4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Boxer]

It is incumbent on the Prosecutor, imo, to go for first degree in this case, as there are suggestions it could be. The defense can try to claim that there was no intent, but to make the jury believe them, they will have counter the active arguments put forward by witnesses for the State.

I've seen it theorized here that he might have still been practicing his criminal doings, or that he came with an idea of something other than murder. If the Jury believes that Kohberger did indeed have a knife with him that Sunday, they aren't going to buy that he had zero intent. I don't know enough about ID law to know whether felony burglary would automatically instruct the jury on this point: if there's a felony murder rule (and I think there is, from discussions here early on), then it's first degree murder. I think that's why there's that fifth charge.

State needs to prove that BK came inside the house and then, with or without intent, if they prove he killed four people, it's going to be in the first degree (I think; imo; IANAL).

OTOH, the State may also be able to show further signs of intent. And I believe that's where the big pile of evidence is going to be heading. Juries are persuaded by all manner of things (individually and as a group), so it behooves the State to provide evidence of more than one. Prior encounters with any of the victims; attempts to "stalk" or "get to know" or "interact online" with a victim (even worse if more than one victim), etc. Prior trips to the house (seen at parties). Pretty long list of what they must be investigating.

I imagine widening circles, ripple effect.

IMO

Only the first murder could concievably be second degree or felony murder as in striking out when startled, but as soon as the first fatal blows were landed all that followed became a premeditated choice.

 

[Cool Cats]

Only the first murder could concievably be second degree or felony murder as in striking out when startled, but as soon as the first fatal blows were landed all that followed became a premeditated choice.

The Idaho Supreme Court has repeatedly held that “premeditation does not require any appreciable space of time between the intention to kill and the killing,” according to the Idaho Law Review.

In fact, prosecutors may not even have to prove intent. In Idaho, any murder committed in the perpetration of “rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping” is first-degree murder.

If Kohberger is found guilty of burglary, which he is also charged with, prosecutors may not have to prove he intended to kill in order to convict him of all charges.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Enhanced Driver's License?

snipped for focus @Sister Golden Hair
Enhanced DL = new to me, so I had to find out more.*

If BK got an enhanced DL, any thoughts about why?

To quickly, quietly slither across border into B.C. or Alberta (and at some point back into US) "just in case" the homicides instantly went FUBAR?
From Moscow to border is 180 - 190 miles, 3hr 40min., so a pretty far for routine shopping or advantageous currency exchange rates.

Other reasons people get enhanced DLs? Anyone?
_____________________________________
* Maybe everybody else knows this? Every time on WS, I learn something new.
"Enhanced licenses are issued to US citizens in Washington, Vermont, Michigan, Minnesota, and New York, and establish nationality in addition to driving privileges. An EDL is a WHTI compliant document, acceptable for re-entering the US via land and sea crossings from Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean. A US passport, birth certificate, or another document proving citizenship is required to apply for this type of license...."

Driver's licenses in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, something far more pedestrian lol: Because they were going to be required, and that just got extended after he got a WA state DL.

On Dec. 5, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security pushed back the deadline for Americans to get their Real IDs from May 3, 2023 to May 7, 2025. On May 7, 2025, if you do not have a form of identification that meets the Real ID requirements, federal agencies such as the DHS and TSA may turn you away from entering a federal building or boarding a domestic flight.

Read more at: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article270020902.html#storylink=cpy

ETA: I've never experienced anything close to a quick, quiet crossing into B.C. It's a super mess now I've heard.

 

[Love Never Fails]

As far as the public knows, @Love Never Fails, her cause of death is unknown.

She disappeared after leaving a friend's house shortly before midnight after attending a street festival earlier in the evening last May 2022 in PA when BK was still living there.

BK supposedly has a solid alibi and PA LE has stated emphatically that BK is not a suspect in her disappearance / death, but his parents are testifying at a PA Grand Jury about something.

Her remains were found recently in some woods so many miles away. JMO

There is a thread for her case here: Found Deceased - PA - Dana Kristine Smithers, 45, Stroudsburg, 28 May 2022 *found in 2023

Thank you so much for the information.

 

[U.N. Known]

Well, we know he wasn't "right at the DMV on the 18th." If he had been, he would have gotten his WA plate that day rather than it being mailed to him about 3 weeks later in Dec (as verified in the link above as well as in lots of MSM links I've posted such as this one Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger changed license plate five days after student slayings )

Here is the DMV link stating he would have gotten the plate that day had he gone to the DMV in person rather than handling the matter online and by mail. (The title had to be mailed.) WA State Licensing (DOL) Official Site: Register your vehicle

He also had to get a WA driver's license before registering his car in WA. DL fees in WA are very high. His PA plate was good until the end of Nov (not April. See PCA for verification of Nov expiration.) So it's not so clear that he was choosing to be foolish financially by waiting until Nov.

