4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

[pittsburghgirl]

It's part of mourning to bury the dead and memorialize them in ways that are life-affirming. By "endanger" I mean a basket of things that could get (and may already be) associated with the house. There are still-attending students who were heavily traumatized by these murders, probably entire sororities and fraternities, and many others. There are real effects on student mental health, IMO, of these murders and no one knows exactly how to mitigate that. Tearing the house down seems a good move for many reasons, IOW.

As you say, a murder house is not a place to mourn and process trauma and grief. Years after the 1966 murder, students argue that there should be a memorial, just as the victims of the 1966 Texas Tower shooting did (there, the U hosed of the sidewalk and held classes the next day). We've come a long way in understanding the traumatic effect of mass murder and other forms of violence, I think largely because we've had too much practice in over 50 years.

 

[Balthazar]

Where was the DNA from these unidentified persons recovered from? Obviously not from the knife sheath like BK's DNA.

Was it from innocuous objects like a drinking glass used at a party?

JMO.

That information has not be released yet so we should not assume anything other than that the samples were within the crime scene and the CSI decided these samples were relevant enough to take the samples. Here is what has been revealed so far:

“By December 17, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located and another unknown male DNA on a glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022,” Mr Kohberger’s attorney Jay Logsdon writes in the filing.

“To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles.

“Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger.”

Bryan Kohberger claims DNA from three other men found at scene of Idaho murders

Mr Kohberger’s attorneys are fighting against the state’s use of genetic genealogy to tie him to the brutal murders of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle

www.the-independent.com

 

[justwannahelp]

A former prosecutor's perspective plus another attorney on capital case appellate process and angles regarding the demolition

The layout of the house is complicated for lack of a better word. If I were a juror i would absolutely feel like it would be necessary for me to go in in order to fully GRASP what happened. Who could have heard what when. What EXACT sounds are we hearing from that ring camera? I would need to wrap my mind around the distances of the rooms, the neighbor’s homes and their locations, the entrances, where he parked, the windows, the stairs, and the layout. I would want to hear what could be heard from upstairs. I would NEED to understand. It’s a WEIRD case.

I can visualize 3D pretty well. I make CADs for interior design, but I STILL can’t tell when looking at some CADs if the distance is as sufficient as I want it to be from say shower to counter or toilet to wall. & I need to go to the site and measure. There are standard acceptable minimum distances, but I have to get in a client’s head, so each job is different. What seems absurdly spacious to me is just right to some, so when I see it on a CAD, it sometimes looks foreign - I’m not sure how it big or small the distance will FEEL or what you can DO in it. If that makes sense. Of course if i measure and process oh ok i can put a yoga mat there blah blah blah. But it’s faster and more efficient and more SURE/ DOUBTPROOF to simply be IN the actual space.
JMO

 

[arielilane]

#BryanKohberger will be back in court for a motion hearing on 1/26/24. Today marks one year since his arrest for the murders of Maddie Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle

https://twitter.com/x/status/1741183565457502451

 

[al66pine]

Jury View? Demo? Any Motion Filed? Jurisdiction?

Some discussion seems to postulate --- if the state or defense files a motion for a jury view, a trial judge could or would (upon showing of sufficient cause) grant it before the trial starts and even before the trial is scheduled. Doubting it but IDK.

And some posts postulating waaay beyond ^ ---that on state’s or defense’s motion, that a trial court could or would (upon showing of sufficient cause) ban the demo of a building, i.e., order property owner to leave it unchanged until a trial concludes or until all appeals & post-conviction relief remedies have been exhausted. More doubtful imo.
From prosecutor’s Dec. 22 email* to UofI and other much earlier stmts, the State’s position on these points seems clear imo.
W a quick search, I did not find any public quote from the defense re its position (yes, I know, non-dissemination order)

IIRC neither the state nor defense actually filed motions on either of those two points, a JV or a demo-ban.
Anyone recall a MOTION being filed by either side?

And now this Q:
If a motion requested trial court ban prop. owner from demo, under what authority could or would a trial court issue such an order to a NON-PARTY property owner? How would ct. have personal jurisdiction over the prop. owner?


