4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

Status
Not open for further replies.
Everyone was asleep except Xana, apparently. No one heard anything. Murphy the Dog may have growled (misinterpreted as playful growling by one of the surviving roommates). There was no chaos.

It was fast, gruesome and silent. No one alerted to anything. People inside the house would not have seen the blood right away (there's some on the outside of the house - and there are latent bloody footprints from someone coming down the stairs - but no mention of pooled blood inside the house. Latent means "invisible."

The bloody footprints belong to a person who appears to be the intruder - a single person's footprints. I think we'd have heard if there were two sets and LE would be looking for that other person. In order to produce bloody footprints, someone had to step in blood, for sure.

There is no such thing as indirect DNA. Every cell in an organism has "direct" DNA. It has only one form and is created in only one set of processes (cellular division). Sweat is not indirect. It's a body fluid. Body fluids like semen and sweat are not indirect. The would make rape kids "indirect," but I've never heard anyone say that. It's likely epithelial DNA, given where it was found. Doesn't matter the type of cell from which it came. DNA is DNA.

It was not even what is sometimes called "trace" DNA (that has an entirely different meaning in forensic science). It is "touch" DNA (an encounter between the body and an object which leaves a DNA trace of that person being very near or touching the object - there is now research on exhaled DNA as well. Epithelial DNA is by far the most common type of forensic DNA that's found.

"Touch" merely refers to the method by which the DNA got where it is. We don't say "touch fingerprints", DNA comes with fingers as well. Even after death, humans are shedding/discarding some DNA. DNA persists for centuries, even millennia, in some cases. DNA can be obtained through indirect methods of analysis - which would be much harder to explain to a jury. There's no evidence that any of these reconstructive methods were used in this case.

I believe BK used tactics that were specifically designed to keep himself from being bloody - the technique I've described (unlike throat slashing) does not produce external blood spurts - but there would have been blood, for sure. He wore a mask, suitable clothing and gloves. He had prepared his car to receive those items, just in case he was stopped (we know of three traffic errors resulting in stops for him - I don't think he's a great driver).

I'm going with "he took precautions and wasn't bloody" when he climbed back into the driver's seat of his car. No victim DNA was found inside his vehicle (that's according to AT though).

He did exactly what all forensic specialists know to do to keep their own DNA out of a crime scene (this is usually learned at the bachelor's level in criminal justice, a doctoral candidate in criminology would know this and should be prepared to explain and TEACH it, criminologists are hired as consultants by LE agencies to review, do and establish such training). It's an area of specialization, however (no grad student would be hired in such a capacity - and they'd need more than grad criminology coursework in the forensic anthropology/genetics to get to that level of expertise). I have tagged along and suited up to make sure my own DNA didn't contaminate a crime scene (they still take samples of all forensic personnel and visitors to crime scenes if there's good local LE practice - you can find videos of the Moscow PD forensic investigators suiting up - including the crime scene photographers). I've been to a body farm and suited up there for the same reason (as the whole point of my field trip was to observe various field DNA collection techniques).

BK did very well, so far as we know, at keeping his DNA off objects - as I hope I did when I did the above things. BK used his training as a criminal justice and budding criminologist to aid in planning this crime - to me, it almost HAS to be someone with extensive knowledge of how to avoid forensic detection. A student of crime plans a crime - this is what it looks like. I also think his VSS plays a role in learning to plan things carefully and adjust for variables that the rest of us might find nerve-wracking.

I would love to see an academic citation or two describing what, exactly "touch DNA" is (other than a popular notion). Here is an article where it is mentioned, but in quotation marks (because it is not proper scientific terminology). Note that the author uses the word "trace" to mean the same thing. That's how it was usually referred to until the press started using other terms. But the press are not DNA experts.


