2011.02.21 Autopsy; COD & TOD Discussion *Warning: Graphic*

[Mountain_Kat]

The appearence of the floor looking sanded is more than likely due to carpet being there a long time. The backing of a carpet gets worn from years of walking on it, vaccuming, and probably steam cleaned. If you pull up an old carpet you can see what looks to be like sand or saw dust. This rubs on the floor while the carpet is down, therefore it will give the floor a sanded scuffed up look.

Hitting the thanks button just wasn't enough. I've racked my brain for months trying to figure out what would make a floor look like this. I could kiss you, Lera!

 

[Lera213]

Hitting the thanks button just wasn't enough. I've racked my brain for months trying to figure out what would make a floor look like this. I could kiss you, Lera!

yw glad i help

 

[Samiya]

Has it been reported anywhere whether the degree of decomposition can determine the approximate time of death? Is it at all possible that AB could be telling the truth about having seen Zahra alive more recently than when Elisa claims Zahra died?

It usually can't if there are scavengers involved and it also depends of the heat and humidity of the environment that the remains were found in.

It is possible that AB could be telling the truth about seeing Zahra more recently than Sept 25th, simply because it is possible that if the cell phone pings were on Sept 25th, EB may have only been searching for locations to dispose of the remains. She may have actually taken the remains at a later date.

However, if the pings were EB searching for suitable spots and it is found that Zahra was killed later, then that would actually show premeditation.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

It usually can't if there are scavengers involved and it also depends of the heat and humidity of the environment that the remains were found in.

It is possible that AB could be telling the truth about seeing Zahra more recently than Sept 25th, simply because it is possible that if the cell phone pings were on Sept 25th, EB may have only been searching for locations to dispose of the remains. She may have actually taken the remains at a later date.

However, if the pings were EB searching for suitable spots and it is found that Zahra was killed later, then that would actually show premeditation.

I've pondered that myself, Samiya. Mainly because I find it difficult to simply dismiss the furniture store sighting. It's possible the furniture store employees are mistaken about the date, but we're talking about 3 people all being mistaken. Seems unlikely. On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that EB (and/or others) would plan a murder that would result in the scenario I believe happened in Zahra's bedroom. In other words, from looking at the pattern of evidence taken from the bedroom, the ONLY thing I can see is a murder that occurred as a result of rage and impulse. I just can't for the life of me see it any other way. :waitasec:

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Last night I latched on to another question that I just can't seem to let go of. If EB has been telling LE from the start that Zahra died of natural causes, why did she lead them to the mattress? My assumption from the start has been that the mattress was discarded because of blood evidence. And if you look at the evidence from the rest of the room, that assumption makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why EB would claim the death was from natural causes, but lead LE straight to a mattress covered in blood.

That now makes me wonder if the DNA evidence found on the mattress was something other than blood.

 

[Hickory Born]

Last night I latched on to another question that I just can't seem to let go of. If EB has been telling LE from the start that Zahra died of natural causes, why did she lead them to the mattress? My assumption from the start has been that the mattress was discarded because of blood evidence. And if you look at the evidence from the rest of the room, that assumption makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why EB would claim the death was from natural causes, but lead LE straight to a mattress covered in blood.

That now makes me wonder if the DNA evidence found on the mattress was something other than blood.

Your thought made me cringe....I had to get another cup of coffee before responding.

Personally, I think what nailed her is the tissue evidence on the wall.

 

[westsidefox64]

Im not sure this fits this thread,if not im sure Duck will move it to the apropriate spot (TIA)
I wonder if EB killed Zahra for the attention it would get her? Kind of like a little kid who wants attention will be bad. Doesnt matter if the attention is good or bad as long as they get it. This thought has made me think the murder could have been premeditated.She may not have got up that day knowing this was the day she was going to kill her but I think the thought was in her mind for awhile. Leading LE to the dump sites definatley got her attention.As did Zahras death. I dont think she thought it would go global but since it did all the better for an attention getter. I think she is relishing in the notoriety. JMO

 

[Hickory Born]

Im not sure this fits this thread,if not im sure Duck will move it to the apropriate spot (TIA)
I wonder if EB killed Zahra for the attention it would get her? Kind of like a little kid who wants attention will be bad. Doesnt matter if the attention is good or bad as long as they get it. This thought has made me think the murder could have been premeditated.She may not have got up that day knowing this was the day she was going to kill her but I think the thought was in her mind for awhile. Leading LE to the dump sites definatley got her attention.As did Zahras death. I dont think she thought it would go global but since it did all the better for an attention getter. I think she is relishing in the notoriety. JMO

I think you are talking "motive" similar to John Hinckley when he shot Pres. Reagan.

IMO, no EB didn't kill Zahra for attention. She killed Zahra in one of her many rages or drug induced highs.

I do think she is enjoying the attention, but still is angry and jealous that all the others have been on TV, not her. Speaking of tv, I am wondering if the court will allow tv coverage of the trial. Are there any precedences in NC regarding media filming the actual trial?

