4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

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Cool Cats said:
This is misinformation....

There is no link to show where this pdf even comes from and no link to support that BK's parents even had to follow these specific rules. BK was, as you said, not sorting trash for normal disposal, he was bagging up all of his own personal trash.
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I'm a tad confused. Why does everybody on the internet assume that the State of Idaho, MPD, etc. want to frame somebody? That's not a thing. If it happens, it's I hope exceedingly rare. We have to live in this town, we believe the police are busy doing their jobs and insinuating otherwise is unproven. MPD and their families live in Moscow. Just like the police in your town. They don't want a murderer running around. Let's keep this real. JMOO
 
10ofRods said:
Everyone was asleep except Xana, apparently. No one heard anything. Murphy the Dog may have growled (misinterpreted as playful growling by one of the surviving roommates). There was no chaos.

It was fast, gruesome and silent. No one alerted to anything. People inside the house would not have seen the blood right away (there's some on the outside of the house - and there are latent bloody footprints from someone coming down the stairs - but no mention of pooled blood inside the house. Latent means "invisible."

The bloody footprints belong to a person who appears to be the intruder - a single person's footprints. I think we'd have heard if there were two sets and LE would be looking for that other person. In order to produce bloody footprints, someone had to step in blood, for sure.

There is no such thing as indirect DNA. Every cell in an organism has "direct" DNA. It has only one form and is created in only one set of processes (cellular division). Sweat is not indirect. It's a body fluid. Body fluids like semen and sweat are not indirect. The would make rape kids "indirect," but I've never heard anyone say that. It's likely epithelial DNA, given where it was found. Doesn't matter the type of cell from which it came. DNA is DNA.

It was not even what is sometimes called "trace" DNA (that has an entirely different meaning in forensic science). It is "touch" DNA (an encounter between the body and an object which leaves a DNA trace of that person being very near or touching the object - there is now research on exhaled DNA as well. Epithelial DNA is by far the most common type of forensic DNA that's found.

"Touch" merely refers to the method by which the DNA got where it is. We don't say "touch fingerprints", DNA comes with fingers as well. Even after death, humans are shedding/discarding some DNA. DNA persists for centuries, even millennia, in some cases. DNA can be obtained through indirect methods of analysis - which would be much harder to explain to a jury. There's no evidence that any of these reconstructive methods were used in this case.

I believe BK used tactics that were specifically designed to keep himself from being bloody - the technique I've described (unlike throat slashing) does not produce external blood spurts - but there would have been blood, for sure. He wore a mask, suitable clothing and gloves. He had prepared his car to receive those items, just in case he was stopped (we know of three traffic errors resulting in stops for him - I don't think he's a great driver).

I'm going with "he took precautions and wasn't bloody" when he climbed back into the driver's seat of his car. No victim DNA was found inside his vehicle (that's according to AT though).

He did exactly what all forensic specialists know to do to keep their own DNA out of a crime scene (this is usually learned at the bachelor's level in criminal justice, a doctoral candidate in criminology would know this and should be prepared to explain and TEACH it, criminologists are hired as consultants by LE agencies to review, do and establish such training). It's an area of specialization, however (no grad student would be hired in such a capacity - and they'd need more than grad criminology coursework in the forensic anthropology/genetics to get to that level of expertise). I have tagged along and suited up to make sure my own DNA didn't contaminate a crime scene (they still take samples of all forensic personnel and visitors to crime scenes if there's good local LE practice - you can find videos of the Moscow PD forensic investigators suiting up - including the crime scene photographers). I've been to a body farm and suited up there for the same reason (as the whole point of my field trip was to observe various field DNA collection techniques).

BK did very well, so far as we know, at keeping his DNA off objects - as I hope I did when I did the above things. BK used his training as a criminal justice and budding criminologist to aid in planning this crime - to me, it almost HAS to be someone with extensive knowledge of how to avoid forensic detection. A student of crime plans a crime - this is what it looks like. I also think his VSS plays a role in learning to plan things carefully and adjust for variables that the rest of us might find nerve-wracking.

