IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

This thread is for discussion of what happened to Johnny Gosch if no pedo ring got him and no conspiracy of people in any pedo ring was involved in his disappearance. In other words, if you think this was a more normal crime committed either by family or stranger or serial killer this is a place to discuss the who, what, how, and why of it all.

Is there any evidence available that supports an alternative view?

The name of the current thread re Johnny Gosch is entitled, "What Happened to Johnny"? It doesn't say Johnny was kidnapped by a pedo ring, so I think any opinions on what happened to JG are welcome there. They may not be popular, but they are welcome.

docwho3 said:

This thread is for discussion of what happened to Johnny Gosch if no pedo ring got him and no conspiracy of people in any pedo ring was involved in his disappearance. In other words, if you think this was a more normal crime committed either by family or stranger or serial killer this is a place to discuss the who, what, how, and why of it all.

Click to expand...

I like this idea. I think its time to go back to basics on this case and look at the facts. I read that there were witnesses around the time he was taken. It would be interesting to know if any drawings were made of the three men that were seen at the time of Johnny's kidnapping.

I have been working on a 3d model of the mystery man pic found on www.johnnygosch.com. I only bring this up becuase the model is starting to match an unsub in another case very similar to Johnny's, Jacob Wetterling's case. If this is to close to the conspiracy theory, I'll be glad to delete the post

My reply was not meant to come across as antagonistic, but merely to suggest that what has given birth to the current view of Johnny Gosch is based largely on the evidence.

I was asking, is there any other evidence that supports an alternative view? I ask this out of curriosity, not to be contentious.

I started this thread because the other thread, regardless of its title, seemed to have been overrun with conspiracy posters. While I support the right of those to have their thread I also think a thread needed to be opened that looked at the case from the premise that I stated in post one of this thread without being drowned out by all the strident passionate voices who so strongly believe in a conspiracy of gov. officials, police, FBI etc.
I am not here to, and did not start this thread to, debate whether the conspiracy pedo ring thing is a valid topic for discussion.

To answer another posters question, (whose user name implies a conspiracy theory position) of : is their evidence to support an alternative theory? (I assume that means a none conspiracy or none pedo ring kidnapping theory, I would say: actually, all we really know is that the boy disappeared and his wagon was found a couple blocks or so from home. Some reports were made of one or more adult persons having been seen talking to the boy. I do not remember anyone actually having reported seeing him be abducted by anyone, other than a person convicted of perjury for his statements. So as far as I know the source for most of the kidnap theory comes from one person who has already been convicted of perjury in the case and whose evidence has been discounted and others who have also been convicted of perjury or who have flat recanted their previous story, so why would I need evidence to not believe that conspiracy theory? Still, for those who feel the conspiracy theories need to be supported and discussed, they have a thread where they have passionately been doing just that.

For those of us who may feel we need to look at the case again from square one from the few facts we know and treat the case as the more or less usual crime committed against a child, we now also have a thread to work from hopefully without having to argue with those who feel differently. Each group now has a thread and the threads can be read side by side by readers who can make up their own minds. Rest assured that it is most likely that the conspiracy thread will likely prove the most popular reading because, just as "aliens in the whitehouse", it is a sexier story than the more dull and more normal family or neighbor involvement or stranger abduction or serial kidnapper/killer.

But this is not a popularity contest but rather is, or should be, about finding the truth without having to fight and argue to do it. So I have started this thread and those who like the conspiracy theory have the other thread and both threads can be read by all.

You've said almost exactly how I feel. I believe that the only solid evidence we have is he was there, then he wasn't. And he may have been talking to the perp or he may not have. But he's gone and that's a tragedy.

I guess I have a hard time believing the whole conspiracy theory scenario. I guess one could argue that if it's as prolific in government as they imply, maybe many of the missing children (Cody Haynes, Beaner, Jacob, Garrett etc etc etc.) may have all been abducted and used in a similar manner. My real problem is much like my problem with multiple shooters and JFK. Until someone can provide solid proof, (not someone's individual research, not mid-night visitations or phone calls, not anonymous photos etc etc ) I'm inclined to believe the more mundane theories of abduction or accident.

That doesn't mean I don't want to see justice done and the perps held accountable. Just means I'm not convinced.

OMO

So do both parents have an established and proven alibi? This would not be the first time we have heard parents say their kid has disappeared when it turns out one or both of them had problems and had killed the boy. If I remember right this happened on a Sunday (someone mentioned the sunday paper being involved) so where were the parents actually at during the time he went missing and who, other than the parents, actually saw the boy last and has come forward to say so (without being convicted of perjury about it?)

