GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Solariis]

I'm not sure if this was previously posted but it's been quite a while since this was posted (Oct 22) and I believe there is a lot of information in here pertaining to JH's background, how he seemed to others around him, neighbors etc. I find that digging into a killer's psychology and motives behind crimes is one of the most important aspects that is consistently overlooked. Since we don't know JH's motive yet nor how he suddenly became a cold-blooded killer, this is all we can resort to for the time being.

I can't help but wonder how his childhood may have had a role in his development over time of holding things in, internalizing issues and becoming an emotional wreck later in life. I am in no way victimizing JH as he is the prime suspect here and has committed an unforgivable crime. I simply am curious about whether his upbringing/childhood may have
contributed to these sick developments later down the road. It also states JH's parents divorced earlier this year...could that have been a triggering issue for him perhaps?

Background information starts after the first video a bit down the page:
http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/whitney_heichel_was_shot_four.html

__________________________

Holt spent much of his childhood in Northeast Portland, the older of two sons of Nancy and Chris Holt, who were married in California in 1982. Longtime residents of the neighborhood said the family moved into their house on Northeast 97th Avenue when the two boys were young.

"They were just little boys when they moved in," said Nola Waggoner, who has lived in the home next door for 53 years.

Another neighbor, Vincent Wilson, said the family was pleasant, ordinary in fact, and never caused any trouble.

"I never would have thought that anything bad would have happened to this boy," said Wilson, who's lived in the neighborhood 17 years. "He was a good kid."

The couple lived with his wife's parents for a time, according to a neighbor.

Amanda Holt's mother, Lorinda Adams, indicated that her daughter is devastated.
She offered no clues about what might have led to Holt facing aggravated murder charges. "It's a mystery to all of us," said Lorinda Adams.

Holt's parents divorced this past January. They could not be reached for comment.

Yuliya Mikhaylov, 24, a former classmate of Holt at Parkrose, described him as someone who kept to himself and often hung out with his younger brother. She mentioned that she didn't know Holt very well during their school days and did not keep in contact when they graduated Parkrose High School in 2006.

"When I saw his name and picture on the news, I just couldn't believe it was him," said Mikhalov, who went to elementary, middle and high school with Holt. "He seemed like such a shy and quiet guy and it's shocking to hear what he is accused of. Definitely something I didn't expect."

Madaline Doherty, another former classmate of Holt, said he was bullied during high school. "Some other kids would knock his books down, push him into walls or trip him," said Doherty, 25. "It was pretty bad."

She said she was good friends with Holt up until 3rd grade, when her family moved to Grants Pass. She moved back to Gresham in 6th grade, but the two never rekindled their friendship, she said. "I have nothing but good memories of Jonathan as a kid," Doherty said. "It's just sad that he is accused of this."

Among those who showed up to observe the arraignment was Michael Kious, who attended Springwater Trail High School in Gresham with Heichel and also knows Holt.
He added that Holt was a typical teenager who would squabble with his parents but was not a troublemaker.

 

[Melancholy]

<snip>
I can't help but wonder how his childhood may have had a role in his development over time of holding things in, internalizing issues and becoming an emotional wreck later in life. I am in no way victimizing JH as he is the prime suspect here and has committed an unforgivable crime. I simply am curious about whether his upbringing/childhood may have
contributed to these sick developments later down the road. It also states JH's parents divorced earlier this year...could that have been a triggering issue for him perhaps?
<snippadoodle>

I too have wondered these things. Without alleviating his responsibility of course, and without accusing/laying fault on his parents in ANY way, shape or form, I would be curious to know what his life was like growing up. It was BRIEFLY touched on early in the forum threads, but it was a delicate subject to discuss without sounding like you are fault-finding (again, I blame no one but the one accused, whether his life was a picture of perfection, or a nightmare)

 

[Glow]

*whew* all caught up, I do believe!

