4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

[Justice101]

I have to admit that his behavior is highly suspicious and odd. <modsnip- diagnosing> I believe he has serious psychological problems. I suspect that, if he is indeed guilty of these horrendous, evil murders, that he is using this whole case for his own sick pleasure. He may have even left the sheath with touch DNA intentionally, because he truly wanted to be caught and be right where he is now. I think he gets his kicks from sitting in the courtroom in his front row seat, viewing the macabre reality show that he created back on November 13th, 2022. His fantasy is to be exonerated and let's hope and pray that doesn't become a reality, if he is truly guilty of these maniacal and cruel murders.

I think he left the sheath there on purpose to taunt LE and the investigators... thinking that he had wiped every single spot of organic material with alcohol twice... but he didn't get the inside of the female end of the snap almost under the edge COMPLETELY.

You stick a wet rag into that snap and ring it around back and forth and try. But where your fingers touch the sharp edge when you actually use the snap, a few skin cells or two would peel off on the back side of that top sharp ring.

New snaps are very hard to unsnap and you often have to get in there dirty with your fingers and pry those buggers off. Especially for a knife sheath where is absolutely HAS TO be a strong snap.

Kudos to the investigators to pulling potential samples from EVERYWHERE on those snaps!! Very very meticulous work. Almost like a surgeon in there with a tiny bent q-tip.

 

[10ofRods]

I think he left the sheath there on purpose to taunt LE and the investigators... thinking that he had wiped every single spot of organic material with alcohol twice... but he didn't get the inside of the female end of the snap almost under the edge COMPLETELY.

You stick a wet rag into that snap and ring it around back and forth but where you fingers touch the sharp edge when you use the snap, a few skin cells or two would peel off on the back side of that top sharp ring.

Kudos to the investigators to pulling potential samples from EVERYWHERE on those snaps!!

View attachment 505642

Thank YOU for the close up. That inner groove would have been very hard to clear of all DNA (and only one person contributed to the DNA grabbed from there). It's actually a nice little nest for DNA (anthropologists look for the use points on everything - in order to swab for DNA: fish hook (the end you hold when you tie it on), ax handles, steering wheels).

Snaps.

I've been skeptical of the "he left it on purpose" idea, but your explanation of it is awesome. He would have need a very small pick-like (think dental surgeon) to try and clean that snap. He might have erroneously believed that rubbing alcohol would "kill" the DNA (disappear it). It can sometimes, but it usually takes many attempts. DNA is known to survive isopropyl alcohol, bleach, detergent and ammonia. Not always, but often.

If he did leave it on purpose, my mind goes to "He wanted mental credit for two murders of two beautiful women." It suited his own mind. It makes me ponder whether he planned to kill 2 other people (I don't think he knew Ethan was there nor that Xana was still awake and milling about).

IMO.

 

[Boxer]

He may have left the sheath on purpose, but I feel confident he didn't mean to leave his DNA.

If he did leave on purpose - the arrongance certainly came back to bite.

 

[Justice101]

Thank YOU for the close up. That inner groove would have been very hard to clear of all DNA (and only one person contributed to the DNA grabbed from there). It's actually a nice little nest for DNA (anthropologists look for the use points on everything - in order to swab for DNA: fish hook (the end you hold when you tie it on), ax handles, steering wheels).

Snaps.

I've been skeptical of the "he left it on purpose" idea, but your explanation of it is awesome. He would have need a very small pick-like (think dental surgeon) to try and clean that snap. He might have erroneously believed that rubbing alcohol would "kill" the DNA (disappear it). It can sometimes, but it usually takes many attempts. DNA is known to survive isopropyl alcohol, bleach, detergent and ammonia. Not always, but often.

If he did leave it on purpose, my mind goes to "He wanted mental credit for two murders of two beautiful women." It suited his own mind. It makes me ponder whether he planned to kill 2 other people (I don't think he knew Ethan was there nor that Xana was still awake and milling about).

IMO.

My (as well's as other's) theories are that he was consumed with serial killing and he wanted to be one himself.

He wanted to be infamous like BTK or Zodiac but not be caught and therefore go down in history as an unknown serial killer. I wouldn't be surprised if he bought a replacement sheath (or a new knife altogether) after the fact BEFORE he knew they were onto him... just so he could do it again some day and leave another "clean" sheath. The Knife Sheath Killer.

I think he would even be as so bold as to write a book about it once he got his PhD.