And here is example of how the term is currently used in science (to mean epithelial DNA):


Some view any sample gained with a swab to be "touch" DNA (which makes sense, as shorthand). Note that there's high scientific validity to what scientists are calling touch/epithelial DNA. I am at a loss as to why anyone (including journalists) think that epithelial DNA is problematic. But then, some people thought fingerprints were problematic. The media has decided "touch" DNA is a specific forensic problem - but that's wildly inaccurate.

IMO.
Thanks so much for this excellent explanation!

So many here know so much more about DNA evidence than I do, and I’ve always been puzzled by the references to “touch DNA” as being somehow inferior or problematic.

LE routinely uses buccal swabs to collect epithelial cells for DNA purposes, so the concerns about the epithelial “touch DNA” in the groves of the knife sheath snap that subsequently matched the BK’s directly collected DNA made me feel like I was missing something.

Thanks to your excellent tutorial, I now understand I wasn’t missing anything after all.

ETA: “DNA is DNA.”
 
It's hard to imagine a process where someone who is not BK would obtain his DNA uncontaminated (single source), obtain a specific knife sheath that BK may have purchased and then somehow deposit it into the crevise around the very snap that secures and unsecured the leather flap without adding any of their own DNA, anywhere along the process. Why would anyone do that? Far more contrived than the straight line -- BK's sheath, probably wiped of DNA, except for the crevice. He shed cells when he worked the snap and the leather fold protected his skin cells... until they were swabbed and tested and told on him in a very big way.

JMO
 
Everyone was asleep except Xana, apparently. No one heard anything. Murphy the Dog may have growled (misinterpreted as playful growling by one of the surviving roommates). There was no chaos.

It was fast, gruesome and silent. No one alerted to anything. People inside the house would not have seen the blood right away (there's some on the outside of the house - and there are latent bloody footprints from someone coming down the stairs - but no mention of pooled blood inside the house. Latent means "invisible."

The bloody footprints belong to a person who appears to be the intruder - a single person's footprints. I think we'd have heard if there were two sets and LE would be looking for that other person. In order to produce bloody footprints, someone had to step in blood, for sure.

There is no such thing as indirect DNA. Every cell in an organism has "direct" DNA. It has only one form and is created in only one set of processes (cellular division). Sweat is not indirect. It's a body fluid. Body fluids like semen and sweat are not indirect. The would make rape kids "indirect," but I've never heard anyone say that. It's likely epithelial DNA, given where it was found. Doesn't matter the type of cell from which it came. DNA is DNA.

It was not even what is sometimes called "trace" DNA (that has an entirely different meaning in forensic science). It is "touch" DNA (an encounter between the body and an object which leaves a DNA trace of that person being very near or touching the object - there is now research on exhaled DNA as well. Epithelial DNA is by far the most common type of forensic DNA that's found.

"Touch" merely refers to the method by which the DNA got where it is. We don't say "touch fingerprints", DNA comes with fingers as well. Even after death, humans are shedding/discarding some DNA. DNA persists for centuries, even millennia, in some cases. DNA can be obtained through indirect methods of analysis - which would be much harder to explain to a jury. There's no evidence that any of these reconstructive methods were used in this case.

I believe BK used tactics that were specifically designed to keep himself from being bloody - the technique I've described (unlike throat slashing) does not produce external blood spurts - but there would have been blood, for sure. He wore a mask, suitable clothing and gloves. He had prepared his car to receive those items, just in case he was stopped (we know of three traffic errors resulting in stops for him - I don't think he's a great driver).

I'm going with "he took precautions and wasn't bloody" when he climbed back into the driver's seat of his car. No victim DNA was found inside his vehicle (that's according to AT though).

He did exactly what all forensic specialists know to do to keep their own DNA out of a crime scene (this is usually learned at the bachelor's level in criminal justice, a doctoral candidate in criminology would know this and should be prepared to explain and TEACH it, criminologists are hired as consultants by LE agencies to review, do and establish such training). It's an area of specialization, however (no grad student would be hired in such a capacity - and they'd need more than grad criminology coursework in the forensic anthropology/genetics to get to that level of expertise). I have tagged along and suited up to make sure my own DNA didn't contaminate a crime scene (they still take samples of all forensic personnel and visitors to crime scenes if there's good local LE practice - you can find videos of the Moscow PD forensic investigators suiting up - including the crime scene photographers). I've been to a body farm and suited up there for the same reason (as the whole point of my field trip was to observe various field DNA collection techniques).