First, I was a little anxious that I would return and Whitney's case may have been left behind for another, different case. I'm happy to see that she's not been 'forgotten' (for lack of a better word)

Second, lol I see some things have not changed

Which brings me to one of the many changes I have made in my life as a result of 'meeting' Whitney. We (this forum) talked at length early on about the sheer number of pictures CH and WH had together, and whether than is indicative of a close relationship (I think it *is* but I don't think a lack of pics is indicative of anything contrary lol)....

that really made me think about the number of pictures my hubby and I have...we have TONS of the kids, tons of each of us with kids, tons of us alone, but NOT tons of us together, reflecting the love we have for one another like WH and CH have. That is something we have been working on,

Hi Melancholy:seeya:

I think I was just coming on board as you were taking your break, I was way too busy with work to comment but I was reading along so I "feel" like I know you from your posts.

Its funny what makes a person drawn to a certain case. This is one that has done that for me. I havent been this "caught up" in a case since the Laci Peterson case ten years ago.

I see certain similarities between the two cases. A young vibrant woman cut down in her prime, a cover up that looked ridiculous and spur of the moment and last but not least, a "charming" young man with no criminal record as the perp.

ONE BIG difference was Laci happened to be married to her murderer whereas Whitneys was a neighbor and not her beloved husband

I still remember all the "conspiracy theories" and speculation that went on then. One thing in particular was the argument made for Scott Petersons "innocence" was that he did such a sloppy job of covering his tracks that must mean he didnt really do it because wouldnt a real murderer of done a better job? Thereby using his sloppiness as proof of his innocence but it wasnt and HE wasnt and that case is closed.

I mention that because I am thinking that part of what keeps me concerned about this case is similar in some ways to that one,:twocents:

As for the last part of your post about how you have been moved to make positive changes in your own life after coming to "know" Whitney?

I think that is absolutely the best tribute anyone could pay to Whitney, that she made them try for better in their own life.

Bravo to you for that!


:twocents:

 

[Melancholy]

Hi Melancholy:seeya:

<very very respectfully snipped for space>

As for the last part of your post about how you have been moved to make positive changes in your own life after coming to "know" Whitney?

I think that is absolutely the best tribute anyone could pay to Whitney, that she made them try for better in their own life.

<snip>

Hi Glow

OH man, I remember how upsetting the Laci Peterson case was *sigh* At the time we lived physically close to that area, and I had just had my daughter and it was soooo disheartening and emotional for me. I kind of wish i'd known this forum (was it even around? LOL) back then, it would have been nice to 'hash it out' like with this case.

*hugs to you* I think WH sure has affected a lot of people and brought changes in lives!

 

[newsjunkie]

-snipped by me-

Yuliya Mikhaylov, 24, a former classmate of Holt at Parkrose, described him as someone who kept to himself and often hung out with his younger brother. She mentioned that she didn't know Holt very well during their school days and did not keep in contact when they graduated Parkrose High School in 2006.

"When I saw his name and picture on the news, I just couldn't believe it was him," said Mikhalov, who went to elementary, middle and high school with Holt. "He seemed like such a shy and quiet guy and it's shocking to hear what he is accused of. Definitely something I didn't expect."

Madaline Doherty, another former classmate of Holt, said he was bullied during high school. "Some other kids would knock his books down, push him into walls or trip him," said Doherty, 25. "It was pretty bad."

She said she was good friends with Holt up until 3rd grade, when her family moved to Grants Pass. She moved back to Gresham in 6th grade, but the two never rekindled their friendship, she said. "I have nothing but good memories of Jonathan as a kid," Doherty said. "It's just sad that he is accused of this."

Among those who showed up to observe the arraignment was Michael Kious, who attended Springwater Trail High School in Gresham with Heichel and also knows Holt.
He added that Holt was a typical teenager who would squabble with his parents but was not a troublemaker.

So that is three different people who remember JH as typical, quiet, shy, or bullied. . .not the popular football player.

