16 Different Versions of Darlie's story

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

In fact it is all those little freaky things in nature things that people don't think about that gets them caught. Clinging to the fabric of the clothing of the individual. Darlie, Darin, an intruder whoever, Washed and dried clothes in a basket that haven't been folded often still have static cling until they are separated and folded.

I see this every week as I delay folding that last load of towels on laundry day..... Yuck thats tomorrow why did you have to remind me..... :laugh:

The blood on the sock is only that of the boys. So little of it is Darlie's dna that it came from saliva or skin cells. The limb hair found on the sock was not tested.

A facial hair not belonging to Darin, Darlie, was also found. Don't they keep a data base of all ambulance drivers and police officers dna. Sure would help in investigations like this one. Police and life saving teams are the 1 st responders and the ones most likely to leave false clues at crime scenes.

 

[beesy]

I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain

The blood was in drops, not a transfer. I can't even comment on the static cling idea.

The knife was from the house why take it, taking the knife brought with them would mean less chance of tracing that weapon back to them.

Because that is not normally done. If the guy was there to rob the place, fine, maybe no weapon, but if he was there to kill or kidnap, weapon. So why was he there? Douglas was referring to burglars or rapists, not killers or baby snatchers.

No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm

Because someone bleeding from the arm held the knife in a downwards position long enough to cause the blood to accumulate at the tip. The knife was then placed down on the carpet near where Damon died which caused an outline. The blood was mostly Darlie's in the outline. So cami is asking in your theory, who did that?

Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more.

It's Devon, it's Devon, the first boy killed was the oldest son, Devon.

The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job

Your intruder doesn't have enough time to do all of that. Damon would be dead before the medics got there.

This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave, to prevent being caught. There might have been enough noise downstairs to make the killer believe that anyone else in the house could have heard it too. The glass top table was overturned.

So was he there to kill, snatch, rape or rob? He only did one of those and that's the one which makes the least sense for a stranger to do.

 

[cami]

I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.

How convenient. I wonder where Darlie's blood is on the sock? Unless the knife with the boys blood was wiped on that sock or it was dipped in their blood, how did it get there? The boys had seepage sounds, not spurting wounds. That wouldn't lend itself to cling on if the alleged intruder used it somehow to wipe or dip it in their blood and it's not logical to believe he passed through there and only transferred their blood to a sock and nothing else, a sock that just happens to follow him out, imo.

No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm.

No that's true it wasn't, that's one more evidentiary item that goes against Darlie. The blood evidence indicates someone bleeding from the forearm stood there, near Damon, holding the knife in his/her hand while the blood flowed down and over it concentrating in the tip. Darlie is the only one bleeding from the forearm and it's her blood on the knife.

Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job.
No matter who did the killing no one wanted to be caught.

I believe Devon was murdered first, then Damon was stabbed the first time. Darlie then self-inflicted her own wounds, most likely at the kitchen sink considering the amount of blood that flowed there and the clean up. Then Damon was heard moving so he was stabbed again, more forcefully, fatally. The blood indicates this is what happened. We would all like it if it did but unfortunately you have to go where the evidence leads and it all leads to her. Dalie's blood dripping off the knife onto the carpet near Damon indicates she was holding the murder weapon in the murder room and not in the kitchen as she said she had.

Quite true, no one wanted to get caught, especially not Darlie. That's an instinctive human reaction isn't it, we want to avoid repercussions when we screw up. :slap:

 

[Mary456]

I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room.

What...dufus didn't bring his can of Static Guard? Silly boy :slap:

And what a tenacious tube sock it was. Hung in there for 75 yards!

 

[Mary456]

:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? :laugh: :laugh:

Not really static cling, Goody. It was snagged on his hunting knife, and he figured if caught by the cops, he could wave it as a sign of surrender

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

The testimony about the tool marks on the knife are right before Bevels testimony in volume 39.

The static cling or even the person picking it up to wipe their hands on. 5 drops of blood were found on it 3 from 1 boy 2 from the other, according to the trial transcript.

If the reason for bringing the knife was to cut the stereo wires for a burglary to expedite the snatch and grab.

 

[beesy]

The testimony about the tool marks on the knife are right before Bevels testimony in volume 39.

Do you know how to cut and paste? I'm very curious about this, but I don't have time to read his entire testimony. Or perhaps you could give me the Q and A numbers? What does Bevel say it means? Not what does Jane say, but Bevel?

If the reason for bringing the knife was to cut the stereo wires for a burglary to expedite the snatch and grab.