He thought he knew enough to get away with the perfect crime. But he forgot the first lesson in law enforcement, there is no perfect crime.

If true, that is pretty sick. Anyway, that theory might just be my runaway imagination getting the best of me.

 

[wendy44]

The entire point of the DA's comment was to insinuate that BK was trying to conceal his DNA. But:

1. How would a police officer know that was only BK's personal trash just from looking at it?
Answer: He wouldn't.
2. If this was ONLY the trash with BK's DNA on it, now law enforcement cannot prove it because they didn't take and test the trash.
3. Without testing the trash, they cannot prove BK was trying to conceal his DNA by disposing of his trash separately.

Without proof and evidence in regards to the 3 above points, this story is absolute rubbish. The SWAT team did not wear body cams, so a jury would have no way to even see what BK was doing when they breached the Kohberger home. This story is not legally provable in any way shape or form.

The PCA says that the dna retrieved from the trash was a familial match, BK's father, to the dna on the sheath. What is your theory on why there was no dna from BK himself in the family trash? Where was BK's trash?
JMO

 

[GRT]

I think the DNA evidence will be what ultimately puts BK away, but this case has really brought out the conspiracy theorists.

If a normal person was found sitting at the kitchen table wearing latex gloves and seemingly sorting trash -- sure, we could assume something sneaky was going on. <modsnip - diagnosing> so wearing those latex gloves is probably something that happens on a daily basis. Maybe he was trying to hide his DNA, maybe he wasn't, but Occam's Razor says he most likely didn't want to touch contaminated trash.

Also, I agree with another poster who said the Prosecution should just disclose whatever evidence they have that the Defense wants. This isn't supposed to be a gotcha game. This is supposed to be a trial based on the truth. What are they trying to do? Open the door to appeals?

I think BK is the killer. But some of these side theories are pretty far out there.

 

[GRT]

The PCA says that the dna retrieved from the trash was a familial match, BK's father, to the dna on the sheath. What is your theory on why there was no dna from BK himself in the family trash? Where was BK's trash?
JMO

How do we know there wasn't? LE didn't take and test all the trash.

 

[wendy44]

How do we know there wasn't? LE didn't take and test all the trash.

I guess we don't, but common sense and years of watching cases tells me that if BK's dna was found in that trash they would have used that comparison in the PCA, not the father's. If they're looking for BK's dna, they're going to test everything they have to try to find it.
JMO

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

IIRC this witness appeared solo today because of scheduling conflicts and the rest will appear later.

BINGO!

The official hearing is scheduled for 10 AM on 5/30/2024. Detective Mowery is unavailable that day, so his testimony was taken out of order, so to speak, yesterday.

As I understood the scope of his testimony with respect to the cellular data, he was specifically tasked with preparing one or more visual exhibits for the grand jury, MOO.

It was a simple matter of importing (not manipulating or inputting) ATT-provided CDR data for data visualization for the grand jury, nothing more, nothing less, MOO.

In any case, I’m not inclined to make anything about this out of context until we hear the rest, MOO.

Oh, one other point I will make: waiting for CAST report(s)/data from the FBI, and efforts by the State to speed up the process, have been openly discussed in several hearings over the months. It’s something that’s been established to the court’s satisfaction & it’s been acknowledged by the defense. Based on her acknowledgment in earlier hearings, I’m pretty sure this is far from the first time AT has encountered it, MOO.

Is the delay a problem? IANAL, but all parties (the State, the Defense, and the judge) seem unhappy about it, MOO.

 

[GRT]

I guess we don't, but common sense and years of watching cases tells me that if BK's dna was found in that trash they would have used that comparison in the PCA, not the father's. If they're looking for BK's dna, they're going to test everything they have to try to find it.
JMO

I get what you're saying but there are a couple of things to perhaps consider. First, criminal DNA testing isn't cheap, so if/when the lab determines they have a match, either via the suspect's DNA or that of a family member, they're going to stop testing. They have enough for a warrant. At that point all they need to do is swab BK.

The garbage match could have been a sibling match from one of his sisters or a maternal match from his mother. Any of those would have been sufficient to sink BK's little boat. But once they had a match of any sort--testing would have ceased. MOO

The other thing is the assumption BK was hiding his trash to hide his DNA. To me, that sounds like a stretch because BK was a graduate-level student in criminal law. He could hide his DNA all he wanted -- he knew LE could pull a match from any trash that had his family's DNA. If he were truly trying to hide his DNA, he would have hidden all his family's trash.

