4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

[U.N. Known]

It makes no sense for all 4 of these college students to have an AmX credit card bc AmX charges an annual fee. None of them were making over minimum wages (+tips), were they?

These are the banks located in Moscow:
Banks in Moscow, ID

View attachment 408412
Click on image to enlarge

Amex and really any of the banks listed could be for store credit cards. Macy's non-store credit card used to be through Amex, so no annual fee.

 

[U.N. Known]

ikr?! what the heck? Why would they need all the info about Door Dash? Did BK ever pose as a Door Dash guy or something and deliver food not ordered or was DD how he found them? This doesn't make sense.

the confidential source was in quite a few, too.

it's possible that the confidential source is the driver (drivers). We know the driver who delivered the night of the murders spoke with LE and his/her name was not released. It would definitely open that person to hounding from the press and social media if known.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I filled in a ton of info that was missing in my initial list but I'm unable to edit my OG post or the one I made in the media thread. Can't delete them and start over either. Here's the updated list before I turn in for the night:

2/28/23 Releases:
Kaylee: Reddit
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Redditcom.pdf
Knife Sales Search: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Amazon.pdf
All 4 Victims’ AMEX: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - American Express.pdf
Ethan Apple: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Apple.pdf
Kaylee Apple: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Apple 1.pdf
Maddie Apple: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Apple 2.pdf
Xana Apple: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Apple 3.pdf
AT&T GPS (for who?): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - ATT.pdf
All 4 Victims’ BOA Records: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Bank of America.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Banner Bank Records: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Banner Bank.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Block, Inc. Records: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Block.pdf
Blue Ridge Knives Sale Search: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Blue Ridge Knives.pdf
Charter Communications Request for Info (victims’ home wifi?) https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Charter Communications.pdf
Coeur d’ Alene Police Forensic Lab: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - Coeur dAlene Police Department Forensic Lab.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Discover Bank Records: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Discover Bank.pdf
DropBox: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Dropbox.pdf
ebay Knife Sales Search:
- https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Ebay.pdf
- https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Ebay%201.pdf
Kaylee Elan Financial Services: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Elan Financial Services.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Idaho Credit Union Records: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Idaho Central Credit Union.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Financial Records ID Dept of Labor: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Idaho Department of Labor.pdf
All 4 Victims’ Financial Records Numerica Credit Union: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Numerica Credit Union.pdf
-(11.27.22 pg 2) 5 redacted names
All 4 Victims’ Financial Records Potlach Credit Union: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Potlatch No 1 Financial Credit Untion P1FCU.pdf
Wells Fargo: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - Umpqua Bank.pdf
- 3 redacted names
AT&T Records (?): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - ATT.pdf
Cell Tower GPS records - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - ATT.pdf

3/7/23 Releases:
Verizon Wireless: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal - Verizon Wireless.pdf
WSU Registrar: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal - Washington State University.pdf
DoorDash Delivery to Victims’ Home: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - DoorDash Inc.pdf
Extreme Networks Decryption of Kaylee’s Laptop: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Extreme Networks.pdf
Google Accounts:
BK - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Google.pdf
Kaylee - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Google%201.pdf
Inland Cellular (Moscow, ID) Tower Data Dump: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Inland Cellular.pdf
KA-BAR Sales Search: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - KA-BAR Knives Inc.pdf
Match, LLC (Match.com & Tinder):
- BK Tinder Account: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC.pdf
- Tinder Redacted?: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC 2.pdf
- Tinder Redacted?: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC 4.pdf
- Kaylee TinderAccount: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC 1.pdf
- Maddie Tinder Account: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC 3.pdf
META:
-Girls’ and Ethan IG Accounts: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Meta Platforms Inc.pdf
-Facebook Accounts of:
-Maddie - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Meta Platforms Inc 1.pdf
-Ethan - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Meta Platforms Inc 2.pdf
-Xana - https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22 2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Meta%20Platforms%20Inc%204.pdf
-Xana IG Account: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Meta Platforms Inc 4.pdf
-Kaylee Facebook & Instagram: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Meta Platforms Inc 5.pdf
BK Phone Data MPD: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Moscow Police Department Forensic Lab.pdf
PayPal/Venmo Financial Records for 4 Victims & 3 Others: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - PaypalVenmo.pdf
Kaylee & “-4818” Reddit Account(s): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Redditcom.pdf
Snapchat:
- Maddie: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Snap%20Inc%20Snapchat.pdf
- X, K & E plus 3 Redacted Names: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Snap%20Inc%20Snapchat%201.pdf
T-Mobile Redacted Name (but asking for records from 8/1/22 to present!): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - T-Mobile.pdf
T-Mobile GPS Records (BK? Asking for 11/13/22 between 3 and 5: a.m.) https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - T-Mobile 1.pdf
Umpqua Bank Security Cameras (Moscow, ID): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Umpqua Bank.pdf
UPS Delivery Truck Video (Pullman, WA): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - United Parcel Service UPS.pdf
Verizon Wireless Records (but asking for records from 8/1/22 to present!): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Verizon Wireless.pdf
Verizon Wireless GPS Records (BK? Asking for 11/13/22 between 3 and 5: a.m.): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Verizon Wireless 1.pdf
Walmart KA-BAR Sales Search: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Wal-Mart Stores Inc.pdf
Kaylee’s Yahoo Email Address (asking for 8/1/22 to 11/13/22!): https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Yahoo.pdf
Yik Yak App of BK: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Yik Yak Inc.pdf