I would love to see an academic citation or two describing what, exactly "touch DNA" is (other than a popular notion). Here is an article where it is mentioned, but in quotation marks (because it is not proper scientific terminology). Note that the author uses the word "trace" to mean the same thing. That's how it was usually referred to until the press started using other terms. But the press are not DNA experts.


And here is example of how the term is currently used in science (to mean epithelial DNA):


Some view any sample gained with a swab to be "touch" DNA (which makes sense, as shorthand). Note that there's high scientific validity to what scientists are calling touch/epithelial DNA. I am at a loss as to why anyone (including journalists) think that epithelial DNA is problematic. But then, some people thought fingerprints were problematic. The media has decided "touch" DNA is a specific forensic problem - but that's wildly inaccurate.

IMO.
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Thank you for this @10ofRods and for your previous long post regarding dna 'profiles', str analysis etc.I think your knowledge is invaluable for this case. I know you've posted prolifically throughout the threads and your patience is phenomenal! moo
 
Chloegirl said:
I'm a tad confused. Why does everybody on the internet assume that the State of Idaho, MPD, etc. want to frame somebody? That's not a thing. If it happens, it's I hope exceedingly rare. We have to live in this town, we believe the police are busy doing their jobs and insinuating otherwise is unproven. MPD and their families live in Moscow. Just like the police in your town. They don't want a murderer running around. Let's keep this real. JMOO
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I haven't seen anyone claiming that. Just the defense trying to raise doubt by falsely asserting that the DNA went through so many different LE hands that it cannot be reliable.

The sheath would have been sealed in a special evidence bag and sent to the lab, not handed off to a dozen different officers.

2 Cents
 
Cool Cats said:
This is misinformation....

There is no link to show where this pdf even comes from and no link to support that BK's parents even had to follow these specific rules. BK was, as you said, not sorting trash for normal disposal, he was bagging up all of his own personal trash.
Click to expand...
This realtor shows it is real: Indian Mountain Lakes Community
As does this one:
www.carboncountyhomepage.com

Indian Mountain Lakes Homes

Information and MLS Listings For Indian Mountain Lakes Real Estate
www.carboncountyhomepage.com www.carboncountyhomepage.com

Why is it hard to believe that Indian Mountain Lake has a homeowner's Association? Nowadays 30% of homes in America are in an HOA.
 
10ofRods said:
I have an explanation, and very little to base it on. If you look into what techniques are taught in the military for the use of the KaBar knife, one is "silent killing." This involves the same type of injuries that Mr. Gonaçalves describes for Kaylee.

The idea is to strike the liver and the lungs. The knife is held in the "tennis racquet" grip, not the slasher grip. It should take only 2-3 strikes. BK, a former boxer, knows exactly where the liver is. The lungs are the first target (striking up under the rib cage - similar to some punches in boxing). The strike to the lungs prevents any further speech or sound from the victims. The coup-de-grâce goes to the liver, causing massive bleed-out.

BK, IMO, practiced this technique. Was he able to use it on everyone? It would seem so - since the roommates apparently heard very little.

It seems statistically VERY possible to me, since the military use this technique. You can google it (it's graphic). You can watch youtubes on this (look for knife training). There are even knife classes throughout the US (and Moscow, ID, interestingly, had an ax throwing business at the time the murders occurred. People who learn knife skills often also study ax throwing. It's a whole hobbyist thing. There are a couple of ways to do a silent kill - the one I just described is one of them.

I would love to know if BK grew up with knives. He clearly understood them well enough to buy a KaBar, military-style knife used in some of the youtube videos on offensive knife training.
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RSBM for focus:
BK worked at a fish market filleting fish. That and the fact that he boxed (above average hand and upper body strength and was an avid runner (above average endurance) I'd wager he was able to commit these murders in minutes with very little noise at all. That Kbar was designed to do massive damage and keep from slipping with the guard around it.