I'm guessing (JMOO) that BK's DNA was probably in the trash. LE just didn't need to keep hunting once they'd gotten a familial match. I'd also guess that his mother's and maybe his sisters' DNA was also in the trash, but again, we didn't hear that it was because testing ceased as soon as they had their familial match.

 

[grannygates]

he was specifically tasked with preparing one or more visual exhibits for the grand jury, MOO.

(snipped for focus)

this is the part that is confusing for me and perhaps there is a legal process or legal reasoning behind this, but what would be the difference between the report that was prepared for the grand jury a year ago and the report that was created for the Defense the day before the hearing we just witnessed.

Is it different data? why would they not just hand over the previous report that they created for the grand jury or simply re-create it again for the sole purposes of giving to the defense. why did it take a year to produce if they already had the data for the grand jury and the AA?

 

[Megnut]

The thing is....

AT is saying she can't firm up BK's nonspecific alibi defense until she sees all discovery the State has (she's entitled to see everything the State is obligated to turn over but nothing more), everything that's irrelevant (hard to fathom how much data that would be!) and of course the CAST report.

It's as if she's saying that, she wants to see ALL the places the State puts BK's car and all the places where they know it wasn't so she can create an alternate universe which puts BK driving magically on whatever is left. That is decidedly not an alibi.

I'm prepared for a Defense witness who will regale us with tales of how many white Elantras, years 2011 to 2017, exist on the planet, as if because there are many, it could have been any of those Elantras on CCTV. Except it wasn't.

Ironically, THE Elantra captured on CCTV is registered to the only person we know of who happens to admit that he was both awake and out driving in and around the entire crime window, in the middle of the night. Of the many white Elantras in the world, how many were on the road at 4 am in Moscow, near 1122? BK couldn't have chosen a more common, less inconspicuous car if he tried. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't lost in a sea of like models in a parking lot but was among only a few vehicles on the road at that hour. Stands out.

So AT is left to concede that it was BK's car when he left WSU and when he returned to WSU, but all those other captures? Not his Elantra.

I guess their SODDI is another insomniac with a white Elantra....

JMO

 

[Odeto BJ]

I think the defense has abandoned DNA as a evidentiary non-starter. Its possible that the Prosecution has enough video of the White Hyundai that night that they have established that it is Kohberger's car without license plate visibility, but rather due to the defects of long term exposure. Items such as: Mirror defects; curb rash on the wheels; focus of headlamps, condition of wiper blades or wiper arms, possibly damaged lenses on lights and so on. There was a case based on video some period of time ago where the evidence analyzers had screen grabbed multiple frames from a video and laid those still images one on top of another to get an upgraded photo of the vehicle....I believe the technique has also been rejected in court due to the skills required as well as the speed of the vehicle's motion not supporting such transposition at the frame rate of the video.

The latter probably would be discounted by modern cameras shooting a car moving slowly and making a 3-point turn but there may not be enough "good" frames to permit tracking the car from place to place with affirmed continuity.

I believe evidentiary rules would be, if the video itself were disclosed to the Defense, the Prosecution would have to list the expert but NOT disclose the resultant images because they would be work product...

Comments?

 

[Gemmie]

WRONG THREAD!!!!

 

[wendy44]

I get what you're saying but there are a couple of things to perhaps consider. First, criminal DNA testing isn't cheap, so if/when the lab determines they have a match, either via the suspect's DNA or that of a family member, they're going to stop testing. They have enough for a warrant. At that point all they need to do is swab BK.

The garbage match could have been a sibling match from one of his sisters or a maternal match from his mother. Any of those would have been sufficient to sink BK's little boat. But once they had a match of any sort--testing would have ceased. MOO

The other thing is the assumption BK was hiding his trash to hide his DNA. To me, that sounds like a stretch because BK was a graduate-level student in criminal law. He could hide his DNA all he wanted -- he knew LE could pull a match from any trash that had his family's DNA. If he were truly trying to hide his DNA, he would have hidden all his family's trash.

I'm guessing (JMOO) that BK's DNA was probably in the trash. LE just didn't need to keep hunting once they'd gotten a familial match. I'd also guess that his mother's and maybe his sisters' DNA was also in the trash, but again, we didn't hear that it was because testing ceased as soon as they had their familial match.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html

He was observed by law enforcement putting trash in the neighbors' garbage bins at 4am, so it's certainly possible they speculated they wouldn't find his dna in his own bins and stopped once they had a match to his father. It was definitely dumb for him to think they couldn't get a match from a family member, but possibly he's paranoid and not thinking clearly at that point.

