GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Quester]

Thanks to the community from the family of [WH]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/myoregon/2012/11/thanks_to_the_community_from_t.html

 

[caffeinejean]

Funny how questions can generate more questions! I have been thinking a lot about when exactly Whitney was removed from the drivers seat (if she was).

I have read different articles quoting JH as saying he forced her to drive him at gunpoint. There has also been some thought that maybe at some point she was moved to the passenger front seat. The two things that may lend credence to this are 1) the blood and matter found on the interior passenger windshield 2) the specific question by detectives to JH asking did he ever drive her car and also a mention of DNA on the steering wheel.

Does anyone have a better source for whether they both drove the SUV at some point or was it just Whitney that did the driving?

Other then the JH confession of where the crime occurred and from the probable cause doc attached that his DNA was found on the steering wheel, No.
http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/4/3/2/432e9d7a-07ea-4768-b441-60dbba3cb9cb/affidavit.pdf

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

And I do have a legitimate question, and please bear with me, as it's not meant in a backhanded or insidious way LOL.

I realize (as Salem brought out, and I appreciate) that saying things that sound accusatory toward the victims --which include family of the victim, and I believe it was stated friends--is against ToS, and I also realize there is a fine line in wordage on some things.

I am reading some of these things saying perhaps JH is a 'fall guy', perhaps a 'patsy', and even one saying he is being 'blackmailed'....all of these scenarios would imply that JH himself is - on some level- a victim....

I guess I'm having a hard time reconciling that it's not okay to imply accusatory wording toward family and friends (AH, CH, the Judds)...but that it is somehow okay to imply that JH is a victim...it just seems to 'dirty' a thread about justice for WH. I guess that's probably just a personal issue I'll have to overlook and move on...but I don't see how it is allowable as far as ToS.

Again, not saying this in a passive aggressive way, I genuinely don't see how those aren't getting modsnipped or something.

eace: LOL, yep! Different mindsets -- pretty much the norm at WS and everywhere. Yes, we are all passionate about justice in whatever form we see it! IMO there is never any harm in folks asking "honest questions," or exploring whether a confessed/charged perp acted alone, as long as innocent and uninvolved persons are not implicated (as moderators have spelled out).

Bolded by me. Holt hasn't been convicted yet. We know what the media nd LE have published, and nothing more. Some have many questions about the unusual timeline and events, and are discussing these questions.

There's nothing 'dirty' about that.

I'm not being snarky, but people who are bothered by this can either skip over such posts, or even use the 'ignore' feature.

I, for one, am very interested in reading various points of view. Everyone here wants justice for Whitney. However, we don't all see things with the same perspective.

HTH.

(BBM)
Glad we're still in agreement that honest questions in here are not only okay, but might even stimulate interesting new avenues of consideration, so long as family/victims are not accused. Exploring possible motivations the suspect may have had for his actions could not in any way take away from Whitney's being the ultimate victim in this crime--justice still needs to be (and hopefully will be) served. Also want to add that I think Salem has done a good job of discernment thus far in a thread where emotions seem to be running high. IMO.

 

[nikb]

Funny how questions can generate more questions! I have been thinking a lot about when exactly Whitney was removed from the drivers seat (if she was).

I have read different articles quoting JH as saying he forced her to drive him at gunpoint. There has also been some thought that maybe at some point she was moved to the passenger front seat. The two things that may lend credence to this are 1) the blood and matter found on the interior passenger windshield 2) the specific question by detectives to JH asking did he ever drive her car and also a mention of DNA on the steering wheel.

Does anyone have a better source for whether they both drove the SUV at some point or was it just Whitney that did the driving?

Well, not a source exactly but assuming that even part of JH's story is accurate, he had to have driven it after she died. My question is more like, did Whitney drive it at all that day, or was it only JH?

 

[nikb]

Thanks to the community from the family of [WH]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/myoregon/2012/11/thanks_to_the_community_from_t.html

That's really touching. Thanks for posting it. I'm consistently amazed at how well they seem to be doing and especially how gracious they are. Not to say they aren't gracious people, obviously they are! I just think I'd be having a tough time doing much other than curling up in a ball under the covers and crying so soon after this happened. Which is not a criticism or a "you're not grieving right," how you'd move on from something like this is just so unfathomable to me, I guess.