 

[vjlaw]

If EB was searching out disposal sites on Sept 24, then there would probably be cell pings in that area again when she made the disposal trips. Would she know about the pings of her cell made on Sept 24th to use that date as time Zahra died. I am not sure EB would have to search out sites as she has lived in that area most of her life. Also, AB said he saw Zahra on Thurs. so that would give EB two days for the murder, dismemberment and cleanup before LE became involved. LE believes the time to be Sept 24th.

 

[Flakes]

I am not at all familiar with the locations in this case. Is is possible that EB may have had other reasons, perhaps even regularly, to travel along those roads? ie to visit friends, a short cut across town, a business or shop at that location? Can a local give us more info please?

Also, I think it would be very telling to know (and I'm sure LE knows the answer to this) whether EB stopped at these locations where we know of pings, for any length of time, or if she merely drove through?

Also if the ping in the area was in isolation or if on other occasions she was at that same location. It is said that people have a tendency to return to scenes of a crime. She may have visited there prior, but I wonder if she was also tempted to return there after as well?

Return visits to the ping locations, and durations of visits there may provide us with more TOD scenarios. This information will undoubtedly come out at trial.

 

[Hickory Born]

I am not at all familiar with the locations in this case. Is is possible that EB may have had other reasons, perhaps even regularly, to travel along those roads? ie to visit friends, a short cut across town, a business or shop at that location? Can a local give us more info please?Also, I think it would be very telling to know (and I'm sure LE knows the answer to this) whether EB stopped at these locations where we know of pings, for any length of time, or if she merely drove through?

Also if the ping in the area was in isolation or if on other occasions she was at that same location. It is said that people have a tendency to return to scenes of a crime. She may have visited there prior, but I wonder if she was also tempted to return there after as well?

Return visits to the ping locations, and durations of visits there may provide us with more TOD scenarios. This information will undoubtedly come out at trial.

BBM

Good morning, I am no longer a local, but know the area well, so I will try to answer your question.

First off, the Hickory house is located one building back from a highly developed shopping avenue; grocery stores, hardware stores, eating establishments, specialty shops, thrift stores, gas stations, you name it, it is right there at her fingertips.

The area Zahra's body was found is in another county (more rural) and my educated guess would be at least 20 minutes away. But this area was where Elisa lived most of her life; therefore, she was more familiar with it than Hickory. Remember they only lived in Hickory since July.

Catawba County (Hickory, NC) and Caldwell County (Hudson, Granite Falls, Sawmills, etc.) are divided by the Catawba River/Lake Hickory. EB/AB would have to travel over Hwy 321 or Hwy 127 bridges to reach the location where Zahra's body was disposed. These are the only 2 bridges that connect the area. My guess is she used Hwy 321 which is closer to the disposal areas.

 

[tlcya]

The disposal sites I noted are along probably well travelled (by EB in her lifetime) roads through heavily wooded areas that are very logical means of getting to and from areas where EB grew up and had residences throughout her adult life.

The fact that these areas are in heavily wooded spots and that both dump sites where remains where located are also near smaller, maintenance type roads that offer a place to pull off the road to a spot less likely to attract attention from the occassional car passing by made these good spots for disposal. To aquaint oneself with the lay of the land and the geography of things it may be a good idea to check out the SAR thread devoted to the search for Zahra. There are links to some pretty good maps with pushpins outlining where the home in hickory is, the dumpsites, the previous residences, etc.

 

[vjlaw]

I am not at all familiar with the locations in this case. Is is possible that EB may have had other reasons, perhaps even regularly, to travel along those roads? ie to visit friends, a short cut across town, a business or shop at that location? Can a local give us more info please?

Also, I think it would be very telling to know (and I'm sure LE knows the answer to this) whether EB stopped at these locations where we know of pings, for any length of time, or if she merely drove through?

Also if the ping in the area was in isolation or if on other occasions she was at that same location. It is said that people have a tendency to return to scenes of a crime. She may have visited there prior, but I wonder if she was also tempted to return there after as well?

Return visits to the ping locations, and durations of visits there may provide us with more TOD scenarios. This information will undoubtedly come out at trial.

Iirc, LE in the news conferenced referred to the Sept 24 date. IMO if there were other dates of pings by her cell in those areas, LE would have mentioned other days or not said so specifically Sept 24.

 

[panthera]

Iirc, LE in the news conferenced referred to the Sept 24 date. IMO if there were other dates of pings by her cell in those areas, LE would have mentioned other days or not said so specifically Sept 24.

My thoughts as well. There must be a reason LE has indicated "on or about Sept. 24" which leads me to believe EB did not visit the disposal sites at a later date closer to the time Zahra was reported missing. MOO

 

[Flakes]

Mmmm over time I've posted about the murder and dismemberment of various victims by Dennis Nilsen in the UK, and by Mario Schembri and Bernadette Denny in Australia (victim - Hermann Rockefeller). These cases involved the burning of the victim's remains after dismemberment, presumably in an attempt to eliminate evidence, but when this had failed they were required to resort to additional or alternative means of disposal.