BK did very well, so far as we know, at keeping his DNA off objects - as I hope I did when I did the above things. BK used his training as a criminal justice and budding criminologist to aid in planning this crime - to me, it almost HAS to be someone with extensive knowledge of how to avoid forensic detection. A student of crime plans a crime - this is what it looks like. I also think his VSS plays a role in learning to plan things carefully and adjust for variables that the rest of us might find nerve-wracking.

I would love to see an academic citation or two describing what, exactly "touch DNA" is (other than a popular notion). Here is an article where it is mentioned, but in quotation marks (because it is not proper scientific terminology). Note that the author uses the word "trace" to mean the same thing. That's how it was usually referred to until the press started using other terms. But the press are not DNA experts.


And here is example of how the term is currently used in science (to mean epithelial DNA):


Some view any sample gained with a swab to be "touch" DNA (which makes sense, as shorthand). Note that there's high scientific validity to what scientists are calling touch/epithelial DNA. I am at a loss as to why anyone (including journalists) think that epithelial DNA is problematic. But then, some people thought fingerprints were problematic. The media has decided "touch" DNA is a specific forensic problem - but that's wildly inaccurate.

IMO.
“10”, you are amazing!
 
If it is touch DNA as reported by Howard Blum in "Eyes of a Killer" then I think any good defense attorney can easily destroy the touch DNA evidence before a jury. However, I'm curious about what the defense DNA witnesses have to say about their findings, whatever they were.

Interesting that Stevens Hall was not demolished like 1122 King Rd, since it was also the scene of a heinous stabbing - a case which remains unsolved to this day. But, instead, people live in Stevens Hall.

All JMO.
BKs skin cells found in a high touch hard to clean area of a part of the murder weapon assembly.

Stevens Hall was the murder of one person, confirmed a murder 9 months after her disappearance, and different times.
 
Everyone was asleep except Xana, apparently. No one heard anything. Murphy the Dog may have growled (misinterpreted as playful growling by one of the surviving roommates). There was no chaos.

It was fast, gruesome and silent. No one alerted to anything. People inside the house would not have seen the blood right away (there's some on the outside of the house - and there are latent bloody footprints from someone coming down the stairs - but no mention of pooled blood inside the house. Latent means "invisible."

The bloody footprints belong to a person who appears to be the intruder - a single person's footprints. I think we'd have heard if there were two sets and LE would be looking for that other person. In order to produce bloody footprints, someone had to step in blood, for sure.

There is no such thing as indirect DNA. Every cell in an organism has "direct" DNA. It has only one form and is created in only one set of processes (cellular division). Sweat is not indirect. It's a body fluid. Body fluids like semen and sweat are not indirect. The would make rape kids "indirect," but I've never heard anyone say that. It's likely epithelial DNA, given where it was found. Doesn't matter the type of cell from which it came. DNA is DNA.

It was not even what is sometimes called "trace" DNA (that has an entirely different meaning in forensic science). It is "touch" DNA (an encounter between the body and an object which leaves a DNA trace of that person being very near or touching the object - there is now research on exhaled DNA as well. Epithelial DNA is by far the most common type of forensic DNA that's found.

"Touch" merely refers to the method by which the DNA got where it is. We don't say "touch fingerprints", DNA comes with fingers as well. Even after death, humans are shedding/discarding some DNA. DNA persists for centuries, even millennia, in some cases. DNA can be obtained through indirect methods of analysis - which would be much harder to explain to a jury. There's no evidence that any of these reconstructive methods were used in this case.

