2010.04.21 Do the police have enough evidence to rule this a homicide?

[cluciano63]

I think they should just charge Misty with homicide. That is the only way she will tell the truth, if she did not kill Haleigh and knows who did. They could always drop charges, if she decides to tell the truth and passes a polygraph while doing it and offers proof of who did kill Haleigh. She will go nuts if only she is charged, especially if she was not alone in this. LE can alway charge others after she is charged and hopefully tells the true story. IMO

 

[butterfly1978]

I'm quite certain this is the improper location to pose this question and a new thread may be the best place, however, what are everyone's thoughts on motive?

I'm new to the case and have spend the last few days and nights reading as much as I can on it, as heart-breaking as it is, but just wonder the mostly the why when considering the who/what/when/where/why/how... TIA

First off WELCOME to WS...
:Welcome-12-june:

The best thing to do to get caught up is review the case calender. It has all the important events and links to media reports. You can find the case calendar here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?s=&c=7&week=&month=2&year=2009

 

[Leila]

I'm sure LE has evidence from the MH, and possibly some evidence found in the river search. Somewhere along the line, they've found evidence that Haleigh is deceased. I don't think LE would state that this case is now a homicide based on anything any of the statements made by MC, TC, JO, or RC, or from any of the others - TN, AS, or Misty/Tommy's grandmother, FH. I think they would have to have some sort of firm evidence that Haleigh is deceased.

I think LE has a good idea of who killed Haleigh, but they don't have conclusive evidence to support that idea, and not enough to make an arrest and indict. I think if they had evidence on the person who killed Haleigh, they would have made an arrest by now. I think LE is leaning on MC and TC because they hold the keys.

 

[TxLady2]

Regarding the original question: There are only three other choices to rule, besides homicide.
1) Natural death... not probable considering her age.
2) Suicide.. also not probable, 5 y.o.'s rarely decide to kill themselves.
3) Accidental... also not probable, since no one sought medical attention or reported an accident and it would be too late now to claim it was not intentional.
There are sub-categories under Accidental death, but I think with the length of time and the disposal of the body, they have no other choice but to rule it as homicide.
The real question should be, how do they know she's dead? What evidence do they have that proves Haleigh is no longer alive? That will be interesting to find out.
As for motive... they don't have to prove a motive. All they need is the fact that the person(s) hid or disposed of her body to avert suspicion from themselves. That will be enough for a jury to convict.

 

[cj1132]

TxLady - thanks for the info because I've been wondering about that.

If Haleigh's death was accidental and was covered up, does that change it to homicide?

 

[Quiche]

I keep wondering what LE may have found at Shell Harbor that turned this case into a homicide... cinder blocks and rope? Too common-- so I don't think so. Haleigh's necklace? Her shirt? Perhaps, and with forensics they might be able to tell how long they had been located there. But...what would that prove?

I believe it's more likely that enough witness accounts and circumstantial evidence has been amassed to have a clear outline on what happened to Haleigh-- with "several persons of interest."

On that note, there are several witnesses I am very eager to hear from: The AC man, Haleigh's bus driver, and Haleigh's school teacher.

 

[faefrost]

I keep wondering what LE may have found at Shell Harbor that turned this case into a homicide... cinder blocks and rope? Too common-- so I don't think so. Haleigh's necklace? Her shirt? Perhaps, and with forensics they might be able to tell how long they had been located there. But...what would that prove?

I believe it's more likely that enough witness accounts and circumstantial evidence has been amassed to have a clear outline on what happened to Haleigh-- with "several persons of interest."

On that note, there are several witnesses I am very eager to hear from: The AC man, Haleigh's bus driver, and Haleigh's school teacher.

Cinder blocks and rope alone would not be anything. But the specific number of cinderblocks, with the type of rope, that has been described to them by one of the witnesses claiming direct knowlege. That's huge.

Cinderblocks near a dock are nothing. Classic country anchors. But if say, Tommy, told them "we tied her to 2 cinderblocks from location *advertiser censored* using rope from yyy, and tossed her off the dock at an angle to the downstream side". And LE does in fact find 2 cinderblocks and rope at 1 to 1 1/2 times the depth of the water, at an angle off the downstream side of the dock... welll that's coraboration, and thats a crime scene. It's one of those times where the object itself may not be the evidence, the context of the object is.

 

[Dee10]

I keep wondering what LE may have found at Shell Harbor that turned this case into a homicide... cinder blocks and rope? Too common-- so I don't think so. Haleigh's necklace? Her shirt? Perhaps, and with forensics they might be able to tell how long they had been located there. But...what would that prove?

I believe it's more likely that enough witness accounts and circumstantial evidence has been amassed to have a clear outline on what happened to Haleigh-- with "several persons of interest."

On that note, there are several witnesses I am very eager to hear from: The AC man, Haleigh's bus driver, and Haleigh's school teacher.

What if they found a shirt, shorts or blanket with human decomp? Trying to find out if it would be water soluble or not. Anyone know?