______________________________________
*“But Thompson… wrote in a Dec. 22 email to the university that the state-led team anticipates no further use of the home. " “Based on our review of Idaho case law, the current condition of the premises is so substantially different than at the time of the homicides that a ‘jury view’ would not be authorized,”” Thomspon wrote.” sbm

The home where 4 UI students were killed will be demolished this week. Here's why the defense and prosecution are OK with that before Kohberger's trial.

The home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death last November in Moscow is set to be demolished on Thursday, without a walk-through by a jury, because it is “so substantially different” now than at the time of the homicides, according to an email from Latah County...

www.spokesman.com

 

[katydid23]

"
Court documents, filed by attorneys for the 28-year-old PhD student last week, argue that DNA from two other men was also found inside the off-campus student home in Moscow, Idaho.

DNA from a third unknown man was also found on a glove found outside the property on 20 November – one week on from the murders, the documents state.

Why does a glove found on Nov 20th have any significance? That was a full week later and most likely had no connection to the killer. JMO

“By December 17, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located and another unknown male DNA on a glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022,” Mr Kohberger’s attorney Jay Logsdon writes in the filing."

As to the other two DNA samples---I wonder where they were found.

If they were found near the bodies, it would have quite an impact. If they were in the kitchen or the downstairs bathroom, I'd be less interested. JMO

Bryan Kohberger claims DNA from three other men found at scene of Idaho murders

Mr Kohberger’s attorneys are fighting against the state’s use of genetic genealogy to tie him to the brutal murders of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle

www.the-independent.com

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

The layout of the house is complicated for lack of a better word. If I were a juror i would absolutely feel like it would be necessary for me to go in in order to fully GRASP what happened. Who could have heard what when. What EXACT sounds are we hearing from that ring camera? I would need to wrap my mind around the distances of the rooms, the neighbor’s homes and their locations, the entrances, where he parked, the windows, the stairs, and the layout. I would want to hear what could be heard from upstairs. I would NEED to understand. It’s a WEIRD case.

I can visualize 3D pretty well. I make CADs for interior design, but I STILL can’t tell when looking at some CADs if the distance is as sufficient as I want it to be from say shower to counter or toilet to wall. & I need to go to the site and measure. There are standard acceptable minimum distances, but I have to get in a client’s head, so each job is different. What seems absurdly spacious to me is just right to some, so when I see it on a CAD, it sometimes looks foreign - I’m not sure how it big or small the distance will FEEL or what you can DO in it. If that makes sense. Of course if i measure and process oh ok i can put a yoga mat there blah blah blah. But it’s faster and more efficient and more SURE/ DOUBTPROOF to simply be IN the actual space.
JMO

A juror would never be allowed to go into the house and measure anything or test any theories about sound or timing, etc. You'd not be able to test out what could be heard from upstairs, etc. Or test how long to get from here to there, etc.

That's the kind of thing the investigators and their hired experts do, and then they testify and set forth the results of those experiments. JMO

 

[Ksfarmer8]

Those of us that are novices when it comes to murder investigations, forensics, trial motions etc. tend to look at the more obvious aspects of the case. A lot of talk about other DNA evidence on site but the obvious DNA of BK on the knife sheath says volumes. BK has no alibi other than he was in the neighborhood at the time of the murders and that does not appear to be of any help to him. The defense appears to be throwing a lot of mud at the wall hoping for a Hail Mary pass that might stick. I also believe (IMO) the prosecution has tons of evidence that we know nothing about.
This is in no way meant to criticize those that are much more knowledgeable as I hope to learn from their detailed posts and comments.
As to the long time between the offense and the trial I can remember back in the days of the Charlie Starkweather murder spree in NE and WY (11 victims) when Starkweather was executed about a year and a half after his arrest. Things do change.

 

[Cool Cats]

Why does a glove found on Nov 20th have any significance? That was a full week later and most likely had no connection to the killer. JMO


As to the other two DNA samples---I wonder where they were found.

If they were found near the bodies, it would have quite an impact. If they were in the kitchen or the downstairs bathroom, I'd be less interested. JMO

Good catch!

I was thinking the glove was found November 13th not a full week later. LE takes photos everywhere so all they would have to do is look at a photo to see if a glove is there and if not then they know it was dropped there after the 13th.

I am assuming LE was incredibly thorough and went over every inch of the outside property.