3/8/23
Google Services(?):
- https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20-%20Google.pdf
- https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20-%20Google%201.pdf

You're a treasure. Thank you!

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

No one set BK up.

No one framed him.

No one helped him.

There was only him, no one else.

He acted alone.

It is him.

He did this.

He can no longer live amongst us.

It really isn't so complicated.

I think dad smokes cigars and the DNA was collected from the butts in the trash.

Your opinion, not a fact.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

ikr?! what the heck? Why would they need all the info about Door Dash? Did BK ever pose as a Door Dash guy or something and deliver food not ordered or was DD how he found them? This doesn't make sense.

the confidential source was in quite a few, too.

I wonder if DD drivers made frequent deliveries to the victims and maybe saw BK in the weeks/months prior outside the home. They could be trying to verify the statements from the drivers? MOO.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I had never heard of Yik Yak until yesterday. Is this news to anyone else? Lol.

 

[Sundog]

The Door Dash was also for a time period, not a single delivery:

all information in your possession or control related to sales, deliveries, purchases, and/or transactions made to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho 83 843 for time period ofJanuary 1, 2022 to present, to include:

date and time of sales; date and time of deliveries; purchases and/or transactions; name and identification of the driver; full description ofthe vehicles used; any and all communications between drivers and the purchasers

I also notice that some for ATT include that confidential source statement?

MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

edit spelling

It would seem that LE have to rule out the Door Dash driver who was also at the King Road house close to the time of the murders, otherwise the defense would use it to their advantage. Was the driver that night familiar with the house and the person who ordered it, etc.? Had he been there before? Had he ever entered the house? Etc. Important to get all the ducks in a row. If he is a witness for the prosecution, then he will be cross examined by the defense as well and the prosecution needs all this information in advance to prepare. Even if he is not a witness for the prosecution, the defense may call on him to testify.

 

[Sundog]

Thanks for your thoughts. The Door Dash warrant is a litlle confusing to me owing to the reference by the court to the 'intimate' phrase in the retraction and sealing order of Febrauary this year. However beside that I don't see that Door Dash had an issue with the warrant. It was served on 6 December and the requested information was supplied by the company the next day as per the unsealed parts of the Return Warrant. As per unredacted sections of the warrant, the information Door Dash supplied included personal details regarding drivers and details of their cars for the time period you mention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
Just for this warrant, the only thing that mystifes me is the Feb phrasing of the order.

Perhaps the Court uses the 'intimate" phrasing in its most recent order because of the personal driver and vehicle details supplied. That still seems a little odd so bottom line atm is IDK and can only guess. Perhaps that phrase relates to the original affadavit for the search warrant in some way. That affdavit and the details of subsequent information provided remain under seal it seems. All just MOO and I don't feel there is really any way to find out more at the moment about why the intimate wording was used in the FEb order for this warrant. MOO

EBM: post restructure for clarity.

Interesting, maybe LE wanted Door Dash to provide them with all makes of cars of drivers to rule out a white Hyundai Elantra making deliveries in the area that night/morning and any history of a white DD Elantra driving in that area in the recent past before the murders.

 

[jepop]

Interesting, maybe LE wanted Door Dash to provide them with all makes of cars of drivers to rule out a white Hyundai Elantra making deliveries in the area that night/morning and any history of a white DD Elantra driving in that area in the recent past before the murders.

