I don't know....seems like a pretty pat answer to what we're all wondering. He also said that JH will plead 'guilty' and that he would be out on parole in 30 years. I don't know about that either. I'm wondering what kind of home life he had. Reason I wonder is, at 24 he certainly knew is way around far east county out here. He lived in NE Portland on 97th, and went to Parkrose High, so unless he had someone he went skiing with, or camping with, or fishing with....he really wouldn't know his way around out there. And Dodge Park Blvd? Not many use that road except those who live there. Normally, going to Sandy, we'd use Highway 26 (goes right passed Whitney's apartment), or use Bluff Road into Sandy. I'm wondering who his friends were. Young men (teens) who like to get into minor trouble, will often go target practicing out that way. I just feel someone else knows something about this. With as messed up as his "after murder" prep was, I just can't believe he didn't say something to someone about his feelings for her. Also just heard that Amanda is moving out of the apartment. Someone stepped forward and helped her pay the final month's rent, and the complex management let her out of her lease. Also, her old job has rehired her after a new job she was going to fell thru.

 

[Paulette]

I just have to weigh-in on why JH chose WH to victimize. IMO, he saw WH as weak and he knew he could manipulate her. And she was close by and available. My experience as a woman is that a lot of men see a woman that smiles & is polite as weak - and, IMO, the lower the social staus of the man, the more he sees it this way.

An example of a woman that doesn't "feed the beast" (the press in this case) is Victoria Beckham. She doesn't deign to smile or show any personality. She chooses to stay stum.

Many women in WH's situation would drive into a pole rather than be taken hostage.

 

[Elainera]

<snipped for space and bbm>

I also think something is going to come out in the trial as regards his mental state, be it mental illness or some kind of developmental problem or perhaps brain injury. Nothing he did makes sense. Not the crime, not the way he tried to "cover up the crime", just how deeply senseless it all is. It's hard to really wrap one's "normal" brain around the whole situation.

I hope he doesn't plead not guilty because of insanity :what:

Does anyone know whether he had the psych evaluation yet?

[/B]

BBM
It may be that he knew she had been opening Starbucks in the past,
but wasn't aware she had changed her schedule in order to get more sleep in the am.
He may have known, if she had opened that morning, she would be there alone.

When someone else answered, he probably hung up. And then hoping she was still going
going in to work, but later, he waited by her apartment for her to leave.

If Whitney HAD opened that morning and HAD answered the phone at Starbucks at 6:08 am
on Oct 16, I wonder what his plan was!

MOO

I think he waited before 6am that Whitney would come out to go to work, not knowing that her shift start had changed. When she didn't show up he called Starbucks, maybe even got the info from them when she was expected. So he waited until she came out.

Actually it's not that much travelled...except at that time of morning. Like most cities, the suburbs encroach more into the surrounding area. This is a really, heavily wooded, forested area, and small farms and ranches are dotted in those wooded plots. It's a twisty stretch (I use it sometimes when I go into Sandy because it's beautiful)...I believe the speed limit is 35 to 40, but reduces significantly because of curves. My question is this....why, if he killed her there, why didn't he dispose of her body there? There are certainly many places there that he could have done that, unseen. It's certainly not been the first time someone disposed of a body out there. Why did he spend the time and energy to go all the way up to Larch Mountain? Some of you don't know the area...it's quite a drive. Not that close to where he was. And the roads aren't straight. Why did he take her up to Larch Mountain?

This is exactly what I have been stuck on... why go back through Gresham, get gas, then head out to Larch? He could have just as easily gone through Sandy for gas and headed towards Mt. Hood or something, found a random logging road.... I suppose he knew he wanted to ditch the car somewhere, but he still could have came back from Sandy to ditch it so he could walk home (or rather, get a ride from friends hours later).

I believe he was confused and in a panic. He went back into the city after the killing, then thought it better to ditch the body somewhere else rather than leave it in the car, and headed up to L Mountain.

This sounds possible of a 2cd perp along with Holt. When Holt left the SUV @ WalMart, where did the video show him going? Did he hop into the White SUV nearby or did he just walk away out of the video range? Also, why did Holt need to carry 3 guns with him with enough ammo to harm alot of people? Was a revolver for another accomplice ?

And why several gas stops? Were two cars using Whitney's debit card? Does the gas station video show just Whitney's Black SUV getting gas or also another car ( the mystery white car)...
Also, the LE actually were trailing and observing Holt toss Whitney's personal things and other crime scene stuff in more than one dumpster. That's how they were able to find, collect evidence so fast... These facts are on the Gresham police report. Any explanations are welcomed.

It says in the affidavit that a tree was inbetween both cars and they could not see where he went after exiting Whitney's car, nor whether he entered the other van.

I believe it also says that they found video footage showing him tossing the things into the dumpster after they had found the car. They did not trail and observe him while he was dumping the things.

I was wondering, having shot her 4 times in such a small space - the car - he must have gotten at least a little blood on him. He didn't go home after ditching the car at 11:17am and the friends who saw him walking at 6pm and took him home did not report seeing any blood on his clothes. Did he go somewhere to change? Given his possible *advertiser censored* addiction, maybe he went to a prostitute and somehow got a T Shirt from her, or something.