2 Cents

 

[Seattle1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1741190618930688114

 

[Cool Cats]

A juror would never be allowed to go into the house and measure anything or test any theories about sound or timing, etc. You'd not be able to test out what could be heard from upstairs, etc. Or test how long to get from here to there, etc.

That's the kind of thing the investigators and their hired experts do, and then they testify and set forth the results of those experiments. JMO

Jurors are not even allowed to talk during a jury view or there could be a mistrial, and in the Kohberger case the crime scenes were greatly altered. The judge makes the decision about jury views and has to consider if the crime scene was altered.

Due to technology jury views are rarely needed, the judge must weigh whether or not evidence in court could accomplish the same end as a jury view and it often can.

Taking the jury to the scene of a crime presents them with just one type of evidence when there are several kinds of evidence that can be presented during the course of a trial.

The Kohberger case has the best technology to visually walk the jury through the 2 crime scenes in the house plus plenty of other evidence for the jury to discuss.

When jurors are allowed to visit crime scenes

Question: I recently read about a case in which a jury was allowed to visit the scene of...

www.theintelligencer.com

 

[Kemug]

It's interesting about the dropped glove outside. Even though the DNA on it isn't BK's, I bet there was a bit of excitement when it was spotted. After all, we have postulated that BK did remove garments before getting back into his car, and it's easy to imagine him dropping a glove. Also it's hard to see how any random person passing by could have just lost a glove. But perhaps a rubber necker removed it to take a photo?

 

[Nila Aella]

Why does a glove found on Nov 20th have any significance? That was a full week later and most likely had no connection to the killer. JMO

Investigators were still processing the scene a week later.

Here is one post on the media thread regarding Nov 20. Investigators were focusing on the backyard.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1594527972043948033

There are more posts on the media thread for this time period in the investigation where it states they were focusing on the outside : page 6.

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Died in Apparent Homicide, Moscow, 13 Nov 2022 ****Media Thread**** NO DISCUSSION

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Died in Apparent Homicide, Moscow, 13 Nov 2022 ****Media Thread**** NO DISCUSSION Discussion Thread 1: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-4-university-of-idaho-students-died-in-apparent-homicide-moscow-13-nov-2022.644006/ —— Rsbm Police said...

www.websleuths.com

JMO
Edit to fix link
Edit again to remove double link LOL

 

[Nila Aella]

Jury View? Demo? Any Motion Filed? Jurisdiction?
______________________________________
*“But Thompson… wrote in a Dec. 22 email to the university that the state-led team anticipates no further use of the home. " “Based on our review of Idaho case law, the current condition of the premises is so substantially different than at the time of the homicides that a ‘jury view’ would not be authorized,”” Thomspon wrote.” sbm

The home where 4 UI students were killed will be demolished this week. Here's why the defense and prosecution are OK with that before Kohberger's trial.

The home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death last November in Moscow is set to be demolished on Thursday, without a walk-through by a jury, because it is “so substantially different” now than at the time of the homicides, according to an email from Latah County...

www.spokesman.com

SBM to focus on Thompsons email statement about the jury view

vs Faro Scan #2:

Genuinely curious
Will the second Faro Scan be admissable?
The FBI Faro scan was done on October 31, 2023 when the condition of the premesis were substantially different than at the time of the homicides. MOO
Just thinking if it is not good enough for an in person view, why would a scan of it be good enough for the jury to see?

JMO

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

 

[Cool Cats]

Those of us that are novices when it comes to murder investigations, forensics, trial motions etc. tend to look at the more obvious aspects of the case. A lot of talk about other DNA evidence on site but the obvious DNA of BK on the knife sheath says volumes. BK has no alibi other than he was in the neighborhood at the time of the murders and that does not appear to be of any help to him. The defense appears to be throwing a lot of mud at the wall hoping for a Hail Mary pass that might stick. I also believe (IMO) the prosecution has tons of evidence that we know nothing about.
This is in no way meant to criticize those that are much more knowledgeable as I hope to learn from their detailed posts and comments.
As to the long time between the offense and the trial I can remember back in the days of the Charlie Starkweather murder spree in NE and WY (11 victims) when Starkweather was executed about a year and a half after his arrest. Things do change.

I also believe (IMO) the prosecution has tons of evidence that we know nothing about.