Yeah, it's an interesting one all right. Given the warrant is from Jan 2022 to present I started to think it might be a combination of a few things; maybe 1) following up a possible tip/angle of investigation - so yeah ruling out SODDI with that SOD being the/a door dash driver who may have been delivering to the residence over a fairly long term period. This would also coincide with investigating the "house may have been targetted angle"?; 2) as you say, showing that the car/cars driven by DD driver/s do not and have not (since Jan 2022) match/ed the suspect vehicle, aka due diligence re the elantra; 3) not so sure about this but maybe LE was also seeking any info/sightings DD drivers had re white elantras in the area, maybe parked late at night on earlier occasions during other late night deliveries; oh and 4) perhaps a DD driver had something to say as a confidential source in the sealed affadavit for this warrant that actually helped LE apply for the warrant. MOO, just some ideas.

 

[Sundog]

Idaho murders: Kohberger court filings show where warrants were served, including Tinder, DoorDash, Reddit

Warrants in the Idaho quadruple murder case remain sealed, but where they were served - including Tinder, DoorDash, Reddit, Google, among others - were included in the court filings

www.foxnews.com

 

[Helechawagirl]

Thanks for your thoughts. The Door Dash warrant is a litlle confusing to me owing to the reference by the court to the 'intimate' phrase in the retraction and sealing order of Febrauary this year. However beside that I don't see that Door Dash had an issue with the warrant. It was served on 6 December and the requested information was supplied by the company the next day as per the unsealed parts of the Return Warrant. As per unredacted sections of the warrant, the information Door Dash supplied included personal details regarding drivers and details of their cars for the time period you mention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
Just for this warrant, the only thing that mystifes me is the Feb phrasing of the order.

Perhaps the Court uses the 'intimate" phrasing in its most recent order because of the personal driver and vehicle details supplied. That still seems a little odd so bottom line atm is IDK and can only guess. Perhaps that phrase relates to the original affadavit for the search warrant in some way. That affdavit and the details of subsequent information provided remain under seal it seems. All just MOO and I don't feel there is really any way to find out more at the moment about why the intimate wording was used in the FEb order for this warrant. MOO

EBM: post restructure for clarity.

In over my head here, but could the intimate details be the name of the DoorDash driver(s)? And did the driver see something? Perhaps see the white Elantra? Just a thought. 10 months seems unusual to me and very specific.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thank you! for the example, that helped a lot.
How can door dash be highly intimate or highly objectionable? Doesn't make sense.

MOO

10 months of records doesn't make sense either imo. that's a seizure of personal, business, financial info. What about DD would require that kind of scope? If I were a DD employee, my records being seized and I'd potentially be questioned by the police, I would want to know what LE had to support that invasion of privacy. I have some theories, but they are just that, and I don't want to violate the ToS. I will say that IMO it's important to keep the parameters of search and seizure in mind; those must be based on information. it's also important to look at all the pieces and ask how some of this can possibly fit together. jmo imo.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

i see a few posts questioning why they would want doordash info whatsoever - xana was confirmed to have ordered some food from doordash within an hour (?) or so of her death. you could see containers on the counter from photos taken that were looking into the kitchen post-massacre. the warrant is likely for the CC information and to see past orders to check for any connections to anyone who could have committed such a thing.

hope that helps anyone who was confused as to why DD is involved at all

That makes sense. of course, but warrants are specific, and overly broad doesn't work. So one night - of course, that makes sense, person/place/item/nexus. Even around that time period, but from January to the murders is a very broad scope, and there's nothing that w know of that says DD had potential involvement for 10 months. Search and seizure rules and laws are very complicated, and the 4th amendment of the constitution is the floor in terms of rights. 10 months does not make sense imo ime.

There's so much information available online, but I'll just use WIKI as a starting source:

Search warrant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

it's possible that the confidential source is the driver (drivers). We know the driver who delivered the night of the murders spoke with LE and his/her name was not released. It would definitely open that person to hounding from the press and social media if known.

Makes total sense and I'd agree. I think you're right that this is the reason. this same reason is why 10 months of information is overly broad and AFAIK there would be nothing to support the investigation of all those records for random drivers who could potentially receive hounding from the press and social media if known. I'm also fond of constitutional rights, so my first thought is to wonder what in the world they have to support a 10-month seizure of records. jmo imo ime

 

[10ofRods]

..

 

[10ofRods]

Even though I find myself wanting murderers and child rapists put to death, I think it bears noting that the DP probably is not a deterrent.

I have to question whether someone intent on murder is in a rational state of mind, whereby they can logically weigh the benefits and risks of committing the crime. When you take a killer like BK (assuming he's found guilty), I doubt he thought he'd get caught so a DP likely wouldn't even be a consideration to him.

I think the DP--and all punitive measures--are most effective on the types of people who will never commit the crimes anyway.

JMOO

BK himself believed in something called Rational Choice Theory, according to one of his teachers. That's the theory that some (or many) crimes are committed in a rational frame of mind.