JMO

His birthday is in November so the Nov. expiration date makes sense. The end of Nov. was his usual registration month. He was actually a little early with the renewals.

 

[10ofRods]

Only the first murder could concievably be second degree or felony murder as in striking out when startled, but as soon as the first fatal blows were landed all that followed became a premeditated choice.

Right (although the part I'm not sure about is whether in ID merely entering the house with the intent to do something like steal is a felony; so the rest of the crimes - the murders - would be first degree under the felony murder rule; In CA killing the three next people would qualify the first one as first degree murder as well - I just don't know ID law or case law).

At any rate, he only needs to be convicted of one killing and the burglary and he gets at least LWOP in ID, as I understand it. So even if 1 second degree and 3 first degree, they can't punish him any more than LWOP - and I do believe many people think a quadruple felony deserves the strongest punishment (the DP is what most people think the strongest punishment is).

Spending all the rest of one's life in prison sounds really bad, to me. But that's what he's facing, no doubt, either way.

 

[TL4S]

When I put my cellphone in airplane mode the GPS still works.

Maybe he kept the phone on for the GPS feature for driving directions and to see his location, and disabled cell service so his location couldn't be tracked by LE in the future.

I think OP have said this, and it would be common knowledge to be able to do this, and operate in "stealth mode", i.e., I can see where I'm going but no one else will know where I was if they go looking in the future. Jmo

That makes sense, and I can see it, but I think BK didn't need his GPS, especially to get around Moscow, since we know he was in the area at least 12 times previously. Although he did go east for a bit before the murders, so maybe he needed directions for wherever he went first? I don't know. I find it odd and suspicious. My personal guess is he did practice runs, of sorts, and knew exactly what he was going to do and where.

 

[Idaho transplant]

Thanks for pointing that out, I edited my post to delete the word "related".

If the information about Kohberger's sister relating his recent use of latex gloves and a discussion around the dinner table about Kohberger's possible involvement, to the point of searching his car for evidence, is true, I wonder if the Grand Jury was questioning the parents about the timeframe between the families concern and Kohberger's arrest. I don't know how many days that would involve but maybe law enforcement wants it on record as to what they observed about him cleaning his car, what he disposed of and where, how long he was gone from home and where did he go, did anyone confront him outright about the murders, etc. I can understand why his parents would not have wanted to voluntarily share that info.

 

[jjleroche]

While on the PCA....it's telling that Payne is careful to say "network is disabled" and the example he cites is "such as putting the phone in airplane mode" instead of something like turning the phone off. I think this is purposeful and bolsters the reports / speculation that BKs phone was still communicating to surrounding devices utilizing Bluetooth and/or Wifi.

Essentially, between the times the phone was not reporting to the network they still have forensic timestamped information identifying his phone in the surrounding area IMO.

I highly doubt whatever digital forensic course(s) he took discussed this fairly new area of network forensics. He likely thought that since he was not communicating with the cellular network he was good. And his phone GPS/Navigation/Maps still worked and was not traceable (which is true IF cellular is off). Hence bringing along his phone.

Not many cases out there citing usage of device to device handshakes as evidence. Which makes sense since BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) is still fairly new technology and mass adoption just hit in the last year or two. Before BLE, Bluetooth polling/pinging/searching was power hungry and typically had to be manually activated.

MOO

Oooh! How very interesting! Kudos to you schooling for spotting Det Payne's interesting phraseology. Thank you also for explaining in layman's terms what this means.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a techie), but could this therefore mean that LE network forensics could show definitively the location of BK, or the Elantra (depending upon whether the phone was on his person, or in the car) at the time of the murders? Further, I'm surmising that the data could also show the exact route which the Elantra took post-murders, along with timestamps and locations showing the amount of time spent stationary, until the phone network was no longer disabled. MOO

In which case, GOSH (for want of a better word...TOS etc) MOO JMO

 

[jjleroche]

Yes, I still have two hard questions in this case:
1) how did he know, as he departed Pullmann, that his target(s) was/were at King road at all and that there was no party going on or similar? Or did he not know? Considering he turned off (or airplane mode'd, not sure) his cell phone that night, but AFAIK, not on the previous nights, it seems like it was "go time". How did he know that?
2) did he know all the cars and how? If he did not know all the cars (like Kaylees new one), then why did this not make him change his plans? Or did he somehow scout who was in the house before he entered?

IMO if the suspect was keeping an eye on SM, he'd have been aware that Kaylee was bringing her new car back to show Maddie, prior to moving to her new job in Texas.

 

[Cool Cats]

IMO if the suspect was keeping an eye on SM, he'd have been aware that Kaylee was bringing her new car back to show Maddie, prior to moving to her new job in Texas.