Yes!
Over 10,000 pages of reports and written materials, 10,200 photographs, 9,200 tips and 51 terabytes of video, audio and digital materials.

My examples of evidence that can be used in a trial - certainly some of these types of evidence will be shown to the Kohberger jury:

Maps, diagrams, photos, witness testimony, expert testimony, lab and forensic reports, ballistic reports, police reports, autopsy reports, letters, school reports, psychiatric reports, recorded interviews, audio recordings, digital footprints, tire tracks, shoe prints, DNA, cheek swab, geneology, sheath, blood, bodily fluids, digital receipts, social media, search history, purchases, cell tower records, GPS, public video cameras, private video cameras, police body cameras, dash cams, trail cams, FBI FARO scans, evidence recovered in multiple searches and exhibits that the jury can pick up and examine.

Here's what evidence prosecutors have provided to the Idaho murder suspect's defense

According to new court filings, the state has handed over 10,200 photographs to the defense through discovery requests.

www.ktvb.com

 

[TL4S]

“Based on our review of Idaho case law, the current condition of the premises is so substantially different than at the time of the homicides that a ‘jury view’ would not be authorized,”” Thomspon wrote.”

RSBM. I guess I don't understudy how BT can make this determination. Would it not be the judge's decision whether or not to authorize?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

As you say, a murder house is not a place to mourn and process trauma and grief. Years after the 1966 murder, students argue that there should be a memorial, just as the victims of the 1966 Texas Tower shooting did (there, the U hosed of the sidewalk and held classes the next day). We've come a long way in understanding the traumatic effect of mass murder and other forms of violence, I think largely because we've had too much practice in over 50 years.

I think we need to be really careful not to presume what's best for total strangers who've experienced what most of us will never experience. Trauma is part of a medical syndrome and no one here can determine what's best or not best for those who've experienced it because, as with anything else in medicine, it's different for everyone.

Returning to the scene of the trauma in PTSD treatment – why, how and when? | the Cognitive Behaviour Therapist | Cambridge Core

Returning to the scene of the trauma in PTSD treatment – why, how and when? - Volume 8

www.cambridge.org

Clients' Experiences of Returning to the Trauma Site during PTSD Treatment: An Exploratory Study - PubMed

Therapist-accompanied site visits may have various useful therapeutic functions and participants experience them positively.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for Treatment of PTSD

Cognitive behavioral therapy focuses on the relationship among thoughts, feelings and behaviors. For example, altering a person’s unhelpful thinking can lead to healthier behaviors and improved emotion regulation.

www.apa.org

 

[schooling]

The layout of the house is complicated for lack of a better word. If I were a juror i would absolutely feel like it would be necessary for me to go in in order to fully GRASP what happened. Who could have heard what when. What EXACT sounds are we hearing from that ring camera? I would need to wrap my mind around the distances of the rooms, the neighbor’s homes and their locations, the entrances, where he parked, the windows, the stairs, and the layout. I would want to hear what could be heard from upstairs. I would NEED to understand. It’s a WEIRD case.

I can visualize 3D pretty well. I make CADs for interior design, but I STILL can’t tell when looking at some CADs if the distance is as sufficient as I want it to be from say shower to counter or toilet to wall. & I need to go to the site and measure. There are standard acceptable minimum distances, but I have to get in a client’s head, so each job is different. What seems absurdly spacious to me is just right to some, so when I see it on a CAD, it sometimes looks foreign - I’m not sure how it big or small the distance will FEEL or what you can DO in it. If that makes sense. Of course if i measure and process oh ok i can put a yoga mat there blah blah blah. But it’s faster and more efficient and more SURE/ DOUBTPROOF to simply be IN the actual space.
JMO

Sounds like BKs team really messed up by not keeping the house up then?

IMO the things that we do know…the DNA (puts him literally at the murder scene), cellular (places him in the vicinity time and time again) and vehicle CCTV (shows him heading towards the crime scene) evidence stands on its own, independent of any of those juror questions.

IMO The fact that the prosecutors (and the FBI considering their last second FARO) likely considered everything that you just said, and still felt like they didn’t need the house, speaks volumes to how strong their case is.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Jury View? Demo? Any Motion Filed? Jurisdiction?

