IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

[mjak]

That doesn't make any sense. It's like an answer my 9 yearl old gives when he doesn't want to give you the real answer. You believe she believes it.

Maybe you can offer a better theory based on verifiable events? I'm anxious to hear it. Gidget.

It makes perfect sense to me!! I read Noreen's book and I fully believe she believes Johnny was abducted by a governmental pedo ring. My perception of her book is that it is the passionate rambalings of a mentally Ill women. I believe that book is written in all honesty by the author. However, I do not subscribe to her belief. I have no other theory to offer up as One I subscribe to.
Other possible scenerious which I belive are possibilities are, the father is involved, a serial killer and yes even a governmental pedo ring. I do believe the pedo ring as a possibility just not as the deffinitive solution.

mjak

 

[loganone]

That doesn't make any sense. It's like an answer my 9 yearl old gives when he doesn't want to give you the real answer. You believe she believes it.

Maybe you can offer a better theory based on verifiable events? I'm anxious to hear it. Gidget.

The only verifiable fact that I see in this case is the fact that Johnny Gosch was taken early Sunday morning Sept 5th 1982 by two men possibly driving a blue car, according to witnesses.

Everything else, IMHO, have been theories.

 

[gidget641]

That doesn't make any sense. It's like an answer my 9 yearl old gives when he doesn't want to give you the real answer. You believe she believes it.

Maybe you can offer a better theory based on verifiable events? I'm anxious to hear it. Gidget.

What is so difficult to understand? Hey my three year old nephew BELIEVES that there is a monster in his closet, is there one? NO do I believe he THINKS the monster exists? YES very simple concept.

Ok I was trying to nicely say that I feel that this woman needs mental help. I truely think that the loss of her son has driven her to break with reality and grasp at straws.

I personally do not believe that this child was taken by some gov. pervert ring. Do I have facts to back that up NO I never claimed to. I have an opinion.
I think that one of two things happened 1. a serial sicko pervert took both johnny and eugene martin. or 2. one or both of johnnys parents are involved somehow.

Do I have fact to back up either of those theories? NO I never claimed that I did.

I asked questions that were not answered to MY satisfaction.

1. why don't I see johnny's father in the media trying to find his child? Don't all of the parents and professionals on child abduction tell you media media media that is how you keep the case on the front burner?

2. What is johnny's fathers opinion of Noreen's beliefs? Does he believe his child is alive or not.

Back to basics-clear the parents of any wrong doing and go from there. These parents do not behave in the typical manner. WHY?

 

[2sisters]

Will, You need to go back to the thread where you post conspiracy theory if all you can do is attack the posters in this thread. Any further confrontation designed posts will be reported. Comparing someones post to a 9 year olds level is nothing but insulting and cant be taken any other way and it violates the TOS here which I suspect you need to reread.

I completely agree, you beat me to the punch doc. i am so tired of posters being attacked on here by other posters who don't like what they have to say. get over it and lets behave like grown ups here.

 

[beakiebean]

I do believe that noreen believes. That does not mean she is telling the truth. It only means that she believes what she says.

I will say this again why isn't johnny's father a more vocal figure in getting to the bottom of what happened to his son?

I feel the same way you do. While I think Noreen strongly believes the pedo ring theory I'm not sure how credible that belief is.

 

[loganone]

I feel the same way you do. While I think Noreen strongly believes the pedo ring theory I'm not sure how credible that belief is.

I can believe in the pedo ring theory, but I can't believe in a massive government cover up. IMHO I don't think there is enough money or will power to quiet, kill, bully or payoff EVERY single person that could give verifiable and creditable information in the case.

Someone offered me this link as verifiable and creditable proof of the cover up

http://www.solutionassoc.com/TruthFire/blog/2005/04/rusty-nelson-interview-its-time-to.html

It is an interview with Rusty Neslon. As I was listening, I realized the audio file had been edited. I would love to find the full lenght interview to listen to it context. I couldn't get the full lenght interview to play.

Going back to the topic of this thread. I understand, from reading articles on Noreen's website, that a partial license plate number was taken down, was there any follow up on this. A blue two down car, partial license plate number, two men. Seems like these are the best clues from the beginning of the case and probably should be looked at again.

 

[Insguru]

I can believe in the pedo ring theory, but I can't believe in a massive government cover up. IMHO I don't think there is enough money or will power to quiet, kill, bully or payoff EVERY single person that could give verifiable and creditable information in the case.

Someone offered me this link as verifiable and creditable proof of the cover up

http://www.solutionassoc.com/TruthFire/blog/2005/04/rusty-nelson-interview-its-time-to.html

It is an interview with Rusty Neslon. As I was listening, I realized the audio file had been edited. I would love to find the full lenght interview to listen to it context. I couldn't get the full lenght interview to play.