I don't think anyone that made the glaring mistakes that he made, would be super aware of the vehicles at the scene. I think he only had a precursory knowledge of vehicles.

This defendant took his phone and drove his car to his multiple murder scene. I don't think he was operating on all 4 cylinders. Emotions and mental issues were at play here.

2 cent opinion

 

[al66pine]

Grand Jury & BK's Parents Testimony. In PA? About Evd re ID. Homicides???

If the information about Kohberger's sister relating his recent use of latex gloves and a discussion around the dinner table about Kohberger's possible involvement, to the point of searching his car for evidence, is true, I wonder if the Grand Jury was questioning the parents about the timeframe between the families concern and Kohberger's arrest. I don't know how many days that would involve but maybe law enforcement wants it on record as to what they observed about him cleaning his car, what he disposed of and where, how long he was gone from home and where did he go, did anyone confront him outright about the murders, etc....

snipped for focus. @Idaho transplant
Title pretty much says it. I am puzzled about ^ post, IF it's referring to PA. GJ subpoenaing BK's parents to testify about cleaning his car; disposing of whatever; what fam asked BK re ID. homicides; what BK said in response, etc. Maybe sorting household trash from one kind of bag to another?

IF PA GJ was determining whether charges should be brought against BK for a homicide in its county in PA, then yes, imo those questions may be a proper line of questioning ---in relation to a possible charge of BK for a homicide occurring IN PA.

Car-cleaning & trash shuffling, the (hypothesized) topic of the (hypothesized) GJ questions, are not crimes, AFAIK.
imo
If I am misconstruing your post, my apologies.

Welcoming correction or clarification, esp'ly from our legal professionals.

 

[monkey222]

I don't think anyone that made the glaring mistakes that he made, would be super aware of the vehicles at the scene. I think he only had a precursory knowledge of vehicles.

This defendant took his phone and drove his car to his multiple murder scene. I don't think he was operating on all 4 cylinders. Emotions and mental issues were at play here.

2 cent opinion

Emotions and evilness were at play. My 2 cent opinion.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Car-cleaning & trash shuffling, the (hypothesized) topic of the (hypothesized) GJ questions, are not crimes, AFAIK.
imo
If I am misconstruing your post, my apologies.

Not only are they not crimes, but the PA GJ cannot question BK's family about crimes that did not occur in that county in PA. And if the GJ were questioning the parents about their own roles, then they wouldn't be witnesses, they'd be the potential defendants, and they would not be called to the GJ. There are bunches of links about re all of this, so I'm not going to post them here again, but the thing we know for sure is that if the GJ questioned the parents as witnesses, it was in relation to a crime committed in that county and not by them.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

...Det Payne's interesting phraseology. Thank you also for explaining in layman's terms what this means.

Remembering, of course, that there would be no reason for Det Payne to be coy or hint. The defense was going to have all of the information via discovery, so seems to me that if they knew BK's phone was put on airport mode, they'd just say it. There is no reason they'd want to leave the court to assume what they meant IMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

His birthday is in November so the Nov. expiration date makes sense. The end of Nov. was his usual registration month. He was actually a little early with the renewals.

Washington state does not go by birthday for license plates. I've linked that several times above but for convenience, I'm linking below. It's based on when tabs are originally issued, and it rolls over annually. I linked that above somewhere. The plate renewal date has nothing to do with his birthday.

Chapter 46.16a RCW: REGISTRATION

app.leg.wa.gov

The below copied from: FAQ - Kent Licensing Agency Inc

Do my tabs expire on the last day of the month shown on my license plate?
Most likely no. Some years ago, in order to alleviate the chronic long lines at offices which were occurring on the last few days of the month, the State Law was changed to provide a “day-to-day” licensing system. Most often your tabs expire at midnight one year to the day after the vehicle was first licensed in Washington. You need to check your registration certificate or renewal notice to determine the exact date your vehicle expires.

Can I legally drive on my tabs until the end of the expiration month?
No. Your tabs expire on midnight of the date on the registration, and most law enforcement agencies now have computers in their vehicles to immediately check this date. If you are on public roads after that date, your vehicle registration has expired.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Not only are they not crimes, but the PA GJ cannot question BK's family about crimes that did not occur in that county in PA. And if the GJ were questioning the parents about their own roles, then they wouldn't be witnesses, they'd be the potential defendants, and they would not be called to the GJ. There are bunches of links about re all of this, so I'm not going to post them here again.

These two, below, are crimes, in Pennsylvania. And these two crimes, potentially, were committed in that county, in PA.

What is the statute of aiding and abetting in PA?

According to the Pennsylvania General Assembly 18 Pa. C.S. § 5105, someone who aids and assists a fugitive could be charged with “hindering apprehension or prosecution.” They intend to hinder the apprehension, prosecution, or conviction of someone else.