Was someone a religious fanatic who thought working on Sunday should be punishable by death?

Kids can be, and have in fact, been grabbed right off of school grounds so why was this a Sunday event?

Sunday was often a day, back then, when a dad would be home (not at work) and also a day when most neighbors would likely be home. Saturdays often found people still working so our perp/s could have had a job that let him off on Sundays but maybe not Saturdays.
If you had an abusive dad you dreaded Sundays when he would be home all day.

Or maybe someone in the neighborhood where the paper deliveries took place did not like his day of rest interrupted, or maybe this person had a relative visiting who committed murders.

Or maybe some father thought his son should have been hired to fill a paperboy route and decided to murder the competition (Cheerleader moms have done the same thing before.)


More than one paperboy disappeared and it has often been thought the incidents might be connected and I suppose that could mean we have a serial type at work so I keep that in mind too. I can't remember so I suppose I need to reread and see if they both disappeared on a Sunday.

Also the mother has allegedly told an unsupported and unsubstantiated story of being visited by her live son years later with a very wild story. Is she truthful or crazy? Crazy like a fox with all the conspiracy stuff thrown in her story which has served to captivate case readers/sleuths for years since? Or is she someone with mental instability and if so what does that say for her possible involvement in sons disappearance. . . .or does it say anything about that possibility at all?

So far I have more questions than answers but at least the questions are based on what sort of thing has proven to be what happened in cases in the past.

I posted on the other thread that I wanted to know if Johnny's father had ever been totally cleared of any involvement. I would like to know why I don't see or hear of him speaking out to find the truth of what happened to his son. I want to know how he feels about the Pedo ring theory. I want to knwo how he feels about his ex wife claiming that Johnny came to visit her. It just seems so odd to me that he has not voiced an opinion on the bizzare tales of noreen.

I also stated that if in fact the photos delivered to her were of her son, and they were delivered on her birthday that seemed like something that would be done by a person out to hurt. Not just bruise your feelings hurt, deep cutting soul damaging hurt. who would go to that much trouble on a woman they don't know? More likely something a person who knows noreen and wants to inflict pain. OH LIKE SAY AN EX???? so again where is the father in all of this?

just some random thoughts that I have had on this case...

I though it was odd that the dad was reported to always deliver papers with him on sun and the one sun he didn't go, Johnny dissappears. That could be explained easily though. SOmeone was watching him very carefully. In my opinion a serial molester/killer was operating in the area and either did't have a lot of victims or moved on. I really think that Johnny, Eugene martin and marc Allen are related.

gidget641 said:

I posted on the other thread that I wanted to know if Johnny's father had ever been totally cleared of any involvement. I would like to know why I don't see or hear of him speaking out to find the truth of what happened to his son. I want to know how he feels about the Pedo ring theory. I want to knwo how he feels about his ex wife claiming that Johnny came to visit her. It just seems so odd to me that he has not voiced an opinion on the bizzare tales of noreen.

I also stated that if in fact the photos delivered to her were of her son, and they were delivered on her birthday that seemed like something that would be done by a person out to hurt. Not just bruise your feelings hurt, deep cutting soul damaging hurt. who would go to that much trouble on a woman they don't know? More likely something a person who knows noreen and wants to inflict pain. OH LIKE SAY AN EX???? so again where is the father in all of this?

just some random thoughts that I have had on this case...

Click to expand...

You might all do good to take a gander at the original gosch thread, which I got stickied, and is now closed. A lot of the questions your posting have been discussed ad nauseum in that thread.

William R Thomas said:

You might all do good to take a gander at the original gosch thread, which I got stickied, and is now closed. A lot of the questions your posting have been discussed ad nauseum in that thread.

Click to expand...

I have. and no I don't believe my question was answered. At least not to my satisfaction. I also do not buy into the pedo file ring theory, I do not believe that johnny appeared in the middle of the night at noreens house.

I do believe that noreen believes. That does not mean she is telling the truth. It only means that she believes what she says.

I will say this again why isn't johnny's father a more vocal figure in getting to the bottom of what happened to his son?

gidget641 said:

. . .I will say this again why isn't johnny's father a more vocal figure in getting to the bottom of what happened to his son?

Click to expand...

I did a little websearching on the question and although I did not find a satisfactory answer, I did find a couple of posts about his father that were a bit intriguing. One post on a crime blog mentioned a claim (which I remember having heard long ago) that the dad had allegedly received a bit of info from an investigator (indicating Johnny was still alive) before the investigators death but he had allegedly never told his wife about it and she later learned of the info from the investigators surviving spouse. The allegation was either alleged to be made or implied by noreen that the father was part of the conspiracy and ring involved in his disappearnce and that this was one reason she had allegedly not told the father about the visit from Johnny later. It is notable that this was all told after the investigator was dead and could not verify or refute any of the story.