What knife? What stereo? Nobody did that though. You can't just invent things. Ask Jim, you're writing a novel.

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.

go to volume 38 his name is Poole he found tools marks on one of Devons ribs. He testifies before Bevel. Right at the beginning I think. I am not computer savvy enough to do a cut and paste.

 

[cami]

:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? Sorry but I just had to ask! :laugh: :laugh:

aaaaaaaahhahah Goody that's Jeffrey's old theory way back when from GAC. Nothing new, Jane must know Jeff, maybe they work together at the factory, er NASA

 

[cami]

That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.

Clothing fibres matching Damon's clothes were found on the knife as well as fibres from Darlie's night shirt, proving that the butcher knife was in Damon's clothes and hence his back as well as in Darlie's nightshirt. Devon was bare skinned so no clothing fibres from him on the knife. Yes, the lack of Devon's blood on the knife is just another red herring, it's on her nightshirt, the back splash and the sink trap and the tap I think as well. I don't recall testimony that Devon's ribs received any knife slashes but I would have to read the testimony and autopsy again. aaaaah found it and posted it at the end here. edited to add this.

 

[cami]

go to volume 38 his name is Poole he found tools marks on one of Devons ribs. He testifies before Bevel. Right at the beginning I think. I am not computer savvy enough to do a cut and paste.

Yeah and here's what he says.....

9 Q. Now State's Exhibit 67. Were you also
10 asked to examine the weapon found in the Routier kitchen?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to
13 compare that as well to the breast plate, the hole in
14 Devon Routier?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. What was your conclusion with that?
17 A. My conclusion was that the
18 characteristics of the damage that was present on the
19 cartilage, was similar to the test marks that I received
20 in making stabs with this knife.
21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098

1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?
6
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3099

1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
4 Q. Just a thing or two, Mr. Poole. You
5 examined, I take it, both of those wounds, did you?
6 A. I did, sir, yes.
7 Q. Would we be safe in assuming that in
8 the course of the thoroughness of your examination, you
9 discussed those wounds with the autopsying physician?
10 A. I did not, sir.
11 Q. You did not?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you then if

14 you had an opinion, within your field of expertise, as to
15 whether or not the child was standing, sitting or lying
16 down, at the time that those injuries were inflicted?
17
18 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I'll
19 object to that, he said that he didn't have the
20 discussion.
21 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him
22 answer if he knows.
23 THE WITNESS: I have no opinion as to
24 the position of the victim at the time of the stabbing.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3100

1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I

18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.
19 Q. Could you tell whether or not both

20 punctures, both injuries, both stab wounds were made by
21 the same instrument?
22 A. No, sir, because the upper wound
23 didn't have any of those characteristics that I could use
24 to discriminate the characteristics of the instrument
25 that was used.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3101

1 Q. Okay. I take it then, your answer is
2 that the stab wounds as you examined them are consistent
3 with being inflicted by separate, different weapons?
4 A. No, sir. I'm not saying separate or
5 different. The one has no characteristics that I could
6 use to make any kind of judgment, other than it's there.

7 And the second one did have an abundance of markings that
8 allowed me to identify the class or the style of the
9 instrument that was used. But I cannot determine whether
10 or not this was the specific instrument used.
11 Q. And you can't tell us whether these
12 knives or knives like these could have been used to make
13 the upper injury?
14 A. That's correct, sir. I don't have any
15 idea about the instrument that was used to make that
16 upper one.
17 Q. So, you are saying that these knives
18 then could have been used to make the higher of the two
19 injuries?
20 A. Those knives and any other instrument
21 capable of penetrating.
22 Q. You know, I notice with interest
23 that -- see if you notice this: You notice that these
24 wounds are made at different angles?
25 A. Yes, sir.


1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
4 Q. Mr. Poole, that knife, is it still
5 there in front of you?
6 A. It's here on the side.
7 Q. State's Exhibit No. 67. Could that
8 knife have caused both wounds to Devon Routier?
9 A. It could have.


Link to Poole's testimony

I think you took a giant step with this testimony. He does not conclusively rule out the knife used on Damon as the weapon that was used on Devon. In fact, he says the tool marks have similar characteristics to the test cuts he made.

 

[beesy]

aaaaaaaahhahah Goody that's Jeffrey's old theory way back when from GAC. Nothing new, Jane must know Jeff, maybe they work together at the factory, er NASA

I do believe although he was banned, he is still spreading his poisoned mouth.

