4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

[jepop]

I appreciate the visual of the killer not levitating from room to room! That is actually, precisely why it's stuck in my brain that the print isn't from that night. Of course, I have no evidence of that other than logic: only one, latent print (w/no visible blood, where did the print originate?), near a survivor's, not a victim's, room. That doesn't seem logical to me.

As for the information in the PCA, if they found more than one print, what reason would they have to omit that they found multiple prints going away from two of the victims toward DM's room? If they didn't feel the need to mention other prints, why mention that latent one?

@U.N. Known, there is half a thread that discusses this. IDK, but you could try a search. I read somewhere on here recently that it's possible to search topics by thread but not sure how it is done. MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I appreciate the visual of the killer not levitating from room to room! That is actually, precisely why it's stuck in my brain that the print isn't from that night. Of course, I have no evidence of that other than logic: only one, latent print (w/no visible blood, where did the print originate?), near a survivor's, not a victim's, room. That doesn't seem logical to me.

As for the information in the PCA, if they found more than one print, what reason would they have to omit that they found multiple prints going away from two of the victims toward DM's room? If they didn't feel the need to mention other prints, why mention that latent one?

Because they don't have to put everything in a PCA, just enough to get the warrant.

That print is important because it supports DM's statement, and is supported by it. Plus it being in blood and having a clear tread pattern is good, too. That shows he was coming from a source of blood, and it gives them a shoe to look for when his person, home, and belongings are searched.

When we get to the trial, sure, we're going to probably get diagrams and photographs of crime scenes showing directionality, showing flow, showing how he moved from one victim to another. That doesn't need to be in the PCA. That's the kind of stuff a jury needs to understand the crime in its totality.

A PCA is just to show a judge that they have evidence that is strong, that is pointing to a suspect, and that they know what they need to be on the lookout for when they search. So, a knife of a certain style. A shoe with a certain tread pattern.

A legal bod will be able to lay it out for more accurately than me, but a PCA isn't about hitting every beat and piece of evidence, it's about showing a judge that they actually have cause to go after a certain person, search their home and property, take their possessions and DNA. It isn't enough to say, we'll find all that later, we just don't like the look of him.

MOO

 

[U.N. Known]

They never said they only found one print.

In my opinion, they put the print they did into the PCA because it a) was in blood (it was first located with a positive presumptive test for blood, so most likely is in blood), b) was clear enough when stained with Amido black to show the tread pattern, and c) supported and was supported by the statement of a surviving housemate who witnessed a stranger in the home at the time of the killings.

The print in the PCA was metres from the last source of blood - Xana's room. It follows that there would be footprints in blood across that whole floor, to the point where that specific print was recovered. Not all prints he left would be detailed and crisp - many will be almost invisible to the naked eye, some will be partial, some will be smeared, but they will be there, because he didn't levitate from Xana's room to D's doorway, land briefly, then levitate out of the home. He didn't hop on a clean shoe and then briefly put the bloody shoe to the floor outside D's doorway. He walked. And we know he walked, because D saw him walk right past her.

The PCA isn't an encyclopaedic record of everything they found. It's a teaser, with just the information they needed to provide probable cause for arrest.

MOO

I appreciate the visual of the killer not levitating from room to room! That is actually, precisely why it's stuck in my brain that the print isn't from that night. Of course, I have no evidence of that other than logic: only one, latent print (w/no visible blood, where did the print originate?), near a survivor's, not a victim's, room. That doesn't seem logical to me.

As for the information in the PCA, if they found more than one print, what reason would they have to omit that they found multiple prints going away from two of the victims toward DM's room? If they didn't feel the need to mention other prints, why mention that latent one?

Truth, but as I know you know, lying/misleading on a PCA is a really bad idea imo jmo and piles of case law.

Yep. There have been a national case or two with dire consequences to LE and others from doing just that. Bad business.

 

[whiterhino]

@U.N. Known, there is half a thread that discusses this. IDK, but you could try a search. I read somewhere on here recently that it's possible to search topics by thread but not sure how it is done. MOO

Top right corner click on "search", enter terms into search bar and to the right, click "everywhere". The menu drops down and choose your fighter!