I believe BK used tactics that were specifically designed to keep himself from being bloody - the technique I've described (unlike throat slashing) does not produce external blood spurts - but there would have been blood, for sure. He wore a mask, suitable clothing and gloves. He had prepared his car to receive those items, just in case he was stopped (we know of three traffic errors resulting in stops for him - I don't think he's a great driver).

I'm going with "he took precautions and wasn't bloody" when he climbed back into the driver's seat of his car. No victim DNA was found inside his vehicle (that's according to AT though).

He did exactly what all forensic specialists know to do to keep their own DNA out of a crime scene (this is usually learned at the bachelor's level in criminal justice, a doctoral candidate in criminology would know this and should be prepared to explain and TEACH it, criminologists are hired as consultants by LE agencies to review, do and establish such training). It's an area of specialization, however (no grad student would be hired in such a capacity - and they'd need more than grad criminology coursework in the forensic anthropology/genetics to get to that level of expertise). I have tagged along and suited up to make sure my own DNA didn't contaminate a crime scene (they still take samples of all forensic personnel and visitors to crime scenes if there's good local LE practice - you can find videos of the Moscow PD forensic investigators suiting up - including the crime scene photographers). I've been to a body farm and suited up there for the same reason (as the whole point of my field trip was to observe various field DNA collection techniques).

BK did very well, so far as we know, at keeping his DNA off objects - as I hope I did when I did the above things. BK used his training as a criminal justice and budding criminologist to aid in planning this crime - to me, it almost HAS to be someone with extensive knowledge of how to avoid forensic detection. A student of crime plans a crime - this is what it looks like. I also think his VSS plays a role in learning to plan things carefully and adjust for variables that the rest of us might find nerve-wracking.

I would love to see an academic citation or two describing what, exactly "touch DNA" is (other than a popular notion). Here is an article where it is mentioned, but in quotation marks (because it is not proper scientific terminology). Note that the author uses the word "trace" to mean the same thing. That's how it was usually referred to until the press started using other terms. But the press are not DNA experts.


And here is example of how the term is currently used in science (to mean epithelial DNA):


Some view any sample gained with a swab to be "touch" DNA (which makes sense, as shorthand). Note that there's high scientific validity to what scientists are calling touch/epithelial DNA. I am at a loss as to why anyone (including journalists) think that epithelial DNA is problematic. But then, some people thought fingerprints were problematic. The media has decided "touch" DNA is a specific forensic problem - but that's wildly inaccurate.

IMO.
Thanks for this.
 
Not legal. They have to do it by the book imo

ETA door handle or any of his private property needs a warrant is my understanding
I'm pretty sure BK had trash in Pullman and THAT does not require a warrant once he threw it out, so LE could have watched him take his trash out and gotten it then or watched him at WSU - like at lunch and taken his trash after he threw it away. They might have easily gotten a cup he drank from in the trash or a half eaten something or a plastic fork for his salad.

All JMO.
 
I'm pretty sure BK had trash in Pullman and THAT does not require a warrant once he threw it out, so LE could have watched him take his trash out and gotten it then or watched him at WSU - like at lunch and taken his trash after he threw it away. They might have easily gotten a cup he drank from in the trash or a half eaten something or a plastic fork for his salad.

All JMO.
MOO BK was already packing up his trash in baggies and disposing of it clandestinely.
 
MOO BK was already packing up his trash in baggies and disposing of it clandestinely.
If police were sitting outside his apartment, they would have seen that. If they were following their suspect whenever he drove anywhere, they would have seen that. I'm sure he had a heavy schedule at WSU (all PhD students do) so if he ate or drank anything during the day at school, police could have seen that and retrieved it. LE knew about him by November 29, 2022. He and his dad didn't leave for Pennsylvania until December 15, 2022. There would have been many chances to get his trash.
 
If police were sitting outside his apartment, they would have seen that. If they were following their suspect whenever he drove anywhere, they would have seen that. I'm sure he had a heavy schedule at WSU (all PhD students do) so if he ate or drank anything during the day at school, police could have seen that and retrieved it. LE knew about him by November 29, 2022. He and his dad didn't leave for Pennsylvania until December 15, 2022. There would have been many chances to get his trash.