Going back to the topic of this thread. I understand, from reading articles on Noreen's website, that a partial license plate number was taken down, was there any follow up on this. A blue two down car, partial license plate number, two men. Seems like these are the best clues from the beginning of the case and probably should be looked at again.

It seems somewhat rare that two Pedo's happen to hook up and adbuct kids. Usually these folks work alone.

Before we go down the Pedo/Sex path, is there any other reason for the abduction that seems to make sense? Any other motive that should be considered? Obviously this kidnapping involved no ransom demand, so that narrows down the potential motives by at least one. I just think this is worth considering.

If we do jump to the Pedo motive, then I think it is strange that two men would be involved. This would seem to lead to at least some planning and organization (or alot) between at least the two. Otherwise known as a consp...I almost said it..sorry. I think that two men would not necessarily use somone for themselves only. In my mind this might lead to an organized ring, for lack of a better term.

There was a phone call, I believe, that night before the abduction that lasted 30 seconds. Hardly a wrong number I suppose. But what does this mean? Supposedly it came from the Sioux City prefix, but tech. back then did not allow it to be traced any further. Thoughts?

 

[loganone]

It seems somewhat rare that two Pedo's happen to hook up and adbuct kids. Usually these folks work alone.

Before we go down the Pedo/Sex path, is there any other reason for the abduction that seems to make sense? Any other motive that should be considered? Obviously this kidnapping involved no ransom demand, so that narrows down the potential motives by at least one. I just think this is worth considering.

If we do jump to the Pedo motive, then I think it is strange that two men would be involved. This would seem to lead to at least some planning and organization (or alot) between at least the two. Otherwise known as a consp...I almost said it..sorry. I think that two men would not necessarily use somone for themselves only. In my mind this might lead to an organized ring, for lack of a better term.

There was a phone call, I believe, that night before the abduction that lasted 30 seconds. Hardly a wrong number I suppose. But what does this mean? Supposedly it came from the Sioux City prefix, but tech. back then did not allow it to be traced any further. Thoughts?

Unless we can learn more about Johnny's father, I think the phone call is really secondary.

For research I have been compiling a list of missing children between 1974 - 1994, and was surprised to find that quite a few cases where it is known abduction took place, there was more than one perp. There are at least 12 cases that are consistant - mind you that I am not saying these 12 cases are link in any kind of way. I feel strongly that three are linked, mainly because of time frame.

In Johnny's case, there were witnesses that saw someone, to go back to the dirty "c" word and the sex offender known as Bonacci's claim he took part in the kidnapping. Could these witnesses place him there? And if so, could it be as simple as Bonacci being the "mastermind" behind Johnny's kidnapping.

 

[docwho3]

. . .Going back to the topic of this thread. I understand, from reading articles on Noreen's website, that a partial license plate number was taken down, was there any follow up on this. A blue two down car, partial license plate number, two men. Seems like these are the best clues from the beginning of the case and probably should be looked at again.

I would agree with looking at the evidence from square one all over gain. However I personally would want that evidence to come from L.E. or MSM rather than Noreens website since I doubt her story of talking to her live son years after he disappeared and the other pics which were emailed, but were alleged to have landed on her doorstep, turned out to be faked even though she seems to think one of the people depicted is her son, if I correctly remember past posts on websleuths about the subject. Her credibility and credibility of her website is too low for me to trust info from it of any kind, including car descriptions and partial license number. I would rather have the info from a mainstream source with some established credibility.

I don't like to work without evidence but I would rather do without than to use made up fiction stuff as evidence.

 

[docwho3]

It seems somewhat rare that two Pedo's happen to hook up and adbuct kids. Usually these folks work alone. . .

No one has yet established he disappeared due to pedophiles of any kind. Otis Otoole (I think I got the name right.) had a buddy (if I am remembering the correct 2 killers) & they used to go all over the USA kidnapping and killing people, inclluding at least one or more children. Often they ate the victems, according to reports of their own statements. The had no real pedo ring or conspiracy going. They just killed people. It was what they did. They arent the only ones. Also when children are kidnapped and raped and killed (whether by one or two perps) it is most often not done for any pedo rings pleasure as perusing websleuths cases can show. However if anyone feels the need to go the conspiracy route they already have a thread to go post about it in and it is not this thread.

. . .Before we go down the Pedo/Sex path, is there any other reason for the abduction that seems to make sense? Any other motive that should be considered? . . .