 

[Gemmie]

@U.N. Known, there is half a thread that discusses this. IDK, but you could try a search. I read somewhere on here recently that it's possible to search topics by thread but not sure how it is done. MOO

You click on the Search button (upper right) and select "This thread" (as opposed to the default of Everywhere).

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yep. There have been a national case or two with dire consequences to LE and others from doing just that. Bad business.

I think Anne Taylor would be a little testy about it, esp since she already had a case overturned b/c of a member of LE lying in court. edited to clarify who was lying.

 

[jepop]

Top right corner click on "search", enter terms into search bar and to the right, click "everywhere". The menu drops down and choose your fighter!

Thank you so much! The threads are moving fast again but also recycling as often happens IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Men with BK's eyebrow configuration (it's mostly the silhouette of his actual bone structure that's being noticed - with slightly bushier than average eyebrows) constitute about 10-12% of the European-descended North American population. IMO, based on studying variations in skull bones. Still too many to look at, of course. They may have had a footprint - still not going to narrow it down much. It's a so-called

White Elantra was sought in various ways - the public was asked to call in cars of a certain model year, but long before that, the WSU PD had already contacted Pullman police, because they looked at BK's records and knew he was a criminal justice student. Frankly, I think most LE have a kind of instinctive "let's pay attention" when a person is of about the right age to commit such crimes (based on FBI profiling), is driving a car nearly identical to what they thought they saw in grainy videos, LEO officers know to pay attention to similar looking cars - but MPD didn't want BK to know at that point (and were probably had very good reasons).

In short, many things outside the written words could have been spoken about; more might have been known - but the Judge knows that the PCA must conform to the minimum legal requirement, because the defense has the right to hear all the evidence prior to the Prelim - it doesn't belong in the PCA. The public has no right to the information until the Prelim. And even then, the Court will modulate what becomes known. There will be phone and in chambers discussions to discuss the rules of evidence. As they exist in Idaho.

rsbm

how easy would it be to hit the liver first time, four times, if you've never done it before and under some degree of pressure/stress? I know it requires speculation, but yours is based on experience, and mine is based on nothing, so your answer would be much better

The whole point is that the liver is large and even I could hit it with one slash. Practicing a martial art would of course help.

At any rate, I do not believe he had to slash more than one time. Any decent knife user, with a stationary target, could get it done in two (liver and lungs first slash; other lung second slash) Again, this is how people are taught to use knives as offensive weapons in militaries all over the world.

it's not rocket science. The whole Psycho Slasher making multiple stabs (when in this case, the coroner even said "not stabs, slashes" is not the way every knife killing is done.

If a person doesn't want blood all over themselves and their clothes and their car, they do not make stabbing motions; they do go for "gouge" wounds - maybe as few as one per victim. We may not know until trial. These are just my views.

It took me about 10 minutes to look up how to use a Ka-Bar style knife in this manner and to find multiple training videos.

So my point is that he didn't run around for 20 minutes wildly slashing. He didn't wildly stab at all. He had a plan, and it involved rapid, silent death for the victims (a style that also included less energy expenditure so that he could have killed more).

Simply my opinion. When all the autopsy results are known, I may have to eat my words.

IMO.

 

[katydid23]

rsbm

Do we know for sure that there were no wounds to his hands? I don't recall that.

imo jmo, there are cut-proof gloves, so I find other circumstances surrounding this more problematic, but IDK b/c it's jmo only. I don't even carve meat.