<modsnip>
There wasn't "many chances to get his trash" before he left and that was PROVED in Pennsylvania when they caught him separating the trash.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The kitchen window next to the slider got lot of forensic attention, maybe in the window and out the door.
Some are easy to pry open with a screwdriver - and of course it may not have been locked.

Puts me in mind of how Xana's dad had recently taken on the task of repairing her door lock. With so many people going in and out on most Friday nights (their pre-party parties), if the slider didn't lock properly (do any of them truly lock properly??), was she worried? They had so many people in and out of the house, it wouldn't be noticed if small things went missing or were moved around.

I do think that BK, like most of this type of murderer, got started with hot prowling back in his teen years, with taking small items (even from his own family members). Like Joe DeAngelo. Both studied criminal justice as well. DeAngelo actually surveilled victim houses while in his police car and in uniform. It's possible that he actually responded to one of his own burglaries (in Visalia).

Peeping Tom's, as they used to be called, are known as hot prowlers if their goal is to find homes with people inside. Sometimes criminals do both hot and cold prowling. College campus areas are usually prime targets for daytime cold prowlers (who then may become hot prowlers at night). It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kohberger had been in the house during the day, when everyone was at school - and even at night, before the murders. Such perps describe the thrill of it. I'm sure it's adrenalin and dopamine producing for them.

I used to be very lax about closing curtains, etc (grew up in a small town) but as a result of studying crime and criminal behavior, I am now diligent. We also have motion sensor cameras, etc. I wish there had been cameras at the apartment building next to 1122 - and if there had been cameras throughout 1122, I don't think this crime would have happened. Indeed, it makes sense that BK (who may have also broken into his classmate's apt) would go and check out the camera situation.

I'm pretty sure BK had trash in Pullman and THAT does not require a warrant once he threw it out, so LE could have watched him take his trash out and gotten it then or watched him at WSU - like at lunch and taken his trash after he threw it away. They might have easily gotten a cup he drank from in the trash or a half eaten something or a plastic fork for his salad.

All JMO.
The time line is wrong - and perhaps this is why AT is so interested. It did not happen that way. Here's what I think happened. Most of it has been discussed here in bits and pieces.

They had DNA of a John Doe. No identity whatsoever. Could not go outside his apartment to collect trash.

SO, they submitted it to IGG (I forget which service) and it spat back a list of names (a short list, I think I read there were 2 close matches). One of those people was a Kohberger. That Kohberger was not a lineal relative of their suspect (a cousin or uncle or something - but it gave them a name). They investigated the names of the 2 closest matches, as I understand it.

Meanwhile, back in Pullman, local PD and Moscow PD had had a Kohberger, criminology student, on their radar already. His name was Kohberger. Bingo! You are correct that they could have tried snooping around him (although I doubt he ever left DNA at restaurants or classrooms - at least not in amounts swabable and traceable to one individual). They may have considered it.

I think it's very interesting from a forensic/psychiatric point of view that it seems they did not want to alarm BK, because if he was the mass murderer - he was a very, very dangerous person. They probably had an FBI profiler tell them to treat him gingerly and not set off any vibes that would spook him/cause him to try something desperate.

So the safe course of action (to avoid a suicide by cop scenario or a last minute of freedom Ted Bundy style killing spree) was to get his father's DNA. They knew who his father was. They had a birth certificate. So they got the Dad's DNA and put it through regular paternity testing, the kind used all across the world.

And Bingo! again. Bryan's father is...genetically his father. Since Kohberger Sr has only one son, the killer is, perforce, Bryan Kohberger.

So that was enough for probable cause (I would sure hope so - it's an airtight probable cause situation).

They arrest Kohberger. Had his actual DNA not matched the sheath sample, we would probably not be awaiting trial.

IMO.
 