See above. We need to know who did what to him and where they took him. I have not yet seen where more than one perp (or even one for that matter) was actually seen abducting him at all (I discount Bonacci for reasons posted in previous posts.) We have heard of reports of him being talked to by adults but being talked to is not being kidnapped. If Johnny was killed it does not follow that he was killed by a pedo person as any mad man can and often has killed boys, and girls too for that matter, in times past. We can't say its a pedo thing without having a pedo link of evidence and so far there isn't any.

Even if this was a pedo person I remind us all of J. Dahmmer and how he did not have any conspiracy or pedo ring backing him but he did what his lifes work was.

. . . then I think it is strange that two men would be involved. This would seem to lead to at least some planning and organization (or alot) between at least the two. Otherwise known as a consp...I almost said it..sorry. I think that two men would not necessarily use somone for themselves only. In my mind this might lead to an organized ring,. . .

First, we have no reason to jump to a conspiracy as there is nothing yet to point to one. Read up on all the cases where two to four people have teamed up to commit crimes. They often feed off of each others presence when committing a crime but they have no massive or even small group backing them with a conspiracy of any kind. They just do what they do.

Remember, if you want the ring theory or conspiracy & ring theory there is a thread already made where it is being discussed. This thread is for those more common possibilites as stated in post one of this thread.

. . . There was a phone call, I believe, that night before the abduction that lasted 30 seconds. Hardly a wrong number I suppose. But what does this mean? Supposedly it came from the Sioux City prefix, but tech. back then did not allow it to be traced any further. . .

This info came from where?

 

[docwho3]

. . .In Johnny's case, there were witnesses that saw someone, to go back to the dirty "c" word and the sex offender known as Bonacci's claim he took part in the kidnapping. Could these witnesses place him there? And if so, could it be as simple as Bonacci being the "mastermind" behind Johnny's kidnapping.

Again this is not repeat not, repeat not, repeat not, repeat not, repeat not,the conspiracy thread. You know it and yet you are trying to foist it off in this thread. You have a thread where that theory is most welcome but as per the title and the post one of this thread tells us all, this is the non conspiracy thread. Bonacci is not credible period. Convicted of perjury-yes? Mentally ill yes? You still want to believe the conspiracy, fine no problem, just go to that thread where it is welcome and post all you want about it. I think you have every right to post there about it and I support that but we also have the right here to look at the case from a different premise without constantly being badgered by conspiracy proponents who already have a thread to post in.

 

[loganone]

Again this is not repeat not, repeat not, repeat not, repeat not, repeat not,the conspiracy thread. You know it and yet you are trying to foist it off in this thread. You have a thread where that theory is most welcome but as per the title and the post one of this thread tells us all, this is the non conspiracy thread. Bonacci is not credible period. Convicted of perjury-yes? Mentally ill yes? You still want to believe the conspiracy, fine no problem, just go to that thread where it is welcome and post all you want about it. I think you have every right to post there about it and I support that but we also have the right here to look at the case from a different premise without constantly being badgered by conpiracy proponents who already have a thread to post in.

I do apologize. My intent was to disprove a conspiracy theory not promote one. I guess what I typed didn't not come across the way that I meant.

 

[docwho3]

I do apologize. My intent was to disprove a conspiracy theory not promote one. I guess what I typed didn't not come across the way that I meant.

In that case please accept my apologies. I certainly don't intend to be mean or jump to conclusions about you.

The only thing about spending posts and time disproving any conspiracy theories seems to me to be that it risks angering those posting in the conspiracy thread who may see it as some sort of attack on their right to believe their theories.

In this threadersonally, if unprovoked, I am trying to keep my posts to what might have really happened to Johnny that is in keeping with the title and post number one of this thread while others explore what they think might have really happened to him within the broader scope of the other thread, hopefully without either thread warring with the other which could get the trouble makers banned and the threads locked until it is all sorted out.

 

[loganone]

In that case please accept my apologies. I certainly don't intend to be mean or jump to conclusions about you.

The only thing about spending posts and time disproving any conspiracy theories seems to me to be that it risks angering those posting in the conspiracy thread who may see it as some sort of attack on their right to believe their theories.

In this threadersonally, if unprovoked, I am trying to keep my posts to what might have really happened to Johnny that is in keeping with the title and post number one of this thread while others explore what they think might have really happened to him within the broader scope of the other thread, hopefully without either thread warring with the other which could get the trouble makers banned and the threads locked until it is all sorted out.

Totally understandable. The phone call mentioned in another post.. I believe that information comes from Noreen's book. I know it can be found in a PDF file on her website.

 

[docwho3]

Totally understandable. The phone call mentioned in another post.. I believe that information comes from Noreen's book. I know it can be found in a PDF file on her website.