In particular this: "Thanks to those of you who came from the area, and those who drove for hours, to stand in a two-hour line waiting to meet and give your support to everyone in our family."

My gosh, they're thanking people for standing in line to meet them? Even when they did this event I couldn't believe the hours and hours they chose to stand there greeting and thanking people. I'm sure it was inspiring but it had to be incredibly painful too. I admire all of them, and I'm so glad they're gaining strength from the community support.

 

[Glow]

Well, not a source exactly but assuming that even part of JH's story is accurate, he had to have driven it after she died. My questions is more like, did Whitney drive it at all that day, or was it only JH?

Well you make a good point. The only real source we have that Whitney drove at all is coming from JH.

Not that he would lie or anything :furious:

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Sasquatch, in looking at your timetable, I'm still struggling with something that seems to make no sense.

Why would the killer, after shooting her 4 times, bring her car (and her body) all the way back up to home territory to fill up (or get cash at ATMs)? If the car was bloody (it was) with a broken window, seems extraordinarily risky to gas up in Troutwood when he could have filled up at almost a half dozen gas stations closer to Roslyn Lake on Hwy. 26, and then travel eastward over to Larch Mt.

 

[nikb]

Well you make a good point. The only real source we have that Whitney drove at all is coming from JH.

Not that he would lie or anything :furious:

BBM I know what you mean. That's why I was thinking my question only applied if ANY of his story is true. I tend to think at least part of it is, but who knows. I'm pretty sure not all of it is, especially since it reportedly changed a few times. Of course they haven't released video but I would think the apartment surveillance cameras would at least show who got into the driver's seat, if they capture the area where Whitney was parked.

Ugh... unless she was parked in a spot that wasn't on camera, intentionally or not. Not intentionally by Whitney, but possibly by someone else? Someone who made sure she'd only have one kinda small spot to park in (thus needing the neighbor's help to park) the night before? Sounds like it wasn't an unusual spot for her to park or all that far from where she normally would, but I do wonder if it happens to be one small area blocked by a tree or corner of a building or something. Hmmm. No theory here, just thinking "out loud."

 

[Glow]

BBM I know what you mean. That's why I was thinking my question only applied if ANY of his story is true. I tend to think at least part of it is, but who knows. I'm pretty sure not all of it is, especially since it reportedly changed a few times. Of course they haven't released video but I would think the apartment surveillance cameras would at least show who got into the driver's seat, if they capture the area where Whitney was parked.

Ugh... unless she was parked in a spot that wasn't on camera, intentionally or not. Not intentionally by Whitney, but possibly by someone else? Someone who made sure she'd only have one kinda small spot to park in (thus needing the neighbor's help to park) the night before? Sounds like it wasn't an unusual spot for her to park or all that far from where she normally would, but I do wonder if it happens to be one small area blocked by a tree or corner of a building or something. Hmmm. No theory here, just thinking "out loud."

The only part he "changed" were details about his fictional robbery.

 

[nikb]

The only part he "changed" were details about his fictional robbery.

Oh I didn't realize that, thanks! For some reason I had it in my head that a lot of other things, like timing and possibly clothing worn, had changed. Probably from reading so many different accounts of what people read/saw/thought they read/saw (myself included). I appreciate knowing the reported facts.

 

[newsjunkie]

page 33 of the affadavit. . .

***JH gave permission to ping his phone in an attempt to locate it because as he reported, it was stolen from him when he was robbed on the morning of October 16th.
One call was made from JH’s phone on October 16th. The phone call was at 6:08 am to the Starbucks that WH works at. ***

I think police were already suspicious of JH and his robbery story, but I think he became their main suspect after getting his phone records on October 17th while he was still there for his first interview. MOO

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch, in looking at your timetable, I'm still struggling with something that seems to make no sense.

Why would the killer, after shooting her 4 times, bring her car (and her body) all the way back up to home territory to fill up (or get cash at ATMs)? If the car was bloody (it was) with a broken window, seems extraordinarily risky to gas up in Troutwood when he could have filled up at almost a half dozen gas stations closer to Roslyn Lake on Hwy. 26, and then travel eastward over to Larch Mt.