I feel like the trials of Amanda Knox, Lukis Anderson and to some extent OJ Simpsons all lead to todays current misunderstanding and confusion around touch and trace DNA and its conflation with the act of transferring (primary or secondary) of DNA and/or impartial profiles.

Word soup right? It’s a mess.

Also worth noting that my focus is on the the confusion around words/keywords/terms (real or perceived) and definitions.

I am not speaking to the scientific or evidentiary validity as I have no authority to speak on it.

MOO
 
The kitchen window next to the slider got lot of forensic attention, maybe in the window and out the door.
Some are easy to pry open with a screwdriver - and of course it may not have been locked.

Puts me in mind of how Xana's dad had recently taken on the task of repairing her door lock. With so many people going in and out on most Friday nights (their pre-party parties), if the slider didn't lock properly (do any of them truly lock properly??), was she worried? They had so many people in and out of the house, it wouldn't be noticed if small things went missing or were moved around.

I do think that BK, like most of this type of murderer, got started with hot prowling back in his teen years, with taking small items (even from his own family members). Like Joe DeAngelo. Both studied criminal justice as well. DeAngelo actually surveilled victim houses while in his police car and in uniform. It's possible that he actually responded to one of his own burglaries (in Visalia).

Peeping Tom's, as they used to be called, are known as hot prowlers if their goal is to find homes with people inside. Sometimes criminals do both hot and cold prowling. College campus areas are usually prime targets for daytime cold prowlers (who then may become hot prowlers at night). It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kohberger had been in the house during the day, when everyone was at school - and even at night, before the murders. Such perps describe the thrill of it. I'm sure it's adrenalin and dopamine producing for them.
 
Meanwhile, back in Pullman, local PD and Moscow PD had had a Kohberger, criminology student, on their radar already. His name was Kohberger. Bingo! You are correct that they could have tried snooping around him (although I doubt he ever left DNA at restaurants or classrooms - at least not in amounts swabable and traceable to one individual). They may have considered it.



IMO.
Trimmed/edited for focus by me (amazing post by the way that I 100% agree with.)

IMO BK’s defense team admitting (in the last hearing) that prosecutors made good on providing them with a timeline and evidence of when BK became a person of interest COMBINED with the fact that the defense has not said one peep about this issue since (after spending all of last summer and a good chunk of the fall on it) tells me that you are right.

Sorry for the run on sentence.

MOO
 
If police were sitting outside his apartment, they would have seen that. If they were following their suspect whenever he drove anywhere, they would have seen that. I'm sure he had a heavy schedule at WSU (all PhD students do) so if he ate or drank anything during the day at school, police could have seen that and retrieved it. LE knew about him by November 29, 2022. He and his dad didn't leave for Pennsylvania until December 15, 2022. There would have been many chances to get his trash.
MOO the police pursuing BK collected lawfully.
 
I do love the obvious fact that you are so very open minded but I was taught sometimes we have to put the shovel down and quit digging.
There wasn't "many chances to get his trash" before he left and that was PROVED in Pennsylvania when they caught him separating the trash.
Actually, the separated trash in Pennsylvania is a requirement of the Rules and Regulations of the neighborhood BK's parents live in. Take a look at Article XV - Sanitation Rules number 4 page 20 here:

According to the rules, there is a 5 can, 5 bag limit on garbage and everything had to be separated and bagged separately. It had just been Christmas which usually equals extra garbage for gift wrap, boxes, food, etc. 5 people in the Kohberger household which was usually only 2 or 3 would mean lots of extra trash. An obvious and logical question would be to ask if BK was disposing of trash in the neighbors trash can because he knew the neighbors went away for Christmas and the Kohberger cans were full or if they had given permission for him to do that since their trash was not full. I don't know the answer to that, but my neighborhood has similar restrictions, though not quite as onerous as these and it is not unusual for neighbors to use each others trash cans in a pinch when we have too much trash and the neighbor is away. What can be said for certain is that BK was sorting trash for his parents because that is what is required in the neighborhood rules and regulations AND it was just after Christmas which means lots of extra trash for most people who celebrate Christmas.
 