I thought there were some possible scabs or wounds on his wrists in the 'traffic stop' videos. IIRC

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I thought there were some possible scabs or wounds on his wrists in the 'traffic stop' videos. IIRC

that's a big leap from 11.13 to a month later, so IMO that wouldn't be sufficient to easily link to the crime unless they have his blood at the scene, but I don't recall reading anything that said he didn't have any cuts. imo did he? / didn't he? could go either way. I can see how the killer could've geared up to minimize the chances, but IDK. I can't seem to get through a day without doing something to damage myself -- and that's just stupid stuff from not paying attention or doing too many things at once. jmo imo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

rsbm

how easy would it be to hit the liver first time, four times, if you've never done it before and under some degree of pressure/stress? I know it requires speculation, but yours is based on experience, and mine is based on nothing, so your answer would be much better

IMO, it would be difficult to target just the liver. The liver sits on the right side of the body, along with the gallbladder, which sits just below it. The liver is below the right lung, but above the stomach and the right kidney. Unless someone not only studies the anatomy, but practices slashing the liver itself, IMO, it would be difficult, especially under pressure and in the middle of a 15-minute mass murder. Out of respect for the victims and any family who might be reading, I don't want to get too graphic. Suffice it to say that if he stabbed, then moved the knife, it's more likely he'd get the liver and he'd likely get all the other organs as well.

 

[10ofRods]

Men with BK's eyebrow configuration (it's mostly the silhouette of his actual bone structure that's being noticed - with slightly bushier than average eyebrows) constitute about 10-12% of the European-descended North American population. IMO, based on studying variations in skull bones. Still too many to look at, of course. They may have had a footprint - still not going to narrow it down much. It's a so-called

White Elantra was sought in various ways - the public was asked to call in cars of a certain model year, but long before that, the WSU PD had already contacted Pullman police, because they looked at BK's records and knew he was a criminal justice student. Frankly, I think most LE have a kind of instinctive "let's pay attention" when a person is of about the right age to commit such crimes (based on FBI profiling), is driving a car nearly identical to what they thought they saw in grainy videos, LEO officers know to pay attention to similar looking cars - but MPD didn't want BK to know at that point (and were probably had very good reasons).

In short, many things outside the written words could have been spoken about; more might have been known - but the Judge knows that the PCA must conform to the minimum legal requirement, because the defense has the right to hear all the evidence prior to the Prelim - it doesn't belong in the PCA. The public has no right to the information until the Prelim. And even then, the Court will modulate what becomes known. There will be phone and in chambers discussions to discuss the rules of evidence. As they exist in Idaho.

rsbm

how easy would it be to hit the liver first time, four times, if you've never done it before and under some degree of pressure/stress? I know it requires speculation, but yours is based on experience, and mine is based on nothing, so your answer would be much better

The whole point is that the liver is large and even I could hit it with one slash. Practicing a martial art would of course help.

At any rate, I do not believe he had to slash more than one time. Any decent knife user, with a stationary target, could get it done in two (liver and lungs first slash; other lung second slash) Again, this is how people are taught to use knives as offensive weapons in militaries all over the world.

it's not rocket science. The whole Psycho Slasher making multiple stabs (when in this case, the coroner even said "not stabs, slashes" is not the way every knife killing is done.

If a person doesn't want blood all over themselves and their clothes and their car, they do not make stabbing motions; they do go for "gouge" wounds - maybe as few as one per victim. We may not know until trial. These are just my views.

It took me about 10 minutes to look up how to use a Ka-Bar style knife in this manner and to find multiple training videos.

So my point is that he didn't run around for 20 minutes wildly slashing. He didn't wildly stab at all. He had a plan, and it involved rapid, silent death for the victims (a style that also included less energy expenditure so that he could have killed more).

Simply my opinion. When all the autopsy results are known, I may have to eat my words.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Just because others have supplied their explanations for the trash behavior as being non-suspicious doesn’t mean that I find it so.

Which is why I said it was my opinion (MOO).

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Your points are quite valid imo jmo, and raise this question for me:

Even though there was evidence left out of the PCA, if the house was covered in his DNA and they had full footprints supporting every bit of the story, why would the prosecution be so willing to delay trial until July (they suggested July; defense said June) and why all the subsequent warrants after? imo if LE really had BK's DNA all over the scene, this would be more obvious. icbw.