That day in August last year when he was missing, he could have also been at a prostitute or strip club. From what I read about *advertiser censored* addiction, they can't think about much else, much like with any addiction. I doubt he was sitting in a park (as he said) for 12 hours!

 

[Madeleine74]

My random thoughts after reading many pages...

- There's a difference between being "book smart" and "testing well" and having little common sense. This killer had much less common sense than whatever his GPA may have shown. His actions are what tell us this, as he did some really dumb things and was seen doing them. Thank goodness for dumb criminals.

- CH is a victim. He deserves nothing but compassion and sympathy for the loss of his beloved wife.

- Real life is not like CSI, NCIS or any of the other alphabet crime shows. Imagining things about people is not sleuthing, that's just creating fiction and spreading potential rumors. How does that help anyone?

- There's a reason why media reports are not used as evidence in courtrooms. They are not evidence! They might not even be half correct in some cases.

- Pretending we know why this killer did what he did and what his intentions were and what his thought processes were is pointless. We really don't know and further we don't know all the details. I realize it's human nature to want to fill in the blanks to create a complete picture, but (IMO) making stuff up to fill those holes doesn't give a complete picture anyway.

- LE will always, 100% of the time, know more than they are saying. That's to protect the case so it can be prosecuted successfully by the DA. It's not a conspiracy, it's not just to be difficult, it's not to make the public frustrated, it's for one reason--protect the integrity of the case for prosecution. Fortunately we do get a good glimpse into the investigation with the release of search warrants and other official court documents, as time passes.

 

[Bravo]

The fact that Holt brought a gun. Hid evidence after the crime would make an Insanity Plea a moot point. Not that a Lawyer wouldn't try tho.

 

[JaimeSommers]

IMOO, there's too much bloviating about the can of Fabreze.

HA! Well played, sir and/or madam.

 

[Quester]

[Please note that I am trying to understand how JH could have thought through this horrific, disastrous plan. I have learned from following cases here on WS that my logic is often times not the logic of these perps and a twisted logic must be considered. The following is my attempt to apply a twisted logic.]

I’m still exploring the possibility that JH did all of this to cowardly get out of his marriage.

If it all went as he may have planned, JH would have come out as a victim of the “robbers” who were ultimately targeting WH. As the publicity about the case would have been revealed, the possibility of intimate photos of WH on JH’s cell phone could have been revealed privately to AH and ultimately it would have been grounds for their divorce. JH, possibly in his mind, could have thought he would have come out of it on a relatively even playing field (robbery victim + adulterer = 0). WH’s murder would have never been solved because of course there were no “robbers”. I can only assume that JH’s hiding of the guns where he did would have resulted in JH claiming that the “robbers” were trying to frame JH for the murder.

[Again, the above is just my attempt to apply a possible twisted logic.]

 

[Suzvw]

I'm still just wondering why he chose Larch Mountain. For one thing...Larch Mountain has always had a reputation for crime and the disposal of bodies. It goes decades back...but recently a woman's body was found up there in '96...a male body was found in '99 and again in 2006, a young missing 20 year old man's body was found there. It's a very wooded, remote area. So why go there....unless you hoped the body would be found. It's so sad that an area that gorgeous has gained such a bad rap. There's a huge fire tower at the very top (you can also climb all the way up the tower for the view)...and when you've finally reached the top, well, it's just breathtaking. You see 7 mountains and can almost see to the coast...it's just spectacular. There's no light pollution, so often, like during the time of the Persieds, you can go up there and have the most awesome sight of the night sky and the comets. It's just sad. Of all the horrible places he could have placed her...it's at least a small comfort to know she was put in such a beautiful place. But why there~

 

[iamnotagolem]

[Please note that I am trying to understand how JH could have thought through this horrific, disastrous plan. I have learned from following cases here on WS that my logic is often times not the logic of these perps and a twisted logic must be considered. The following is my attempt to apply a twisted logic.]

I’m still exploring the possibility that JH did all of this to cowardly get out of his marriage.

If it all went as he may have planned, JH would have come out as a victim of the “robbers” who were ultimately targeting WH. As the publicity about the case would have been revealed, the possibility of intimate photos of WH on JH’s cell phone could have been revealed privately to AH and ultimately it would have been grounds for their divorce. JH, possibly in his mind, could have thought he would have come out of it on a relatively even playing field (robbery victim + adulterer = 0). WH’s murder would have never been solved because of course there were no “robbers”. I can only assume that JH’s hiding of the guns where he did would have resulted in JH claiming that the “robbers” were trying to frame JH for the murder.

[Again, the above is just my attempt to apply a possible twisted logic.]

Seems like an extremely complicated scheme to get out of a marriage when he could have just filed for divorce.

I just don't see how murdering someone and making up a story about being robbed would ease his conscience more than filing for divorce. It is quite obvious that he had no consideration for his wife's feelings, Clint's or Whitney's so why would he destroy lives and marriages just to get out of a marriage? It makes no sense.

 

[Suzvw]

Seems like an extremely complicated scheme to get out of a marriage when he could have just filed for divorce.

I just don't see how murdering someone and making up a story about being robbed would ease his conscience more than filing for divorce. It is quite obvious that he had no consideration for his wife's feelings, Clint's or Whitney's so why would he destroy lives and marriages just to get out of a marriage? It makes no sense.

They can't divorce...only if there's been adultery committed.