I agree that his childhood probably played a role in what caused him to commit this terrible thing.

 

[newsjunkie]

And I do have a legitimate question, and please bear with me, as it's not meant in a backhanded or insidious way LOL.

I realize (as Salem brought out, and I appreciate) that saying things that sound accusatory toward the victims --which include family of the victim, and I believe it was stated friends--is against ToS, and I also realize there is a fine line in wordage on some things.

I am reading some of these things saying perhaps JH is a 'fall guy', perhaps a 'patsy', and even one saying he is being 'blackmailed'....all of these scenarios would imply that JH himself is - on some level- a victim....

I guess I'm having a hard time reconciling that it's not okay to imply accusatory wording toward family and friends (AH, CH, the Judds)...but that it is somehow okay to imply that JH is a victim...it just seems to 'dirty' a thread about justice for WH. I guess that's probably just a personal issue I'll have to overlook and move on...but I don't see how it is allowable as far as ToS.

Again, not saying this in a passive aggressive way, I genuinely don't see how those aren't getting modsnipped or something.

Thanks button was not enough! I couldn't agree more.

 

[Boodles]

And I do have a legitimate question, and please bear with me, as it's not meant in a backhanded or insidious way LOL.

I realize (as Salem brought out, and I appreciate) that saying things that sound accusatory toward the victims --which include family of the victim, and I believe it was stated friends--is against ToS, and I also realize there is a fine line in wordage on some things.

I am reading some of these things saying perhaps JH is a 'fall guy', perhaps a 'patsy', and even one saying he is being 'blackmailed'....all of these scenarios would imply that JH himself is - on some level- a victim....

I guess I'm having a hard time reconciling that it's not okay to imply accusatory wording toward family and friends (AH, CH, the Judds)...but that it is somehow okay to imply that JH is a victim...it just seems to 'dirty' a thread about justice for WH. I guess that's probably just a personal issue I'll have to overlook and move on...but I don't see how it is allowable as far as ToS.

Again, not saying this in a passive aggressive way, I genuinely don't see how those aren't getting modsnipped or something.

Bolded by me. Holt hasn't been convicted yet. We know what the media nd LE have published, and nothing more. Some have many questions about the unusual timeline and events, and are discussing these questions.

There's nothing 'dirty' about that.

I'm not being snarky, but people who are bothered by this can either skip over such posts, or even use the 'ignore' feature.

I, for one, am very interested in reading various points of view. Everyone here wants justice for Whitney. However, we don't all see things with the same perspective.

HTH.

 

[Xavier]

So that is three different people who remember JH as typical, quiet, shy, or bullied. . .not the popular football player.

I agree that his childhood probably played a role in what caused him to commit this terrible thing.

The news feeds on all kinds of questions about Holt's life, etc have seemingly been muzzled.

I looked up Holt's Parkmoor high school in Oregon about anything on him and had a hard time getting into any alumni information. I could'nt find anything about Holt's high school years, sports star, academics, etc...

 

[Xavier]

It also speaks to the "canvassing of the apartment complex" on Wednesday (the 17th) and "received information leading them to Holt" on Wednesday.

CaffieneJean---- I did'nt read this report. Can you tell us Did LE find any of Whitney's belongings in the Holt's apartment or any child *advertiser censored* photos, DVDs, stored disc, or a dairy or notes about this crime or notes of his feelings going on in head?

Thanks.

 

[Melancholy]

Bolded by me. Holt hasn't been convicted yet. We know what the media nd LE have published, and nothing more. Some have many questions about the unusual timeline and events, and are discussing these questions.

There's nothing 'dirty' about that.

I'm not being snarky, but people who are bothered by this can either skip over such posts, or even use the 'ignore' feature.

I, for one, am very interested in reading various points of view. Everyone here wants justice for Whitney. However, we don't all see things with the same perspective.

HTH.