Good point. My timeline is based on the reported Shell ATM and the Travel Center ATM card use.

Your proposed route would add maybe an extra half hour onto the trip according to Google Maps. The route from Thomas Road to TenEyke Road to Sandy, gassing up then East on Hwy 26 then NE on Hwy 35 puts you at Larch Mountain in under 2 hours. You have to go around Mount Hood.

Because I believe that JH falls under the Anger-Retaliatory Rapist profile, I believe his crime and actions were not well organized and unplanned. JH's life seems to revolve around 257th Street points as his Axis. I believe he didn't realize until he was on Troutdale road that he needed gas. It wasn't his car, so he didn't know how much was in the tank when he forced WH to drive him to Roslyn Lake. He could have probably made it in an hour and a half taking the backroads to Larch Mountain if he didn't have to stop for gas.

There is so much evidence that we do not know yet. A lot of unanswered questions.

 

[La Louve]

BBM I know what you mean. That's why I was thinking my question only applied if ANY of his story is true. I tend to think at least part of it is, but who knows. I'm pretty sure not all of it is, especially since it reportedly changed a few times. Of course they haven't released video but I would think the apartment surveillance cameras would at least show who got into the driver's seat, if they capture the area where Whitney was parked.

Ugh... unless she was parked in a spot that wasn't on camera, intentionally or not. Not intentionally by Whitney, but possibly by someone else? Someone who made sure she'd only have one kinda small spot to park in (thus needing the neighbor's help to park) the night before? Sounds like it wasn't an unusual spot for her to park or all that far from where she normally would, but I do wonder if it happens to be one small area blocked by a tree or corner of a building or something. Hmmm. No theory here, just thinking "out loud."

I'm not 100% certain, but I got the impression from the interview with the neighbor (that had helped Whitney park on the night of the 15th) that her car was parked on the street, where it would have been parallel parked.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion
Sasquatch, in looking at your timetable, I'm still struggling with something that seems to make no sense.

Why would the killer, after shooting her 4 times, bring her car (and her body) all the way back up to home territory to fill up (or get cash at ATMs)? If the car was bloody (it was) with a broken window, seems extraordinarily risky to gas up in Troutwood when he could have filled up at almost a half dozen gas stations closer to Roslyn Lake on Hwy. 26, and then travel eastward over to Larch Mt.

Good point. My timeline is based on the reported Shell ATM and the Travel Center ATM card use.

Your proposed route would add maybe an extra half hour onto the trip according to Google Maps. The route from Thomas Road to TenEyke Road to Sandy, gassing up then East on Hwy 26 then NE on Hwy 35 puts you at Larch Mountain in under 2 hours. You have to go around Mount Hood.

Because I believe that JH falls under the Anger-Retaliatory Rapist profile, I believe his crime and actions were not well organized and unplanned. JH's life seems to revolve around 257th Street points as his Axis. I believe he didn't realize until he was on Troutdale road that he needed gas. It wasn't his car, so he didn't know how much was in the tank when he forced WH to drive him to Roslyn Lake. He could have probably made it in an hour and a half taking the backroads to Larch Mountain if he didn't have to stop for gas.

There is so much evidence that we do not know yet. A lot of unanswered questions.

I'd agree that this crime seems very disorganized, often illogical, in fact. I'd also agree that a lot of the Action seems to revolve around the 257th St. axis. For this reason, I'm laying possible 'routes' on the back burner, though we've mapped out key places...b/c a lot of that evidence could've been dropped off later, not necessarily happening naturally during the crime. (Suspect not arrested until three days after the crime.) Rather than working off of a rapist profile of what we think JH might fit, how about considering working off the idea that 1) we know parts of his story aren't truthful (and therefore any of it is suspect)? And 2) taking a second look at the indisputable evidence and axis area, maybe?

One indisputable bit of evidence--that we know the killer himself couldn't manipulate or control--is that 9:14 AM video at the Shell station of her car gassing up with the passenger window missing or down...but the plate still on the front end. That tells me at least that the car was there after the murder, but before the drop up in the mountain.