//Kohberger had been interested in areas like psychology and Rational Choice Theory, which suggests that offenders may often try to assess the potential costs and benefits of committing a crime. “He took the field of study very seriously,” Mr. Roberts said. But peers also said he at times caused conflict in the program.//

Main article is NYT, behind a pay wall if you've exhausted your monthly views.

He may of course not see the DP as an extreme cost, depending on how he views his own life.

IMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I wonder if DD drivers made frequent deliveries to the victims and maybe saw BK in the weeks/months prior outside the home. They could be trying to verify the statements from the drivers? MOO.

Yes. but that's not enough. They questioned many in the neighborhood, but didn't get a warrant. A
warrant is a search and seizure, and so rules would apply. Here's an example of what some feel is an over broad warrant in this case as an example:

30 news groups ask Idaho Supreme Court to reject gag order

The coalition of news organizations contends the gag order violates the right to free speech by prohibiting it from happening in the first place.

www.ktvb.com

I'm not saying that there's not legit reason to question DD drivers. I am saying that without reason, a warrant requesting all of that detail for all of that time for all of those drivers appears to fall into the overly broad category. imo jmo ime. Google and other tech have fought warrants on the same premise - requesting data for all gogglers in a geographic area is overly broad. it's the same reason that you can't just grab everything in a room or search all parts of the house and land if you don't have reason to do so. so 11 months, my question is what about DD makes that reasonable? idk the answer, but I know there's a question. jmo imo ime.

also, I'll add this: if I'm DD or a judge, I'd really double down and want to know why esp since the DD driver on the night of the murder was cleared and there appears to be no DD connection to the murders other than the appearance of that one driver. AND this was after LE had IDd BK, so really... Warrants aren't for fun or just to clear questions. Thank goodness for all of us on that.

 

[10ofRods]

Makes total sense and I'd agree. I think you're right that this is the reason. this same reason is why 10 months of information is overly broad and AFAIK there would be nothing to support the investigation of all those records for random drivers who could potentially receive hounding from the press and social media if known. I'm also fond of constitutional rights, so my first thought is to wonder what in the world they have to support a 10-month seizure of records. jmo imo ime

Perhaps there was video of a car similar to the one driven by one or more DoorDash drivers, so they thought it prudent to rule all of them out by showing they were there to deliver orders.

I'm pretty sure that many businesses would release that information without a warrant, they were just covering all the bases. In case the defense poses the question, "Well, why is this car or that one also cruising through the area frequently?" LE can say, well, these cars are all DoorDash.

And, they may want to correlate the delivery days/times with the known times BK was in the neighborhood, contact the drivers, and see if they saw anything strange (such as someone breaking into that car at the next door neighbors house - which could have been BK).

And so on.

IMO

 

[Sundog]

LE has to rule out DD drivers who frequented the King Road house and may have become familiar with the victims and/or the residence, especially if there were deliveries in the early morning hours.

It's possible the "overly broad" search warrant is tempered by the single King Road destination, and that LE is not interested in deliveries made to other locations. Was there a pattern? Did certain drivers frequent that house over a 10 month period? With a certain vehicle? And is there video of a certain vehicle being in that area when deliveries were not being made, at similar times?

I think LE has to fill in all the blanks. And if they only want info on deliveries to the King Road house, then that narrows down the information they are requesting with the search warrant.

MO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

LE has to rule out DD drivers who frequented the King Road house and may have become familiar with the victims and/or the residence, especially if there were deliveries in the early morning hours.

It's possible the "overly broad" search warrant is tempered by the single King Road destination, and that LE is not interested in deliveries made to other locations. Was there a pattern? Did certain drivers frequent that house over a 10 month period? With a certain vehicle? And is there video of a certain vehicle being in that area when deliveries were not being made, at similar times?

I think LE has to fill in all the blanks. And if they only want info on deliveries to the King Road house, then that narrows down the information they are requesting with the search warrant.

MO.

I'd like to agree, but if that's the case, why not a warrant for all white Elantras in town or in a reasonable area? or dna for all males in town who are 5-10 to 6-2 and have bushy eyebrows? or all people who knew the four and came to their parties? Just to fill in all the blanks is not a valid reason for a warrant. Warrants are not guesses, and should not be general rolls of the dice, and there is a requirement to tie the all the pieces to the warrant. 11 months is a lot of tying. I think that it's important to consider what a warrant really requires, but that's just imo ime. there's lots of case law out there to consider that would address this, but 11 months with nothing more than 'being sure' doesn't fit imo.