Even
Actually, the separated trash in Pennsylvania is a requirement of the Rules and Regulations of the neighborhood BK's parents live in. Take a look at Article XV - Sanitation Rules number 4 page 20 here:

According to the rules, there is a 5 can, 5 bag limit on garbage and everything had to be separated and bagged separately. It had just been Christmas which usually equals extra garbage for gift wrap, boxes, food, etc. 5 people in the Kohberger household which was usually only 2 or 3 would mean lots of extra trash. An obvious and logical question would be to ask if BK was disposing of trash in the neighbors trash can because he knew the neighbors went away for Christmas and the Kohberger cans were full or if they had given permission for him to do that since their trash was not full. I don't know the answer to that, but my neighborhood has similar restrictions, though not quite as onerous as these and it is not unusual for neighbors to use each others trash cans in a pinch when we have too much trash and the neighbor is away. What can be said for certain is that BK was sorting trash for his parents because that is what is required in the neighborhood rules and regulations AND it was just after Christmas which means lots of extra trash for most people who celebrate Christmas.
if he wasn’t a person of interest in a quadruple murder, with his cellular location around the area of the crime on numerous occasions, his phone off on the night of, his DNA inside of the house AKA at the scene, on a murder knife sheath, and he didn’t drive the almost the same exact car as the murderer……

Sure.

Pretending, at this very moment, that those things aren’t true… I’ll concede that the trash thing and the gloves thing in the middle of the night could be innocuous. Christmas.


MOO
 
You raise some interesting questions, and unfortunately, the answers are complex and lengthy.

TL;DR: the word "profile" is not precise or scientific; it is a tool - like alphabetization or use of letters to denote sounds.

The very word "profile" is the problem. Human DNA is 99.5% the same as chimp DNA. Humans are 50% the same, genetically, as bananas.

The word "profile" is used to denote the process by which geneticists study the relevant part of the DNA. It's silly and useless to use the part we share with so many life forms (fruit flies, palm trees, cows, etc). Instead, we look only at the...parts that make us human. We do not profile bananas in order to find a human, obviously (that is supposed to be funny, I realize this is kind of dry).

A FULL DNA sample would contain 50-300 million separate base pairs. But we don't need all of those in order to make a match - we need the parts that are specific to humans. When the lab looked at the DNA, they likely chose to look at...the base pairs associated with being human. Further, there are sets of base pairs (we can call them SNP's when we are talking about variation in a base pair) that have a lot of variation. THAT is what we have to look at.

If humans are 99.5% the same as chimps, we need to study ONLY the specific parts of the genome that relate first to...being human and then to being a human individual. Some base pairs have tremendous variation (hemoglobin for example - has about 600 variants in just one base pair). If we look at hemoglobin variation closely, we can see that once upon a time we had hemoglobin similar to that of chimps, but our line had an early mutation (maybe 6 million years ago) that then spread through out the genus *advertiser censored* (to ergaster, erectus, habilis, etc) - so we share some of those markers with them. However, we have tremendous variation at that one location.

One set of SNP's is not enough to make a match. What is wanted is for ALL of the relevant SNP's in the sample to match another sample (in this case BK's full DNA - which is what we get with a cheek swab). The lab said it was "single source" DNA, which means that all of the bits of DNA on the sheath came from the same person (the various strands were tested against each other to see if it was one person or more than one person). That means the lab had plenty of SNP's to make that determination. Indeed, it seemed to me at the time that they had entire chromosomes. I don't think a determination of "single source" (or sex of the contributor) can be made without complete chromosomes (or relatively complete). Did they have his ENTIRE set of genes on that sheath? We don't know. What they did find was sufficient DNA to conduct the legally admissible STR analysis (which is not considered profiling in the way that SNP analysis is a sampled profile - a profile just means "consistent sampling technique" in DNA labwork).

