2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[scandi]

I absolutely 100% agree with you about the moving of a dead body, no matter how it is wrapped! My post above was made in a state of snark, I will admit, because I think the defense's opening statements veered so wide of the mark when they brought him in that it verged on the ridiculous, IMO.

We know that Caylee was alive on June 15 2008 because she appears in the heart-breakingly sweet videos taken by Cindy on that day of Caylee with her great-grandpa at the assisted care facility.

However the "June 9/June 7 misunderstanding" arose initially, it's clear that Caylee was alive on Sunday June 15 2008. Alive, and hugging and singing to her great-grandpa (Cindy's father).

Sometime on Monday June 16 2008 was allegedly the last time anyone other than ICA saw Caylee alive. And somewhere in the range of 2.6 days later, ICA was asking her neighbor if she could borrow his shovel....

RK is IMO one more pawn in this weird game ICA has going on with her parents.

And, I am back to sitting on my hands. :blowkiss:

Gosh, It's been so long since I really kept up with Caylee's case I had forgotten the date and Googled it. :floorlaugh: I still got it wrong! Thanks for the update. I agree about RK. ;}

 

[ynotdivein]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components
620, wenwe4, helpful outline/tracing of shape of child in stain

HTH!

Bumping for reference

 

[ynotdivein]

664 – Azlawyer – Do dark bands on image of arm represent duct tape (w/links to LE photos)
683 – LCoastMom – Link to another view of possible hand/fingers with dark band @ wrist
693-695 – wenwe/TallyHo/faefrost – possible shovel line on image; if tape is there = restraint = no accident
701 – ynot – Link to grid map of remains site and items located there (Q104 near arm bones)
712 – Tally – link to BeanE post on what items Q104 was found with
713 – Truth Prevails – Links to video of JA describing Caylee’s possible last moments (KC’s “make him stop” moment)
718 – Intermezzo – Link to thread “The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape Found NOT on Remains” (Q104)
734 – AZ – Link to LE picture of Q104
747-755 – Various – Discussion of toe position in image of stain
767 – bogeygal – Link to article about body staining in absence of actual remains
775ff – lemon and others – Theory on what caused white curved line at upper arm area of stain image
781 – cloud9 – Link to image of decomp fluid purging from nose comp. to image of red staining on outside of white trash bag taken from KC’s trunk ***warning GRAPHIC***
791 – 3doglady – Image of white curved line on upper arm portion of stain
795 – MADJGNLAW – Link to excellent LIBS article (thanks also to other posters who shared this)
802 – Chiquita72 – Partial transcription of GA statement to LE on 07/24/08 re: stain/smell
817 – LambChop – Thoughts on process to obtain “shroud of Turin” type image + squirrels
829 – joypath – “It is believed that the unconscious person does NOT have a reaction” to the absence of air.
839 – joypath – On foot image pre/post rigor; decomp rate; stain process; chloroform as fixative
848 – lemon – Stain image outlined to show hands in Caylee’s lap area
861 – AZ – Foot image focus in LE photos (toes)
868 – LcoastMom – Actual temps in Orlando 6/16/08 mean 81/max 90/min 73
880 – AZ – Is there an imprint of one of the letters on the “Big Trouble” shirt visible in the trunk stain?
896 – Chiquita – Link to LE trunk liner & car seat photos (photos 21, 22, 23 at this link represent area where Caylee’s head would have laid)
918 fwd – CarrieSis & others – sorting out image where Caylee’s head would have laid
944 – AZ – Clarifies Caylee was laying with her back against the rear bumper side of trunk, not the back seats :blushing:
948 – CarrieSis – theory that impression is Caylee face down
963 – pip – Picture of a Sunfire trunk/liner (NOT KC’s) for spatial relations
966 – AZ – Herding cats/debunking misconceptions
976 – 3doglady – spatially rotated image looking into KC’s trunk at stain
987 – 3doglady – Stain with outline showing hands bound behind back
1014 – AZ – Theory re: Caylee’s arms bound behind her back in two places supported by fact that LE photos focus so intently on these areas on the trunk liner

Bumping for yet more reference.

Please note, I have not indexed past these points, and these indexes are by no means complete--so if I missed your helpful post please do not take offense! :tyou:

 

[LaLaw2000]

I watch the trial every day and read the trial threads, but do not post during the day.

The stain on the white trash bag bothered me when I saw the pic of it today. Could the stain on the side of the bag have come from the trunk liner being wet (from cleaning) when the trash bag was placed in the trunk? I just cannot get the stain on the trunk liner out of my mind as well as the stain or residue of something on that white trash bag.