So...here's a thought...what if the killing wasn't done down at Roslyn Lake, but closer in to that key axis area? That would explain the sudden need for gas close to home (he'd check to see if it'd make the trip up the mountain). After all, the blood/bullet evidence tells us the murder was done in her car ("the car tells the story" as LE has said)--so a trip to remote Roslyn Lake is not 'necessary' as neither the assault/kill nor the body drop were done hidden in the woods there. In fact she was said to have been shot on the side of the road (a stone's throw from a nearby house--check Bing). When you think about it, her murder could've been more hidden done in that axis area, in a garage (even a parking garage) close to home for all we really know. The only evidence found (that I've read) that ties JH to having been at Roslyn Lake at all is that cellphone. Could've barrelled back and dropped that there at a different time, to lead the investigation away from where the crime actually occurred (with far more evidence possible at the actual location).

Where he gassed up leads me to believe this, rather than what JH has told LE, in any case. Actions speak louder than oft untruthful words.

ETA: I've also read in interviews and in this thread that Whitney was apt to drive her car close to 'empty'...which to me also supports the idea that maybe the murder was done closer in to town. Otherwise the car would likely have had to get gas enroute to Roslyn Lake, prior to her murder at 8:40 am.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

The Clackamas County Probable Cause for Lodging Document states that the crime occurred on 10/16 at 8:40 (am), for 3 counts of Aggravated Murder. The later court hearing produced the formal charges (Holt1.pdf)

They left the Heatherwood Apartments at 6:45am. JH states that 5 minutes into the ride on Hogan Drive (same as 242nd) he pulled a gun on WH. They most likely circled back around to Hogan, because you can't take a left on Hwy 26 in front of their complex. If the gun was pulled out on Hogan before Powell Blvd, then they most likely took an immediate right on Powell Blvd, which is almost a straight shot to Dodge park, then up to Roslyn Lake.

From Hogan to Roslyn Lake is about 30-40 minutes. It is a peaceful route through nurseries and lots of nice scenery. There are three school zones,2 on Powell Valley Rd (1 on Lusted), a few stop signs that you go through then jump on Lusted Road, two sets of downhill curves (short in duration) and one curvy road past Dodge Park to Roslyn Lake. The roads were wet because of the heavy rains on Monday. I went that route to fish at Dodge Park on the previous Sunday, and you definitely need to slow down on some of the curves when its wet . There are some straight stretches, so you could shave probably 10 minutes off of the time if they sped through the straight stretches. Thomas Road is on the South side of the old Lake Bed, so you go down rural roads to get there.
<snipped for space>
So from 8:40am to 9:14am he drove back to Shell, possibly made a second stop after that, down on Frontage Road at Travel Centers Gas (if the reports are correct) and 40 minutes up to Larch Mountain makes it around 10:10am, he hid WH's body, probably cleaned up some more and by 11:38am he parks the vehicle at Walmart. Walks across the bridge through the trails by the apartments, throws the phone and there he is back on 257th street.
This is my guess of the timeline.

It really helps to have a local's insight, Sasquatch. If it's 30-40 minute drive from Roslyn Lake (on the high end of that during school zones), did that leave him enough time for his hurried clean up of her car between 8:40 (time of crime) and 9:14AM (time car pulls in to gas station)? That's 34 minutes between the murder and gassing up. Seems pretty tight...(I'm thinking the 'not very good job of' clean up occurred prior to the attendant-operated fill up at the gas station with that broken front window. No need to clean up a car he was going to abandon after he dropped her body off. At least, no need in killer's mind, as he left plenty of blood and evidence, anyway.)

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

It really helps to have a local's insight, Sasquatch. If it's 30-40 minute drive from Roslyn Lake (on the high end of that during school zones), did that leave him enough time for his hurried clean up of her car between 8:40 (time of crime) and 9:14AM (time car pulls in to gas station)? That's 34 minutes between the murder and gassing up. Seems pretty tight...(I'm thinking the 'not very good job of' clean up occurred prior to the attendant-operated fill up at the gas station with that broken front window. No need to clean up a car he was going to abandon after he dropped her body off. At least, no need in killer's mind, as he left plenty of blood and evidence, anyway.)