MOO
 
Chloegirl said:
I'm a tad confused. Why does everybody on the internet assume that the State of Idaho, MPD, etc. want to frame somebody? That's not a thing. If it happens, it's I hope exceedingly rare. We have to live in this town, we believe the police are busy doing their jobs and insinuating otherwise is unproven. MPD and their families live in Moscow. Just like the police in your town. They don't want a murderer running around. Let's keep this real. JMOO
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People prone to conspiracy theory as the FIRST theory... not the basic facts of the case.

It's a mindset. They are in the minority though
 
Justice101 said:
People prone to conspiracy theory as the FIRST theory... not the basic facts of the case.

It's a mindset. They are in the minority though
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Thank goodness. I guess it makes for a better 'story', never mind the four innocent, murdered college students, their grieving families and loved ones, and a town that has been decimated by the tragedy and the horrible press attention.

JMO
 
schooling said:
Even

if he wasn’t a person of interest in a quadruple murder, with his cellular location around the area of the crime on numerous occasions, his phone off on the night of, his DNA inside of the house AKA at the scene, on a murder knife sheath, and he didn’t drive the almost the same exact car as the murderer……

Sure.

Pretending, at this very moment, that those things aren’t true… I’ll concede that the trash thing and the gloves thing in the middle of the night could be innocuous. Christmas.


MOO
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Try as I might, I can't really see a scenario in which his trash-sorting, glove-wearing nocturnal activities add up to anything more than a guy with OCD who knows he has to sort the trash but doesn't want to get anything on his hands.

I don't recall that they found anything that links him to the killings in that trash, and in the absence of any recovered evidence, he must have been just taking out the trash. In his own weird way...

I never thought he'd be tossing out evidence in the trash at his parents' house. He seems more like the methodical type who would have gotten rid of any evidence long before he went home for Xmas vacay.
 
GRT said:
Try as I might, I can't really see a scenario in which his trash-sorting, glove-wearing nocturnal activities add up to anything more than a guy with OCD who knows he has to sort the trash but doesn't want to get anything on his hands.

I don't recall that they found anything that links him to the killings in that trash, and in the absence of any recovered evidence, he must have been just taking out the trash. In his own weird way...

I never thought he'd be tossing out evidence in the trash at his parents' house. He seems more like the methodical type who would have gotten rid of any evidence long before he went home for Xmas vacay.
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IMO, I do not think it was for the physical evidence, they mostly wanted a sample of his dna.
 
Chloegirl said:
I'm a tad confused. Why does everybody on the internet assume that the State of Idaho, MPD, etc. want to frame somebody? That's not a thing. If it happens, it's I hope exceedingly rare. We have to live in this town, we believe the police are busy doing their jobs and insinuating otherwise is unproven. MPD and their families live in Moscow. Just like the police in your town. They don't want a murderer running around. Let's keep this real. JMOO
Click to expand...
I think frame-ups by LE are exceedingly rare. But, they've happened in the past, and maybe it's because LE has the ability to take away a person's freedom that it makes some people leery of their agenda.

I have family in LE, and they were upset when all the protests and riots were going on. They felt they were being unfairly maligned. Thank goodness that's died down, but suspicion about LE lingers in many corners.

I think it's related to suspicion over anything government-related.
 
Balthazar said:
Actually, the separated trash in Pennsylvania is a requirement of the Rules and Regulations of the neighborhood BK's parents live in. Take a look at Article XV - Sanitation Rules number 4 page 20 here:

According to the rules, there is a 5 can, 5 bag limit on garbage and everything had to be separated and bagged separately. It had just been Christmas which usually equals extra garbage for gift wrap, boxes, food, etc. 5 people in the Kohberger household which was usually only 2 or 3 would mean lots of extra trash. An obvious and logical question would be to ask if BK was disposing of trash in the neighbors trash can because he knew the neighbors went away for Christmas and the Kohberger cans were full or if they had given permission for him to do that since their trash was not full. I don't know the answer to that, but my neighborhood has similar restrictions, though not quite as onerous as these and it is not unusual for neighbors to use each others trash cans in a pinch when we have too much trash and the neighbor is away. What can be said for certain is that BK was sorting trash for his parents because that is what is required in the neighborhood rules and regulations AND it was just after Christmas which means lots of extra trash for most people who celebrate Christmas.
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<modsnip: Personalizing is not allowed> ... I have a weekend home in a gated community in the Poconos. Around Christmas/New Years/4th of July, the rules are pretty much given a LOT of leeway, just for that reason. Also, we have a dumpster area with a recycle bin to put any trash in between refuse pick up. Everything is on a cam and we need to use our "swipe" card, as well, so people don't just dump tons of garbage.
Also, my full-time home has limits on the number of bags/cans. Again, it's pretty fluid and practically extinct around/before/after the holidays. Pretty positive a "baggy" full of stuff doesn't counts as a full size "bag" of refuse. Imagine full size Hefty bags, five of them, for 5 people?? Also, wrapping paper is supposed to be in the recycle bins, same as boxes.
Some things just are what they are.20240523.jpg

Wanted to add I put paper in the quart and gallon baggies for easier visual. The black one is for a regular trash can.
 
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GRT said:
Try as I might, I can't really see a scenario in which his trash-sorting, glove-wearing nocturnal activities add up to anything more than a guy with OCD who knows he has to sort the trash but doesn't want to get anything on his hands.

I don't recall that they found anything that links him to the killings in that trash, and in the absence of any recovered evidence, he must have been just taking out the trash. In his own weird way...

I never thought he'd be tossing out evidence in the trash at his parents' house. He seems more like the methodical type who would have gotten rid of any evidence long before he went home for Xmas vacay.
Click to expand...
IMO, BK knew LE was on to him after the traffic stops and he was doing everything he could to keep LE from getting his DNA to match to the sheath, not so much that he was destroying evidence.

I think BK got rid of the murder evidence (bloody knife, cover ups, etc.) either in the Snake River or piece by piece on his cross country drive home to PA with Dad.

JMO
 
Chloegirl said:
I'm a tad confused. Why does everybody on the internet assume that the State of Idaho, MPD, etc. want to frame somebody? That's not a thing. If it happens, it's I hope exceedingly rare. We have to live in this town, we believe the police are busy doing their jobs and insinuating otherwise is unproven. MPD and their families live in Moscow. Just like the police in your town. They don't want a murderer running around. Let's keep this real. JMOO
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The MPD was exemplary. They were presented with a crime that is huge no matter the size of the city and MOO got him.
 
GRT said:
I think frame-ups by LE are exceedingly rare. But, they've happened in the past, and maybe it's because LE has the ability to take away a person's freedom that it makes some people leery of their agenda.

I have family in LE, and they were upset when all the protests and riots were going on. They felt they were being unfairly maligned. Thank goodness that's died down, but suspicion about LE lingers in many corners.

I think it's related to suspicion over anything government-related.
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I agree with you. We are also conditioned by many things to distrust and/or question the process as well as everyone involved in the process, not least of which is movies and tv shows making regular folks think cases always have a big surprising twist. Except in real life, such a twist is rare.

Still, defense attorneys preach to juries and news cameras about a rush to judgement as if not scouring the earth for another, less obvious suspect (despite no evidence of such a person) is a failure of judgment. I would be surprised if we don't hear a version of this from AT during the trial.

AT may succeed in getting the DNA thrown out (I don't really think so), or convince one juror that the State's case is fatally flawed, but I just don't see how anyone can really think the FBI, Pennsylvania State Police, Idaho State Police and the Moscow Police Department would all frame BK, or all fall for someone else doing so. Actually, I don't think we have heard of a single person in Washington/Idaho with enough of a connection to BK to select him as a good fall guy. MOOooo
 
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