 

[beesy]

19 Q. Let me show you what has been admitted
20 into evidence as the Guzman -- the knives found around

21 the Guzman home, Nos. 21 and 22. And ask you if you
22 received those?
23 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
24 Q. Did you examine those knives to
25 determine if they made the wound in Devon Routier?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3097

1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
2 Q. And what was your conclusion?
3 A. That these knives can be excluded,
4 that is, that these knives did not make at least one of
5 the cuts in the chest plate of the young -- of Devon.

6 Q. So those knives did not cause that
7 hole. Is that what you are telling us?
8 A. That's correct.
Notice the much-talked about Guzman knives are totally ruled out for the wound on which he found the tool marks. The other wound's tool marks were too degraded to test.

 

[beesy]

Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knife

Where are you getting this nick or burr thing? I saw nothing like that mentioned in Poole's testimony. One wound on Devon had a good quality tool mark and on the other wound the tool mark was damaged.

The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used

I thought you just said the nick or burr was on the knife used to stab Devon. I'm not going to lie, you've got me so nuts I want to bash my face into the computer. Are you theorizing there's a nick or burr because Poole said something about a serration and did Poole mention a nick or burr?

Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive"

See posts #51 and #52

I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.

She rinsed it off. She did not have to get rid of any nicks or burrs because there weren't any

The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives

No, Darlie killed Devon, no doubt on that one. She thought she killed Damon, but Darin might or might not have given him the fatal wound, one knife.

 

[G.I.RattlesnakeJane]

I think if I do this blood reconstruction then it will help.

The position of the spots is real important too. I will attempt all scenarios put forth but I think only a few posters are cabable of directing which ones to try and duplicate.

Bevel gets very specific as to the location width between spots. I can circle this area. I think it would be wise to put Darlie in the both positions that could result in cast off in front of and behind the knife.

Bevel also gets very specific in his off canter position and I had already surmised that from the directionality of the spots and the location.

The plumb bob could help to postion my model before she starts.

I need some timing events like some knowns.

Anybody willing to make a list for me to follow.

I need to know which came first the chicken or the egg.

How much total blood volume did Darlie lose? I think I have her bleeding ability solved!

 

[cami]

Where are you getting this nick or burr thing? I saw nothing like that mentioned in Poole's testimony. One wound on Devon had a good quality tool mark and on the other wound the tool mark was damaged.

Beesy if you re read what Jane wrote, she is surmising, speculating there is a nick or a burr. There is no testimony from Poole whatsoever that the murder weapon contained nicks/burrs.

I thought you just said the nick or burr was on the knife used to stab Devon. I'm not going to lie, you've got me so nuts I want to bash my face into the computer. Are you theorizing there's a nick or burr because Poole said something about a serration and did Poole mention a nick or burr?
See posts #51 and #52

The knife was not serrated and that's not what Poole testified to. Here is all that is mentioned about serrations:

21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098

1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?

7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24


On Cross Examination, Mulder asks him if "that serrated knife" was used to make the upper stab wound...well judge for yourself but I think he is referring to the Guzman knife.

1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I

18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.

Link to the testimony

 

[beesy]

The knife was not serrated and that's not what Poole testified to. Here is all that is mentioned about serrations

I understand now. Smoke and mirrors again! I was almost snared! Thank you!

 

[txsvicki]

Did I read all this correctly? The breast plate, the cartilage, was where there was more damage to either bone or cartilage in other wounds, actually penetrate, and that it showed the markings? I know from seeing a bypass operation that the area is pretty hard to cut through . Another thing that amazes me is how both boys have 1 7/8 - 2 inch wide cuts that go in between the ribs. These are the the wounds that go so deep and I do not see how a person could stab two people in the same way like that without feeling around for the space between the ribs or visualizing it. I think those wounds were planned pretty carefully. How is Jane going to recreate the rib cages and chest plate in a dummy?

 

[beesy]

Yes, the wound listed as Stab Wound #1 penetrated 5" and touched his back by 1/16", so almost went all the way through him. Poole found 2 tool marks, one which was too damaged to study and the other which he said could have been caused by the white-handled knife. Go to http://www.justicefordarlie.net/galleries/galleries.php and gallery 5.
The Guzman knives found down the alley were totally ruled out, not maybe, but out, on the wound with the good tool mark.

How is Jane going to recreate the rib cages and chest plate in a dummy?

I hate to think

 

[beesy]

He doesn't know that Darin can't hear him. It is more important to flee the scene and get away than to spend anymore time in the house.

How did he know Darin was there?