To sum up, we do not look at 300,000,000 variant base pairs when we find the specific SNP's that denote H. sapiens. We look at the genes that make us human. So that's 0.5% of 300,000,000. Does the public want banana analysis added back in? I don't think so. We can deduce ethnicity from facts surrounding whether there is much variation within the given sample (so, some people do NOT have 300,000,000 varying base pairs - they have far fewer, only 50,000,000). This occurs due to inbreeding coefficients in isolated places (so for example, my non-European ancestors include populations where there is much less genetic variation than in Europe, whereas my European ancestors have much more variation, especially after arriving in the Americas).

What the lab did was compare the valuable SNP's in the sample, sufficient in number to make the analysis, with an online genetic database.

What the Defense is asking for has nothing to do with profiles or sampling. They know that's been done in the standard, worldwide-accepted scientific manner. What is going on is the questioning of the IGG process.

I would say that it's somewhat like requiring the phone company to explain and divulge how they got the numbers in the phone book. It's such a wierd (and naive?) question that most experts in phone analysis would just stare in disbelief. "We are the phone company; we issue the numbers to a person who has given us some proof of name and identity, we simply print it out and put it in a book - so that people can look up each others' phone numbers!"

IGG is a big phone book, with identities, of DNA.



and for more about our similarity to bananas, this is a good piece:


Most anthropological geneticists say that there are only 1000-1500 genes that actually distinguish humans from other close species. That's what we're looking at in forensic analysis, unless we think a chimp did it (which would be pretty obvious if it was chimp DNA). Is that a profile? The press uses the word loosely. It is not merely a "sample" - it's the core of our biological identity, the roots of the human genomic tree.
10ofRods: Thank you. This is such a good explanation.
 
Actually, the separated trash in Pennsylvania is a requirement of the Rules and Regulations of the neighborhood BK's parents live in. Take a look at Article XV - Sanitation Rules number 4 page 20 here:

According to the rules, there is a 5 can, 5 bag limit on garbage and everything had to be separated and bagged separately. It had just been Christmas which usually equals extra garbage for gift wrap, boxes, food, etc.

If you are referring to the night he was arrested, what he was doing, as reported by Monroe County First Assistant District Attorney Michael Mancuso, was NOT sorting out items the cardboard from the aluminum from the food trash per the neighborhood rules:

BBM:

"At the time, Kohberger was 'wearing latex medical-type gloves and apparently was taking his personal trash and putting it into separate Ziploc baggies,' Mancuso added."


And no, he wasn't using the Ziploc baggies as a "clear plastic bag" to sort recyclables into. Not if you are making the case that there was so much extra trash because it was post holidays after sibling visits that he had to put trash in the neighbor's cans too. That total amount of trash generates more recycling than a gallon Ziploc. Heck, even if it was a week's worth of trash for just 3 people, that's going to generate more plastic/glass recyclables than a Ziploc bag.
 
If you are referring to the night he was arrested, what he was doing, as reported by Monroe County First Assistant District Attorney Michael Mancuso, was NOT sorting out items the cardboard from the aluminum from the food trash per the neighborhood rules:

BBM:

"At the time, Kohberger was 'wearing latex medical-type gloves and apparently was taking his personal trash and putting it into separate Ziploc baggies,' Mancuso added."


And no, he wasn't using the Ziploc baggies as a "clear plastic bag" to sort recyclables into. Not if you are making the case that there was so much extra trash because it was post holidays after sibling visits that he had to put trash in the neighbor's cans too. That total amount of trash generates more recycling than a gallon Ziploc. Heck, even if it was a week's worth of trash for just 3 people, that's going to generate more plastic/glass recyclables than a Ziploc bag.

This is misinformation....

There is no link to show where this pdf even comes from and no link to support that BK's parents even had to follow these specific rules. BK was, as you said, not sorting trash for normal disposal, he was bagging up all of his own personal trash.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
176
Guests online
556
Total visitors
732

Forum statistics

Threads
596,442
Messages
18,047,724
Members
230,003
Latest member
damnthatsux
Back
Top