Thanks for the info. This case is frustrating due to lack of real evidence for us in the public. I hate to throw out something just because it was on noreens website but personally, I have to if it is not corroborated by L.E. She may have info linked to her website that is corroborated by MSM such as an L.E. news release. I would feel much more comfortable factoring in something to my thoughts on what happened to Johnny, like a phone call or a partial plate number or a witness (other than Bonacci) who saw the boy talking to someone, if that fact is listed in MSM somewhere as coming from L.E. instead of a news report simply listing what was the latest noreen story or the latest Bonacci claim. Part of the problem is that this case is so very old and cold that not much info from L.E. is available to the public. Just when you think you have a fact to hang your hat on you find it is something that came from noreens website or was something that came from someone discredited for perjury and mental illness and who is himself a pedophile and who "confessed" to being there when the victem died (shades of J.M.Karr.) Note to readers: That is not meant as a slam at the conspiricists but is meant to express my frustration at not having verifiable facts from L.E. about simple things such as: was there a partial car license number turned in as having been seen in the area at about the time it is assumed he went missing? Was there actually anyone who saw Johnny on his paper route? Was there anyone actually seen talking to Johnny while he was on that paper route that day of his disappearance.
I don't want the info to only come from the mother or from any family member as a family members info is always suspect in the disappearance of a child.
I don't want the info to come from any discredited source. I want a gander at the L.E. files on the case. Short of that I want what tidbits come from L.E. (Law Enforcement) to the MSM (Main Stream Media.) I will consider news paper articles about eyewitness evidence offered by people who lived in the neighborhood at the time of the disappearance if they have not been discredited in some way. I know. . . . I am very picky.

 

[Roy Harrold]

I still think that John Joubert, the serial killer of paperboys operating in Nebraska very near the time of Gosch's disappearance, is a possible suspect.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/john_joubert/index.html

The FBI apparently ruled out a connection, but there is little information as to what they based that on. One of the differences between the Gosch case and Joubert's known victims, is that Joubert seems to have wanted his victims to be found. But, is it possible that Joubert could have placed a body where he assumed it would be found and was thwarted in his intent by circumstance? For example, feral dogs dragging the body away, or the body rolling down an embankment into underbrush or a body of water?

 

[loganone]

I don't want the info to only come from the mother or from any family member as a family members info is always suspect in the disappearance of a child.
I don't want the info to come from any discredited source. I want a gander at the L.E. files on the case. Short of that I want what tidbits come from L.E. (Law Enforcement) to the MSM (Main Stream Media.) I will consider news paper articles about eyewitness evidence offered by people who lived in the neighborhood at the time of the disappearance if they have not been discredited in some way. I know. . . . I am very picky.

There is nothing wrong with being picky.

 

[Roy Harrold]

One thing I dislike about the Crime Library article on Joubert, is the emphasis on FBI profiler Ressler's speculations as he investigated the kidnap & murder of Danny Joe Eberle.

Some of Ressler's speculations at that time; that Eberle was his first victim, that the perp was not a serial killer - are proven incorrect as the investigations continue. But by emphasizing these incorrect early assumptions, people could be misled in their mental picture of Joubert's suitability as a suspect in other crimes - particularly if people don't bother to read the article all the way through (something I am sometimes guilty of myself).

 

[Insguru]

Yes the phone call is mentioned on the web several places, but I have seen nothing "official" about this. What I recall reading is that there were several "wrong numbers" the nights prior to the abduction and that the police were able to "trace" the one immediately prior to him being taken, as having lasted 30 seconds and from Sioux City.

This may be complete BS, or could be very true. Again, and as is mentioned, there is a complete lack of any official report, information, etc., available to the public.

Recently in Georgia where I live, the police released the case file on a crime, in order to help solve the mystery. I wonder if any of their file could be released? I'm not afraid to contact them and ask, if anyone thinks that would be appropriate. Maybe someone already has over the years. Would love to see the "facts" on their interviews, witnesses, car description, etc.

So much (if not all) we get on the web, seems to have no source that can easily verified. Even if we could get the name of one of the detectives, assuming they are now retired, we could see what info he might tell.

 

[Insguru]

Beyond the "phone call" (and gee, if this is true, doesn't anyone besides me think this is just a little bit important????), we hear nothing about the father or the 2 siblings (older I think, than Johnny) in terms of how they "acted" back then or what their thoughts are today on all of this. Obviously they are not publicity seekers, but I find it strange that you can find no comments, etc., from any of them, especially after the pictures came out a few weeks back.


I'm not even convinced I understand the "official" report of how many people abducted him..if its one or two..so many important details seem to be sketchy.