 

[Kat]

Regarding the original question: There are only three other choices to rule, besides homicide.
1) Natural death... not probable considering her age.
2) Suicide.. also not probable, 5 y.o.'s rarely decide to kill themselves.
3) Accidental... also not probable, since no one sought medical attention or reported an accident and it would be too late now to claim it was not intentional.
There are sub-categories under Accidental death, but I think with the length of time and the disposal of the body, they have no other choice but to rule it as homicide.
The real question should be, how do they know she's dead? What evidence do they have that proves Haleigh is no longer alive? That will be interesting to find out.
As for motive... they don't have to prove a motive. All they need is the fact that the person(s) hid or disposed of her body to avert suspicion from themselves. That will be enough for a jury to convict.

Excellent well thought out post thank you TXLady!

Homicide also has categories too. (If this was posted upthread please please forgive! I'm on a borrowed laptop and haven't been able to follow every post for the past couple days!)

(For reference for all the crime junkies like I am! )


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/titl0782.htm

Chapter 782 Florida Statute on Homicide.

Just a quick glance tells us that manslaughter and it's variations are listed under Homicide as well.

I think we can comfortably infer that Haleigh was murdered and a charge of Murder will be eventually brought forth against suspect(s). But then again I have to respect the fact that LE chose the word Homicide. They did not chose to use the words Murder investigation. Rather what do they know and not know to have decided to declare this a Homicide investigation instead is what I would really like to know. It isn't just a matter of semantics IMHO. LE carefully chose their word and wording in high profile cases and especially this one. What do you all think? I'm not sure what to think. Just pondering right now.

 

[Wescott]

If Tommy failed do you think LE would have spent the ton of money to search the St. John's River at Shell Harbour ? Don't forget - right in the middle of it LE said this is now a homicide investigation. Perhaps he failed it - reconsidered and came clean on Monday ?

I highlighted Sunday because this is the day Tommy and Misty both called GMa Hollars.

I think the results would have been deception on some questions and no deception on others allowing LE to read between the lines. IMO they had enough "truthfullness" to start the search.

 

[captdj]

I am starting to get the impression that the entire story about the dock and the rope and cinder block and who killed Haleigh and all that is still not the truth. Early on we were told that evidence found at the MH did not support Misty's claims about what happened that night, and the other day Le said they believe an arrest is immanent. So I have a multi part question. What evidence do you believe they have, from the MH and or the dock?,What do you think they have to call this a homicide case? Do you think Misty and Tommy led them on another wild expedition? Who do you beleive the POI are? And do they now or will they ever have enough information to make an arrest and have a conviction?

Evidence - 2 cinder blocks that may not have any relation to this case...
POI- Misty, Tommy, Joe in that order.....
Conviction without a full confession- NO
Unless HaLeigh is found and the location provides evidence pointing to certain individuals...

Expedititon - Well that depends on how Tommy and Misty relayed the story to LE....Example

Tommy saying he FEELS Joe did it.....didnt see him do it but felt he came later after he left and took HaLeigh cause the van was moved yada yada

Then If Misty saying something like a dream she had revealing Tommy and Joe with a rope and blocks....and if she say No way does this feel like it was real... but what if the dream wasnt just a dream.....(who knows if the blocks and rope story hasnt been floating around the family for a while):banghead:

Im not convinced that Tommy or Misty lead LE to the dock area maybe LE lead them there..... the area could possibly be more from the familys lead or Steve Browns lead and it was close to where Joe was staying with Lisa and Hank Sr. until the wreck and the place Misty went home to for several days...

LE at the end of the search didnt sound optimistic about that area being the crime scene.....

Quess we have to wait for the tapes on the calls ...

 

[passionflower]

I really pray that Haleigh was never in the river, that she was buried.
Someday we will find her to know the truth from her little body.

 

[Emeralgem]

I really pray that Haleigh was never in the river, that she was buried.
Someday we will find her to know the truth from her little body.

IMHO.. I didn't get the impression LE thought her body will ever be found reason being LE stated they felt they were going to have to take this to trial on circumstantial evidence...JMO

 

[MeoW333]

There will be justice. Sometimes these things take time, a year, 2 years. Waiting for justice for 2 years, even 10 years to finally get justice is worth waiting for, than getting no justice at all.
Florida LE is on the ball, they have been.
Sometimes things take time, a lot of patience is needed. They will nail them.

 

[Kat]

I wanted to answer specifically to the OP's question.

Does LE have enough evidence to rule this a homicide.

My Answer: Yes they do and they did. IMHO we don't know all the evidence that they have collected over the past 15 months. We only have news reports that speculate as to what might be evidence unfortunately. (If I missed PCSO confirming that the cinder blocks and rope really did come out of the river and they are associated with this case I apologize in advance).

I think the question is what charge under the Homicide statute they are looking at bringing forth and whom/multiple individuals they are going to charge.

JMHO.