I certainly am aware that we aren't all going to agree or perhaps read into things the same way. I realize our guts may all have a different feeling. I am also not so immature that I can't "skip over" things I disagree with, as I skip over plenty, trust me.

I am asking a question about ToS and what is typical/acceptable posting.

 

[Xavier]

Anytime there's reference to JH's phone, it's JH's phone, in my mind, as he had it in his possession and had been using for some time as his own cell phone (even though we know it was actually Clint's phone that he stole). This alleviates the confusion when discussing the various phones. Just MOO and my :twocents:

Link for the stolen iPhone: http://www.kgw.com/news/Docs-Holt-h...er censored*-and-stolen-iPhone-176052031.html

As an aside, I feel there is much that goes on in the privacy of any marriage. No one can truly know what has been transpiring behind closed doors other than the two parties involved. Again, MOO and just another :twocents:

Lastly, does anyone know if/where the pressers might still be available online?

OK BrownEyed Girl, can you clear this up. This question is not that a big of a deal.

During the crime it seems everyone here has said Holt had the stolen Clint Heichel cell phone and then later Holt had access to Whitney's cell phone.

Did LE actually prove Holt was'nt carrying his cell phone during the crime, maybe in his backpack?

Because I say this thinking aloud here, Holt would've taken a BIG RISK having CH's cell, not knowing if CH cancelled the cell phone services.

And if he thought this through, what if Whitney's cell phone had died during the crime?

Holt's only Plan C option left would be having access to his own cell phone, maybe in his backpack. It just seems like no one these days can go a minute out of their day without tweeting or checking messages on their phones. I would think having some workable communications might've been important to Holt.

 

[Boodles]

I certainly am aware that we aren't all going to agree or perhaps read into things the same way. I realize our guts may all have a different feeling. I am also not so immature that I can't "skip over" things I disagree with, as I skip over plenty, trust me.

I am asking a question about ToS and what is typical/acceptable posting.

Sorry if I misunderstood. A mod is probably the best one to answer your TOS question.

 

[Melancholy]

Sorry if I misunderstood. A mod is probably the best one to answer your TOS question.

I legitimately was curious. I hate that you can't convey emotion in text haha. I think my questions come across pewpy sometimes hahaha

 

[masyann]

I legitimately was curious. I hate that you can't convey emotion in text haha. I think my questions come across pewpy sometimes hahaha

Not sure if this will help But if you think that there is a message that violates TOS, you can always report that message. Or if you have a question about a specific message then ask a mod.

I always thought they just know somehow that rules have been broken by osmosis or something. And they are great at moderating that's why I like it here for the most part. But I don't think and I may be wrong that they can be everywhere all the time like I thought in the past. I think they even have had to take down whole threads and look at them.

I was here through out the CMA case from FL. And got to where I thought some post were so far out there, and could not believe it but eventually things come out. You and I know that for sure. But I will say no more as I may be in-trouble for not staying on subject or TO opps OT. :seeya:

 

[newsjunkie]

OK BrownEyed Girl, can you clear this up. This question is not that a big of a deal.

During the crime it seems everyone here has said Holt had the stolen Clint Heichel cell phone and then later Holt had access to Whitney's cell phone.

Did LE actually prove Holt was'nt carrying his cell phone during the crime, maybe in his backpack?

Because I say this thinking aloud here, Holt would've taken a BIG RISK having CH's cell, not knowing if CH cancelled the cell phone services.

And if he thought this through, what if Whitney's cell phone had died during the crime?

Holt's only Plan C option left would be having access to his own cell phone, maybe in his backpack. It just seems like no one these days can go a minute out of their day without tweeting or checking messages on their phones. I would think having some workable communications might've been important to Holt.

I easily have 16 old cell phones in my house that kids play with. Anyone could take one of those phones and put a SIM card in it and it would be their phone on their account that I would have no knowledge of. My cell account is only attached to my current phone.