Another point of confusion for me...this article says the ATM card was used at 9:14 AM:
http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/gresham_police_spokesman_says.html

If the ATM card is being used at 9:14 AM, then the car had to have arrived even before that; wouldn't you pay the attendant after getting the gas? Does the video also show the car arriving at 9:14, or earlier?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

BBM I know what you mean. That's why I was thinking my question only applied if ANY of his story is true. I tend to think at least part of it is, but who knows. I'm pretty sure not all of it is, especially since it reportedly changed a few times. Of course they haven't released video but I would think the apartment surveillance cameras would at least show who got into the driver's seat, if they capture the area where Whitney was parked.

Ugh... unless she was parked in a spot that wasn't on camera, intentionally or not. Not intentionally by Whitney, but possibly by someone else? Someone who made sure she'd only have one kinda small spot to park in (thus needing the neighbor's help to park) the night before? Sounds like it wasn't an unusual spot for her to park or all that far from where she normally would, but I do wonder if it happens to be one small area blocked by a tree or corner of a building or something. Hmmm. No theory here, just thinking "out loud."

I was under the impression they had 'assigned' spaces at that parking lot (most apts do, and a comment was made by Amanda that she was concerned when she got home and saw JH's motorcycle parked in the 'wrong' space.) If assigned, it could explain why Whitney needed help parking that day...maybe one or two cars were parked too close to the lines for her to maneuver her SUV in comfortably...but she couldn't use another space.

 

[nikb]

I'm not 100% certain, but I got the impression from the interview with the neighbor (that had helped Whitney park on the night of the 15th) that her car was parked on the street, where it would have been parallel parked.

Sorry, I should've been a little clearer in my post. By "spot" I didn't mean actual parking space. I got the same impression that she was parked on the street. I would think it could still be captured on surveillance video if it's close to the apartment, though, unless it was in a somewhat hidden area, maybe behind a tree branch or something.

 

[Sasquatch]

I'd agree that this crime seems very disorganized, often illogical, in fact. I'd also agree that a lot of the Action seems to revolve around the 257th St. axis. For this reason, I'm laying possible 'routes' on the back burner, though we've mapped out key places...b/c a lot of that evidence could've been dropped off later, not necessarily happening naturally during the crime. (Suspect not arrested until three days after the crime.) .

WH's sweater was found off of Dodge Park Blvd (Pleasant Valley Road), which led me to believe JH was taking back roads on purpose, because Lusted is the main road to Dodge Park and coming back over the Sandy River Bridge. You have to go out of your way to go on Dodge Park Blvd.

Some instances of where 257th Street was part of JH's axis...
JH used to work at the Subway at the North end of 257th street, in Troutdale, I believe up until last August. WH's Phone was ditched on some trails off of the apartment buildings on 257th. JH was found walking on 257th when his church members noticed him and offered him a ride. Under surveillance, detectives witnessed JH ditch some 9mm ammo and a holster in the field off of NE 29th Street, which is off of 257th across from Mt. Hood Community College. Both the Shell station and Travel Centers are both off of 257th. His route exit (either near Travel Centers or Stark)up to Larch Mtn and ditching WH's vehicle at Walmart, were all around 257th.

Larch Mountain is a place a lot of East County residents go up to go target practice. I wonder if JH possibly went to that area while practice shooting his 9mm and was familiar with it. This is possibly why he chose to drive all of the way up there to conceal WH's body, maybe he was used to driving up there during the Summer for target practice.

 

[La Louve]

Sorry, I should've been a little clearer in my post. By "spot" I didn't mean actual parking space. I got the same impression that she was parked on the street. I would think it could still be captured on surveillance video if it's close to the apartment, though, unless it was in a somewhat hidden area, maybe behind a tree branch or something.

I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

I've been going on the assumption that both the Heichels and the Holts each (as a couple) had one assigned parking space in the complex. I assume Amanda parked her car in the assigned space, since in the affifavit she says that JH usually parks his motorcycle on the covered patio. Whitney and Clint may have traded off who parked in their assigned space and who had to park on the street.