In today's The Age newspaper I noticed another case in this style - Mark Twitchell is on trial in Canada for the murder of Johnny Altinger, who was:

"hit on the head with a heavy copper pipe, stabbed to death and his limbs carved up with heavy-duty saws and blades used by hunters to chop up big game. He first tried to burn the remains, then dumped them in the sewer."
http://www.theage.com.au/world/accused-murderer-acted-out-film-plot-20110319-1c146.html

It appears that burning of dismembered remains is preferred by these murderers (and I assume many others). I wonder if there's a connection in a sadistic or symbolic psychological sense, or if it's simply stupidity, use of what's available on hand, and a lack of understanding of the heat required to successfully turn burn to ashes?

I cannot imagine that forensics would fail to identify any human remains at the Baker house in the area of the fire, etc, or by the woodchipper. Years after Nilsen's murders they were able to identify tiny chips and fragments of bone that had failed to burn, and that had been subsequently smashed to pieces and mixed into the soil. Even through a woodchipper surely there would be fragments of bone?

Are there sewers or septic tanks/gully traps in Hickory? Could any remains have been disposed of in such locations?

I wasn't sure where to post this, as it's probably post-death discussion; please move to a more appropriate location if there is one.

 

[Hickory Born]

Mmmm over time I've posted about the murder and dismemberment of various victims by Dennis Nilsen in the UK, and by Mario Schembri and Bernadette Denny in Australia (victim - Hermann Rockefeller). These cases involved the burning of the victim's remains after dismemberment, presumably in an attempt to eliminate evidence, but when this had failed they were required to resort to additional or alternative means of disposal.

In today's The Age newspaper I noticed another case in this style - Mark Twitchell is on trial in Canada for the murder of Johnny Altinger, who was:


It appears that burning of dismembered remains is preferred by these murderers (and I assume many others). I wonder if there's a connection in a sadistic or symbolic psychological sense, or if it's simply stupidity, use of what's available on hand, and a lack of understanding of the heat required to successfully turn burn to ashes?

I cannot imagine that forensics would fail to identify any human remains at the Baker house in the area of the fire, etc, or by the woodchipper. Years after Nilsen's murders they were able to identify tiny chips and fragments of bone that had failed to burn, and that had been subsequently smashed to pieces and mixed into the soil. Even through a woodchipper surely there would be fragments of bone?

Are there sewers or septic tanks/gully traps in Hickory? Could any remains have been disposed of in such locations?

I wasn't sure where to post this, as it's probably post-death discussion; please move to a more appropriate location if there is one.

I might be able to shed a little light on your thoughts. My family home is located approx 2 miles from the Baker house. Most all houses are on city sewage and do not have septic tanks. I feel for sure access to the underground sewage pipes are through manhole covers in the middle of the street. It would have looked stange for AB to have been in the middle of the street pulling up a manhole cover. The house on 21st Avenue is one house back from a very busy commercial street and has traffic on it all hours of theday and night. I dont think he would have used the manhole cover at that location.

I am unaware of the Caldwell County sewage disposal, but didn't someone in the trailer park mention LE looked in the sewage pipes up there, after they reported an awful odor.

 

[Allusonz]

I have to agree this was done out of pure hatred and malice. I am also willing to bet that there are plenty of cell phone pings in these areas on various dates as it is possible that drug deals were done here. EB knew these areas well compared to a relative newcomer to the states. It is still my belief that the date will change just not sure to when MOO

The missing and most important piece to this puzzle is the skull. With that a definative date would be obtained

 

[Hickory Born]

I have to agree this was done out of pure hatred and malice. I am also willing to bet that there are plenty of cell phone pings in these areas on various dates as it is possible that drug deals were done here. EB knew these areas well compared to a relative newcomer to the states. It is still my belief that the date will change just not sure to when MOO

The missing and most important piece to this puzzle is the skull. With that a definative date would be obtained

I am curious, how do they tell the date of death from a skull versus a bone in the body?

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

With apologies, I've been out for a bit (DH had an accident, and has been recovering!), so still trying to catch up. Forgive me if I'm posting redundantly, but...
Can anyone (as much as I hate to suggest it) confirm or deny whether or not the garbage disposal theory is still plausible??? It makes horrid sense to me, in the context of the kitchen sink, etc., being taken by LO officers...

 

[tlcya]

I do not believe the garbage disposal played a role. I believe the plumbing was taken because the sinks were used in the cleanup efforts and thus evidence of blood and tissue were found in the plumbing. To my knowledge, we do not even have confirmation that a garbage disposal existed in any of the home's sink and if one did, it would not be powerful enough to successfully be used in the dismemberment efforts.