Yeah, I've said for a while this case is more complex than it looks and IMO, the delay til this summer (I thought it was June?) was probably a blessing for the prosecution. MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

IMO, it would be difficult to target just the liver. The liver sits on the right side of the body, along with the gallbladder, which sits just below it. The liver is below the right lung, but above the stomach and the right kidney. Unless someone not only studies the anatomy, but practices slashing the liver itself, IMO, it would be difficult, especially under pressure and in the middle of a 15-minute mass murder. Out of respect for the victims and any family who might be reading, I don't want to get too graphic. Suffice it to say that if he stabbed, then moved the knife, it's more likely he'd get the liver and he'd likely get all the other organs as well.

NSFW Speculation in this post - skip if not interesting in wounds and injuries

Boxers do it all the time (punch the liver - on purpose).

Liver shot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As do street fighters and thugs who want to kill the person with their fists. Kicking the liver area is not uncommon in beatings (but surprisingly, not as fatal as one would think - a knife is the lethal choice).

I think you are viewing BK very different than I am. This is a person who had been studying crime and criminals for a few years. This is a person who knew one martial art (kickboxing; sometimes said to have done boxing). This is a person who planned and practiced. And, as I keep saying, if you go google how to kill someone with a knife, there are instructions. Why would people bother to write out how to find and stab the liver if no one ever did it?

My point is that when he entered the house, just as when he entered the classroom, he was pugilistic, amped up but from his own POV, analytic and calculated. Just as in his favorite theory of crime (Rational Choice Theory - not designed for use in criminology, really, but used nonetheless and mentioned by the professor who thought he was brilliant as a theory he liked to use; that and Script Theory - where the criminal carefully scripts out the crime).

You are absolutely right that if he stabbed (hoping to avoid bone), it would be very easy to cause liver and lung damage - with one or two gashes. I'm pretty sure the families have already heard all about this and if not, it's because they know how to restrict media that discusses crime (there are many other places on the web without the rules we have here).

IMO.

No mention of any other organs besides the liver and lungs, so far, which is why I'm going with that theory. Just my own speculation. It's not that hard to learn anatomy (although we have no evidence that DeSales or WSU put any such courses in their Crim Just curriculum - it does come up). Interestingly, in the jail records in my county, insertion of an object (shiv or whatever) into the liver was one of the more common ways to attempt suicide or homicide inside jail - until about 1980,when metal detectors and other measures came into place. So criminals figured it out and even did it to themselves. I know it's hard (and awful) to picture.

I am not saying he is smart, just that he used what he thought as Scripting and Rational Choice to develop a crime plan. He isn't the first to do it.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Agree. The cameras though, everyone hase an ,

MOO not so meticulous as aggressive, efficient and quick.
After all he left a sheath behind.
Just not as smart as he might seem.
His grand ideas of his prowess blinding him to the breadth of details.
But criminals are generally not smart, as the idea that committimg a crime will
Solve their problems is defective from inception.

Yes, he left a sheath behind. But as far as we know, he left nothing else except a partial footprint. IMO, killing 4 people in 15 minutes without leaving your DNA (beyond on a snap to the sheath) is the thing crime novels are made of. So while I agree he made mistakes, as far as crimes go and relative to other crimes, BK wasn't as stupid as he's made out to be. MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I thought there were some possible scabs or wounds on his wrists in the 'traffic stop' videos. IIRC

No confirmation of this. IIRC, some posters said they were there, but no evidence, IMO, and no source to confirm.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah, I've said for a while this case is more complex than it looks and IMO, the delay til this summer (I thought it was June?) was probably a blessing for the prosecution. MOO.

Defense asked for late June, prosecution said July would work better. starts at about a minute in.

 

[U.N. Known]

They never said they only found one print.

In my opinion, they put the print they did into the PCA because it a) was in blood (it was first located with a positive presumptive test for blood, so most likely is in blood), b) was clear enough when stained with Amido black to show the tread pattern, and c) supported and was supported by the statement of a surviving housemate who witnessed a stranger in the home at the time of the killings.