The credibility of the family (or lack thereof) really bothers me. He acts like Scott Peterson in some ways by staying away from the search and she sounds like that mom that drowned her kids in the lake in her car and then cried on national TV that her kids were carjacked by a black man at a non existent stop light (except that noreens story is even more strange if possible) and who then pleaded for her childs safe return.

Nothing about this family smells like the truth or like sanity. But does that mean they were involved in the boy's disappearance? I can't rule them out entirely since the apparent time of his disappearnce may have been manipulated for all I know but I also can not say for sure they were involved since there appears to be no evidence released to the public to support it.

You may tell me how to do something

Click to expand...

If the thread Mr. Thomas mentioned didn't answer your question sufficiently, then I suggest you google Johnny Gosch or Noreen Gosch and do what most of us have done, which is to read volumes of information. That way you are forming your own opinion based on what you read.

I guess I've got the most simplistic theory on this case. I believe that Johnny and Eugene Martin were probably taken by the same sicko/sex offender and killed. It's not impossible to hide a body or two in Iowa or anywhere and not have it be discovered. I believe Marc Allen could be tied in also but I don't feel as strongly about that as I do Johnny and Eugene being connected.

The pedo ring theory just doesn't ring true for me. I'm not denying that it's possible-heck, anything is possible, I just don't think it's likely.

I had to edit to add that this case has haunted me for years. Johnny Gosch has always been "that case" for me-the one that sticks with you and you'd give anything to have solved. Regardless of the theory anyone holds I'm glad to see this case being discussed again. We live about 2 blocks from where Noreen has the Johnny Gosch Foundation and every time we walk by I think of him and how hard it must be for his mom and dad not to know.

beakiebean said:

I guess I've got the most simplistic theory on this case. I believe that Johnny and Eugene Martin were probably taken by the same sicko/sex offender and killed. It's not impossible to hide a body or two in Iowa or anywhere and not have it be discovered. I believe Marc Allen could be tied in also but I don't feel as strongly about that as I do Johnny and Eugene being connected. . .

Click to expand...

Your thoughts on the case are not bad ones at all. I have been focusing on the family because of their odd behavior but I have never ruled out a serial killer or other one or two man killer theory. I may not sound like it in some of my posts but I do often remind myself to follow the K.I.S.S. protocol (Keep It Simple Stupid) so your theory being simple is probably a good thing.

Were Johnny's parents ever polygraphed on his disappearance and if so, what were the results?

Stella said:

Were Johnny's parents ever polygraphed on his disappearance and if so, what were the results?

Click to expand...

I do not know about "ever" but I did find this bit on a website that seems to mostly support conspiracy theories:

. . . Asked Friday if she would consent to polygraph or voice stress test, Gosch said "absolutely not." . . .

Click to expand...

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b26863d4c19.htm

(Scroll down near bottom part of the page.)

Note to readers:I provided the link so the question and answer can be read in context and not to stir up a word war about whether the conspiracy theory is a valid topic. It has a thread where it is actively discussed already and does not need to be validated or scorned by me.
This thread deals with the less exotic possibilities of the case as stated in post one and the link was provided specifically because it contained info, in response to a question, about one of the parents of the gosch boy and LDT.

gidget641 said:

I have. and no I don't believe my question was answered. At least not to my satisfaction. I also do not buy into the pedo file ring theory, I do not believe that johnny appeared in the middle of the night at noreens house.

I do believe that noreen believes. That does not mean she is telling the truth. It only means that she believes what she says.

I will say this again why isn't johnny's father a more vocal figure in getting to the bottom of what happened to his son?

Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense. It's like an answer my 9 yearl old gives when he doesn't want to give you the real answer. You believe she believes it.

Maybe you can offer a better theory based on verifiable events? I'm anxious to hear it. Gidget.

William R Thomas said:

That doesn't make any sense. It's like an answer my 9 yearl old gives when he doesn't want to give you the real answer. You believe she believes it.

Maybe you can offer a better theory based on verifiable events? I'm anxious to hear it. Gidget.

Click to expand...

Will, You need to go back to the thread where you post conspiracy theory if all you can do is attack the posters in this thread. Any further confrontation designed posts will be reported. Comparing someones post to a 9 year olds level is nothing but insulting and cant be taken any other way and it violates the TOS here which I suspect you need to reread.