CH's phone was an old phone that was not affiliated with any account, as he had a new phone he was using.

JH took that phone and ultimately made it his own. IT was the phone attached to his (JH) cell phone bill. The only way anyone would ever know it was CH's phone previously is if JH told them.

There was no reason for him to be paying for 2 cell phone bills. I mean PIM mentioned earlier that they were barely scraping by and he probably couldn't afford a gym membership. It would be highly unlikely he would pay for an extra phone.

 

[Melancholy]

I easily have 16 old cell phones in my house that kids play with. Anyone could take one of those phones and put a SIM card in it and it would be their phone on their account that I would have no knowledge of. My cell account is only attached to my current phone.

CH's phone was an old phone that was not affiliated with any account, as he had a new phone he was using.

JH took that phone and ultimately made it his own. IT was the phone attached to his (JH) cell phone bill. The only way anyone would ever know it was CH's phone previously is if JH told them.

There was no reason for him to be paying for 2 cell phone bills. I mean PIM mentioned earlier that they were barely scraping by and he probably couldn't afford a gym membership. It would be highly unlikely he would pay for an extra phone.

Very well explained! Your SIM card is what attaches to your account, not the physical phone. I have swapped mine out half a dozen times, same bill, 6 different phones lol. I agree that if they were scraping by there's no way they had an extra cell line "just because"

 

[newsjunkie]

Very well explained! Your SIM card is what attaches to your account, not the physical phone. I have swapped mine out half a dozen times, same bill, 6 different phones lol. I agree that if they were scraping by there's no way they had an extra cell line "just because"

For my phones, the plot thickens. . .lol.
I have purchased new phones from the carrier,

bought off ebay,

used pre-paid phones from Wal-Mart as a regular phone when mine pooped out,

and borrowed old phones from my sister or husband for the same reason.

There has never been an issue with crossed-accounts (for lack of a better phrase).

 

[La Louve]

The news feeds on all kinds of questions about Holt's life, etc have seemingly been muzzled.

I looked up Holt's Parkmoor high school in Oregon about anything on him and had a hard time getting into any alumni information. I could'nt find anything about Holt's high school years, sports star, academics, etc...

Holt attended Parkrose High School, not Parkmoor.

 

[nikb]

OK BrownEyed Girl, can you clear this up. This question is not that a big of a deal.

During the crime it seems everyone here has said Holt had the stolen Clint Heichel cell phone and then later Holt had access to Whitney's cell phone.

Did LE actually prove Holt was'nt carrying his cell phone during the crime, maybe in his backpack?

Because I say this thinking aloud here, Holt would've taken a BIG RISK having CH's cell, not knowing if CH cancelled the cell phone services.

And if he thought this through, what if Whitney's cell phone had died during the crime?

Holt's only Plan C option left would be having access to his own cell phone, maybe in his backpack. It just seems like no one these days can go a minute out of their day without tweeting or checking messages on their phones. I would think having some workable communications might've been important to Holt.

If I read the affidavit correctly, CH's phone was stolen awhile back. He didn't even know it was missing until LE asked about it. I take it that CH probably got a new phone, JH stole the old one, and JH was using the stolen one as his own phone, under his own plan, likely IMO with his own SIM card in it.

 

[Sasquatch]

If I read the affidavit correctly, CH's phone was stolen awhile back. He didn't even know it was missing until LE asked about it. I take it that CH probably got a new phone, JH stole the old one, and JH was using the stolen one as his own phone, under his own plan, likely IMO with his own SIM card in it.

Page 3 of 44 on the Holt1.pdf document states CH's phone that got stolen was an iPhone 3G. If the SIM card was active, JH could have just popped it in to make it work. If the SIM card was inactive, then he could have just hooked it up to iTunes and activated it.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5458592_activate-att-sim-card.html

Technology makes it real easy to activate phones and sync/transfer all of your contacts to your new phone in minutes.