Putting your trash in someone else's bin is more indicative of trying to hide it than it is of OCD behavior. Certainly each element of what he did those days could be broken down and explained another way. But when you look at the whole picture--he knows he left that sheath behind and he's wearing rubber gloves and putting his trash in the neighbor's bin--the most likely explanation is that he's trying to hide his dna. It's a lot more likely than he has OCD and was using the neighbor's bin at 4am for extra Christmas trash. As a juror, I wouldn't buy that.
JMO

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I blame Hollywood films for the elaborate 15-minute fight to the death-stabbing scenes.
Victims of violent crimes say it happened so quickly they didn't realize they had been stabbed. Also, witnesses didn't hear anything but standing close to a victim who was stabbed in public. It happens quickly often without any sound.

And also, it doesn't immediately hurt. Pain comes, but, as you said, "it happened so quickly, they didn't realize they had been stabbed." Doesn't immediately hurt, and if it's a stab that kills you, there's not enough time between death and when the pain arrives. There wouldn't have been alot of noise. There might not have been any noise at all.

 

[x_files]

And also, it doesn't immediately hurt. Pain comes, but, as you said, "it happened so quickly, they didn't realize they had been stabbed." Doesn't immediately hurt, and if it's a stab that kills you, there's not enough time between death and when the pain arrives. There wouldn't have been alot of noise. There might not have been any noise at all.

I believe the victim would be in complete shock first...but I would ask an expert on this topic.
I do, however, think if someone planned this murder they'd have the advantage of being wide awake and attacking them when off-guard hald or fully asleep.
There are accounts in other crimes of victims waking up to being stabbed in the DeAngleo case, they survived but they said it happened very quickly.

 

[Chloegirl]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html

He was observed by law enforcement putting trash in the neighbors' garbage bins at 4am, so it's certainly possible they speculated they wouldn't find his dna in his own bins and stopped once they had a match to his father. It was definitely dumb for him to think they couldn't get a match from a family member, but possibly he's paranoid and not thinking clearly at that point.

Putting your trash in someone else's bin is more indicative of trying to hide it than it is of OCD behavior. Certainly each element of what he did those days could be broken down and explained another way. But when you look at the whole picture--he knows he left that sheath behind and he's wearing rubber gloves and putting his trash in the neighbor's bin--the most likely explanation is that he's trying to hide his dna. It's a lot more likely than he has OCD and was using the neighbor's bin at 4am for extra Christmas trash. As a juror, I wouldn't buy that.
JMO

Ignoring all that, just for fun. 4am seems to be a preference for activities. Huuummm. JMOO

If you were on your way to work, taking out the trash makes sense. Otherwise, 4am trash removal is covert.

 

[Boxer]

I believe the victim would be in complete shock first...but I would ask an expert on this topic.
I do, however, think if someone planned this murder they'd have the advantage of being wide awake and attacking them when off-guard hald or fully asleep.
There are accounts in other crimes of victims waking up to being stabbed in the DeAngleo case, they survived but they said it happened very quickly.

Agree.
Ambush crimes are done in seconds not minutes.

 

[Arkay]

It had just been Christmas which usually equals extra garbage for gift wrap, boxes, food, etc. 5 people in the Kohberger household which was usually only 2 or 3 would mean lots of extra trash. An obvious and logical question would be to ask if BK was disposing of trash in the neighbors trash can because he knew the neighbors went away for Christmas and the Kohberger cans were full or if they had given permission for him to do that since their trash was not full

if he wasn’t a person of interest in a quadruple murder, with his cellular location around the area of the crime on numerous occasions, his phone off on the night of, his DNA inside of the house AKA at the scene, on a murder knife sheath, and he didn’t drive the almost the same exact car as the murderer…

IMO, given the first scenario with just an overflow of trash and a hope that the neighbors are away for Christmas and BK could innocuously stuff their garbage can with his garbage—-if I were a juror, this would not seem to me to be something which would offer me REASONABLE doubt about BK’s actions. With respect, it seems to me to be a long, long way around to normalize uncommon and suspicious behavior.

Particularly with the inclusion of the evidence we do know, as @schooling has summarized.

If I suffered from OCD, I think I’d also feel extra squeamish to touch a neighbor's garbage can.

JMO about something often discussed here for over a year.