Some discussion seems to postulate --- if the state or defense files a motion for a jury view, a trial judge could or would (upon showing of sufficient cause) grant it before the trial starts and even before the trial is scheduled. Doubting it but IDK.
And some posts postulating waaay beyond ^ ---on state’s or defense’s motion, that a trial court could or would (upon showing of sufficient cause) ban the demo of a building, i.e., order property owner to leave it unchanged until a trial concludes or until all appeals & post-conviction relief remedies have been exhausted. More doubtful imo.
From prosecutor’s Dec. 22 email* to UofI and other much earlier stmts, the State’s position on these points seems clear imo.
IIRC neither the state nor defense actually filed motions on either of those two points, a JV or a demo-ban.
Anyone recall a MOTION being filed by either side?

And now this Q:
If a motion requested trial court ban prop. owner from demo, under what authority could or would a trial court issue such an order to a NON-PARTY property owner? How would ct. have personal jurisdiction over the prop. owner?

*“But Thompson… wrote in a Dec. 22 email to the university that the state-led team anticipates no further use of the home. “Based on our review of Idaho case law, the current condition of the premises is so substantially different than at the time of the homicides that a ‘jury view’ would not be authorized,”” Thomspon wrote.” sbm

The home where 4 UI students were killed will be demolished this week. Here's why the defense and prosecution are OK with that before Kohberger's trial.

The home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death last November in Moscow is set to be demolished on Thursday, without a walk-through by a jury, because it is “so substantially different” now than at the time of the homicides, according to an email from Latah County...

www.spokesman.com

Good questions. It would be extraordinary for a Superior Court trial judge to interfere with the property rights of an owner. Due process would have to occur. And since neither side asked for it, Judge J. didn't have to go down that path (he would have likely ruled against any such request, as he knows he cannot commandeer real property as evidence - it would be a precedent that would go all the way to SCOTUS, IMO).

If every single crime scene had to be preserved through all appeals, then property owners (and victims) would have to spend tons of money to maintain their properties without touching them. I just don't get how people can think this is a good precedent, esp. with modern photography.

If we make crime more and more expensive to prosecute (and punish owners of crime scenes for living in them or owning them), we are creating a system of No Justice.

IMO. It's a strong opinion, but an opinion. It is based on a longterm study of American jurisprudence. Others have posted eloquently on where we seem to be drifting.

JMO.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I think we need to be really careful not to presume what's best for total strangers who've experienced what most of us will never experience. Trauma is part of a medical syndrome and no one here can determine what's best or not best for those who've experienced it because, as with anything else in medicine, it's different for everyone.

Returning to the scene of the trauma in PTSD treatment – why, how and when? | the Cognitive Behaviour Therapist | Cambridge Core

Returning to the scene of the trauma in PTSD treatment – why, how and when? - Volume 8

www.cambridge.org

Clients' Experiences of Returning to the Trauma Site during PTSD Treatment: An Exploratory Study - PubMed

Therapist-accompanied site visits may have various useful therapeutic functions and participants experience them positively.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for Treatment of PTSD

Cognitive behavioral therapy focuses on the relationship among thoughts, feelings and behaviors. For example, altering a person’s unhelpful thinking can lead to healthier behaviors and improved emotion regulation.

www.apa.org

I don't disagree with the idea that "we" can't determine what is "best for total strangers." However, we can look at other public tragedies, such as the Sandy Hook and Uvalde school shootings, where the school buildings were torn down because no one wanted to send kids back to the site of a massacre. My own understanding of what we might call the public side of trauma has come from a lot of reading about the impact of mass shootings on witnesses, survivors, first responders and journalists. As someone diagnosed with PTSD, I'm familiar with the possible benefits of returning to the site as well as how, for some people, returning triggers flashbacks and other symptoms. There is probably no way to meet the needs of all of the extending circles of victims. These differing needs and view explains why there is so much controversy any time a memorial of any kind is built, for example. (I'm old enough to remember the bitter reception the Vietnam War Memorial received in the beginning, which explains the proliferation of statues in the area). And why, in this case, the parents of the victims took different positions on tearing down the house.

It's my opinion only that this particular house, given its condition after the killings and the investigation and difficulties in protecting the site and the neighborhood, falls into the category where demolition provides the best solution. What happens to the land itself may involve a different set of calculations. MOO.