The chain of custody of the evidence is long and may be boring, but has to be well established. I am so anxiously awaiting the testimony of the testing of those articles of evidence!

 

[ynotdivein]

I hope this latest screen shot makes sense. My method is definitely uncertain and my brain needs to reboot.
The purple on the wheel cover is actually where the color changed for me on the spare tire cover. Whereas with the rest of the trunk, the greenish tint from left directly at the brake light wrapping up, running behind the back seat and the right bump at the right rear changed on the other photos.

Now visualize that, in here;

I have been trying to be able to recognize decomposition by comparison :waitasec:

Bumping for LA. Short answer: yes IMO that reddish stain does come from the bag laying on the trunk liner and soaking up decomp and who knows what else...

 

[LaLaw2000]

Bumping for LA. Short answer: yes IMO that reddish stain does come from the bag laying on the trunk liner and soaking up decomp and who knows what else...

Thank you, ynotdivein!

 

[wenwe4]

I agree with Ynot - the reddish stain is decomp fluids on the exterior of the trash bag from the trunk......(along with any other liquids and moisture) I do not concur with JB that the trash was soaking wet, but may have had some condensation inside the bag and maybe a few items were damp.....Furthermore, KC knew her Dad would be detailing her car every week if it were home.....yet another reason that she could not let parents have access to the car......(IMO)

See Ynots incredible index to this thread a few posts upthread #1122 & #1123 - it is an amazing down and dirty to many of the best posts and work done by WS'rs over the past (nearly 3 years) ....this is one of my favorite threads due to the talent, passion, knowledge, insight an abilities are right here in an indexed format. If you haven't reviewed an entire topic on WS or haven't seen this topic ..... to use KC's words...."trust me" - you will be amazed. (I am not a known diabolical liar . . . to my knowledge) Enjoy!!!

 

[flourish]

Does anyone have a guess as to when we might see the state introduce this? IIRC, the defense's motion to exclude was denied, and I can't recall which forensic person or people or even which department...anyone got any help, guesses and/or a better memory about that?

 

[catnron]

I could not find where this post should go, Thought here would be ok. I did not get to see the trial today, but I did get to see Mondays.
I just heard the news about DR. Vass miss reading the bottles and Baez having field day about this. Dr. Vass is not one to make mistakes often, I would think. As I watched him on the stand yesterday, which he was on the stand all day,It seemed he was getting tired, he kept taking his glasses on and off during the day and at times he kept them off for awhile. My thoughts are that because he may have been so tired and also may have had his glasses off at the time he read the can, could that have made him make such a big mistake? This man is to be respected for what he does in his work, I hate to see him torn apart like this because of him being so tired and couldn't see.
My heart goes out to Mr Vass.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm missing part of the trial, the talking heads never mention it, and neither do posters. Have carpet samples been tested from the stain, and have the results been made known? The testimony talking about whether there is decomp in air or actual fibers is getting confusing. What has been said so far?

 

[angeldust]

Im thinking that last pic with the trash bag with the red stuff on it was taken whilst in the dumpster and not the trunk of the car doesnt look like the trunk to me so its probably just yuk from the dumpster.

If there was that much decomp (as there looks to be lots on the floor) there would be no
question about what it was Im a making sense I know what I mean lol

 

[flourish]

I've watched a good chunk of the trial so far (not everything, though) and I've heard the stain referred to (particularly w/Vass) but this image...I haven't seen or heard of it yet...it's hard to wait for things--I'm a gimme-it-now kinda person!

 

[MDdetective]

I'm missing part of the trial, the talking heads never mention it, and neither do posters. Have carpet samples been tested from the stain, and have the results been made known? The testimony talking about whether there is decomp in air or actual fibers is getting confusing. What has been said so far?

Great question. I've missed a lot of the trial.

 

[bananarama]

After watching the last two days' testimony, I'm having a little problem with the stain in the trunk. The SA has shown us the cover of the spare tire well several times. If the stain that we have been analyzing on this thread was decomp fluid, wouldn't it still smell? The entire courtroom would have been exposed to it considering the number of times it's been held up for all to see. I still believe that there was a leak of some sort for the trunk to be stinking so much, but how could it be the size of a toddler and not still stink to high heaven? Someone please help me with this!