§ 4910. Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence.

A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, believing that an official proceeding or investigation is pending or about to be instituted, he:

(1) alters, destroys, conceals or removes any record, document or thing with intent to impair its verity or availability in such proceeding or investigation

All IMO MOO IANAL

 

[Balthazar]

Yes, I still have two hard questions in this case:
1) how did he know, as he departed Pullmann, that his target(s) was/were at King road at all and that there was no party going on or similar? Or did he not know? Considering he turned off (or airplane mode'd, not sure) his cell phone that night, but AFAIK, not on the previous nights, it seems like it was "go time". How did he know that?
2) did he know all the cars and how? If he did not know all the cars (like Kaylees new one), then why did this not make him change his plans? Or did he somehow scout who was in the house before he entered?

1. Remember there was a live feed from the food truck. The assailant could have seen both Kaylee and Maddie on that and he would also have known when they left to get their ride back to the house. For all we know, he may also have been tracking one or more of the women's phones and using a spy app to read it. OR it may have been him just knowing their routines. OR There have been allegations he was watching another woman through her security cameras which he installed in her apartment after she discovered her stuff moved around when she wasn't home. If he did that, who knows what he might have done at 1122 King Rd? All he would need is an opportunity when the roommates were not home.
2. The house was a fishbowl at the back. Kaylee's curtains were NOT closed nor was the kitchen and other rooms. I'm sure he could see whose lights went out from the back and a quick look at the front would show the roommates lights were out. It is possible the original intent was to only sexually assault or kill one person and then everything went wrong resulting in the murder of 4 instead. Hard to know. I wonder if he had creepy crawled the house before when it was inhabited but the residents were asleep?

 

[NCWatcher]

These two, below, are crimes, in Pennsylvania. And these two crimes, potentially, were committed in that county, in PA.

What is the statute of aiding and abetting in PA?

According to the Pennsylvania General Assembly 18 Pa. C.S. § 5105, someone who aids and assists a fugitive could be charged with “hindering apprehension or prosecution.” They intend to hinder the apprehension, prosecution, or conviction of someone else.

§ 4910. Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence.

A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, believing that an official proceeding or investigation is pending or about to be instituted, he:

(1) alters, destroys, conceals or removes any record, document or thing with intent to impair its verity or availability in such proceeding or investigation

All IMO MOO IANAL

I don't see really see how those would work but you are right they could be crimes. But I'm not sure welcoming home a son for Christmas is aiding & abetting. Nor am I sure BK was ever a "fugitive." But if he was and it was a & a, the parents would have been targets, not witnesses. So they wouldn't have been called to a GJ.

So far as BK altering evidence, he's charged with 4 homicides in Idaho. It could be a DP trial. Even if it contained evidence, do we care if he tried to clean up his car in PA? Would PA really charge him with that? If not, why have a GJ look at it?

I just don't think the PA GJ is concerned at all with an Idaho crime. But maybe we'll find out.
JMO

 

[U.N. Known]

His birthday is in November so the Nov. expiration date makes sense. The end of Nov. was his usual registration month. He was actually a little early with the renewals.

Washington state does not go by birthday for license plates. I've linked that several times above but for convenience, I'm linking below. It's based on when tabs are originally issued, and it rolls over annually. I linked that above somewhere. The plate renewal date has nothing to do with his birthday.

Chapter 46.16a RCW: REGISTRATION

app.leg.wa.gov

The below copied from: FAQ - Kent Licensing Agency Inc

Do my tabs expire on the last day of the month shown on my license plate?
Most likely no. Some years ago, in order to alleviate the chronic long lines at offices which were occurring on the last few days of the month, the State Law was changed to provide a “day-to-day” licensing system. Most often your tabs expire at midnight one year to the day after the vehicle was first licensed in Washington. You need to check your registration certificate or renewal notice to determine the exact date your vehicle expires.

Can I legally drive on my tabs until the end of the expiration month?
No. Your tabs expire on midnight of the date on the registration, and most law enforcement agencies now have computers in their vehicles to immediately check this date. If you are on public roads after that date, your vehicle registration has expired.

My apologies for making the erroneous assumption that other states operate the way mine does with the vehicle registration expiring in the owner's birth month. Since you mentioned that WA State does not go by birthday, I checked PA (since that is the state where BK's car was registered November 13). As it turns out, Pennsylvania does not go by B-day either. However, considering that BK was born in November and that is when his registration expired, it wasn't an outlandish supposition, though as a rule, I try to avoid assumptions.

I imagine the topic of BK's LP change has been thoroughly canvased..

For anyone else who is curious, here is the info from PA's FAQ page on dmv.gov. or from the Pennsylvania Code and Bulletin