The print in the PCA was metres from the last source of blood - Xana's room. It follows that there would be footprints in blood across that whole floor, to the point where that specific print was recovered. Not all prints he left would be detailed and crisp - many will be almost invisible to the naked eye, some will be partial, some will be smeared, but they will be there, because he didn't levitate from Xana's room to D's doorway, land briefly, then levitate out of the home. He didn't hop on a clean shoe and then briefly put the bloody shoe to the floor outside D's doorway. He walked. And we know he walked, because D saw him walk right past her.

The PCA isn't an encyclopaedic record of everything they found. It's a teaser, with just the information they needed to provide probable cause for arrest.

MOO

I appreciate the visual of the killer not levitating from room to room! That is actually, precisely why it's stuck in my brain that the print isn't from that night. Of course, I have no evidence of that other than logic: only one, latent print (w/no visible blood, where did the print originate?), near a survivor's, not a victim's, room. That doesn't seem logical to me.

As for the information in the PCA, if they found more than one print, what reason would they have to omit that they found multiple prints going away from two of the victims toward DM's room? If they didn't feel the need to mention other prints, why mention that latent one?

Truth, but as I know you know, lying/misleading on a PCA is a really bad idea imo jmo and piles of case law.

Yep. There have been a national case or two with dire consequences to LE and others from doing just that. Bad business.

I think Anne Taylor would be a little testy about it, esp since she already had a case overturned b/c of a member of LE lying in court. edited to clarify who was lying.

Do you have a link or even a name approximate date for that? I'd like to read up on that one.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

NSFW Speculation in this post - skip if not interesting in wounds and injuries

Boxers do it all the time (punch the liver - on purpose).

Liver shot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As do street fighters and thugs who want to kill the person with their fists. Kicking the liver area is not uncommon in beatings (but surprisingly, not as fatal as one would think - a knife is the lethal choice).

I think you are viewing BK very different than I am. This is a person who had been studying crime and criminals for a few years. This is a person who knew one martial art (kickboxing; sometimes said to have done boxing). This is a person who planned and practiced. And, as I keep saying, if you go google how to kill someone with a knife, there are instructions. Why would people bother to write out how to find and stab the liver if no one ever did it?

My point is that when he entered the house, just as when he entered the classroom, he was pugilistic, amped up but from his own POV, analytic and calculated. Just as in his favorite theory of crime (Rational Choice Theory - not designed for use in criminology, really, but used nonetheless and mentioned by the professor who thought he was brilliant as a theory he liked to use; that and Script Theory - where the criminal carefully scripts out the crime).

You are absolutely right that if he stabbed (hoping to avoid bone), it would be very easy to cause liver and lung damage - with one or two gashes. I'm pretty sure the families have already heard all about this and if not, it's because they know how to restrict media that discusses crime (there are many other places on the web without the rules we have here).

IMO.

No mention of any other organs besides the liver and lungs, so far, which is why I'm going with that theory. Just my own speculation. It's not that hard to learn anatomy (although we have no evidence that DeSales or WSU put any such courses in their Crim Just curriculum - it does come up). Interestingly, in the jail records in my county, insertion of an object (shiv or whatever) into the liver was one of the more common ways to attempt suicide or homicide inside jail - until about 1980,when metal detectors and other measures came into place. So criminals figured it out and even did it to themselves. I know it's hard (and awful) to picture.

I am not saying he is smart, just that he used what he thought as Scripting and Rational Choice to develop a crime plan. He isn't the first to do it.

IMO.

I'm not a criminal and I don't tend to watch videos on how to stab or beat someone, but I have seen human bodies open. I've dissected them in anatomy lab, including the liver and the surrounding organs. I've assisted on surgery on these organs in the operating room. I've also assisted in autopsies. Knowing what the liver looks like inside the body, how it sits, its proportion relative to the other nearby organs AND vasculature and the anatomical variance in certain cases/postures, IMO, it would be difficult. YMMV. And you could be right that someone could master this through enough videos. I wouldn't know. But for a lay person to do this, knowing what he's doing, it would be difficult. I stand by that.

If he hit the liver, it was either through pure tragedy or multiple slashes or a stab wound with subsequent slashes internally. IMO.