 

[wenwe4]

I could not find where this post should go, Thought here would be ok. I did not get to see the trial today, but I did get to see Mondays.
I just heard the news about DR. Vass miss reading the bottles and Baez having field day about this. Dr. Vass is not one to make mistakes often, I would think. As I watched him on the stand yesterday, which he was on the stand all day,It seemed he was getting tired, he kept taking his glasses on and off during the day and at times he kept them off for awhile. My thoughts are that because he may have been so tired and also may have had his glasses off at the time he read the can, could that have made him make such a big mistake? This man is to be respected for what he does in his work, I hate to see him torn apart like this because of him being so tired and couldn't see.
My heart goes out to Mr Vass.

IMO this was not just Dr. Vass' mistake.....JA handed the wrong can over....Dr V said he recognized it (remember he kept saying he didn't recognize boxes they just looked like boxes)....and JB looked at every item and approved it as well....I think the jury gets it that it was just a simple mistake and it happened right in front of them.....they assuredly know there was no malice intended...not sure about the exact moments - I haven't researched but both JA and Dr. V had glasses and in fact JA had to grab the other pair one time when he was asking Dr. V questions about evidence.

 

[wenwe4]

Does anyone have a guess as to when we might see the state introduce this? IIRC, the defense's motion to exclude was denied, and I can't recall which forensic person or people or even which department...anyone got any help, guesses and/or a better memory about that?

not sure but it will be between now and 6/17 or 6/18 ....see the link for acandyrose...very detailed calendar as it outlines the timeline of how the SA and LE received evidence and that appears to be the order the SA are adhearing to. They are appearing to go day by day of who did what after the initial 911 calls.

I'm missing part of the trial, the talking heads never mention it, and neither do posters. Have carpet samples been tested from the stain, and have the results been made known? The testimony talking about whether there is decomp in air or actual fibers is getting confusing. What has been said so far?

carpet samples have been tested...Dr. V testified a little sample contained in the can made him jump back 2 feet due to the smell...surprised such a tiny sample would be so strong to smell.

the carpet (trunk liner) samples have tested positive for high levels of chloroform according to Dr. V.....Mike Rickenbach found some chloroform in them as well.

decomp odor components have been detected by Dr. V @ the body farm

Im thinking that last pic with the trash bag with the red stuff on it was taken whilst in the dumpster and not the trunk of the car doesnt look like the trunk to me so its probably just yuk from the dumpster.

If there was that much decomp (as there looks to be lots on the floor) there would be no
question about what it was Im a making sense I know what I mean lol

see ynot's and my comments upthread a few posts re: this topic.....there is a picture of the bag inside the dumpster before anyone touched it - the red stain is showing on the side of that bag that is not touching the bottom of the dumpster...also the other bag next to it doesn't have red stain visible in the trash can.

Great question. I've missed a lot of the trial.

see above

After watching the last two days' testimony, I'm having a little problem with the stain in the trunk. The SA has shown us the cover of the spare tire well several times. If the stain that we have been analyzing on this thread was decomp fluid, wouldn't it still smell? The entire courtroom would have been exposed to it considering the number of times it's been held up for all to see. I still believe that there was a leak of some sort for the trunk to be stinking so much, but how could it be the size of a toddler and not still stink to high heaven? Someone please help me with this!

we are now nearly 3 years post decomp...I have to say I expected something to smell in that courtroom but they have been dry stored in breathable packaging (for the most part) for a very long time ...even if stored in a black plastic bag after a period of time of being aired out - I imagine the scent disappaits (sic?) ....the lack of a smell now in all of the items (with the exception of the sealed can) is not a big shock to me....the smell in the can may or may not still hold the odor.....still not sure if the SA are going to try and have the jurors attempt to smell it...but we have moved onto computer forensics so I am guessing they decided not to (IMO)

Please see YNot's posts about 20 posts back on the indexing (2 posts) of this thread to the pictures, all of the work done here and an outline of Caylee's image on the liner....the indexes are more posts that shows the pictures and info we @ WS have been pondering over for since the evidence was released.

 

[ynotdivein]

I too was very surprised to see JA hauling the spare tire cover hither and yon in the courtroom. From what posters who've experienced it have said here and on other threads, that smell doesn't just "air out" of items, even after years. So I am :waitasec: and very much placing faith in the fact that at the time, a small sample of that carpet, heat-sealed in an air-tight container, made even Dr. Vass jump back.

And after all the work WSers have put in here, yes I will be heartbroken if the stain comes across as less than compelling to the jurors. I really believe it's one of the last pictures Caylee left for us...

 

[angeldust]

Hi YNOT

I think it looks like another bag had been on top of it and had been leaking so when that bag was removed to get to her bags it may just be transfered from a bag that may have been on top of it ... maybe x a

 

[wenwe4]

bumpin

 

[ynotdivein]

bumping