4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

[Megnut]

There absolutely is. Only certain databases (FamilyTreeDNA and GEDmatch) allow LE to use their DNA for crime matching and the user has to opt in to allow LE to use their DNA. LE would need to prove that the relative of BK allowed the database permission to provide the use the DNA to LE for crime matching. IMO this is why the IGG does not appear on the PCA.

All the big websites (23and me, Ancestry) do not allow LE to use their DNA info for crime matching.

Exploring Investigative Genetic Genealogy - Promega Connections

Investigative Genetic Genealogy is a rapidly growing field of science that has helped solve many cold case crimes and identify human remains.

www.promegaconnections.com

IGG only uses those two databases. As indicated in the linked source.

 

[Balthazar]

Proof will be hearing testimony from the driver themselves in court on the stand during questioning.

PCA

The 2 witnesses in the home reported that everyone was in their room by 4:00am with the exception of XK who received a DoorDash delivery at 4:00am. LE found the DoorDash delivery driver who confirmed that they delivered to XK at 4:00am.

Common sense in sometimes necessary. It is common sense that they saw who they delivered to.

DoorDash makes contactless deliveries where they leave the bags on the front porch and you get a text saying it was delivered as they drive off. This way they don't have to waste time waiting for you to come to the door and you don't have to put yourself at risk by opening the door to a stranger.

 

[Ghostwheel]

This is just my own opinion and I am not a legal expert but my scrutiny of the PCA is the fact that the entire thing is an omission of the fact that they actually identified BK through a potentially (IMO likely) illegal search of a private IGG database and then worked backwards to make evidence fit the suspect.

IMO I hesitate to blindly accept that everything they say in the PCA is the full truth and there are not more facts being omitted

That’s an issue for the judge to sort out but that’s my own personal thoughts.

Totally agree that it's for a judge to sort out. Everything is weasel worded purposefully. And I would never assume the pca is the full facts, it just enough to get started towards an arrest.

But I do assume that what is in there is the facts as they know them. If Xana greeted the jitb driver at the door at 4 am or 3:56 am or 3:48 am, icing on the cake. But not necessary to pin down time if other reviews already tell that story, including what we don't know, which is a lot, imo.

Timeline was all I was asking about. IGG dbs are another issue altogether.

 

[grannygates]

IGG only uses those two databases. As indicated in the linked source.

Those are the legal databases that should be used but I’m saying that if the FBI actually used these databases and knows the information was obtained legally, they should have no issue providing that information to the defense.

The IGG information is another piece of discovery that the defense is arguing is being withheld from them. They haven’t been able to scrutinize it so it hasn’t been confirmed that it was actually obtained legally through those approved databases.

 

[jepop]

And if I may, why is there argument about the jitb bag being anywhere when the pca states

"The combination of D.M.'s statements to law enforrm€nt, reviews of forensic doumloads of records ftom B.F. and D.M.'s phone, and video of a suspect video as described below leads investigators to believe the homicides occurred between 4:00 a.m. and 4:25 am."

Initial time:after 2 am. 4 am is after 2 am.
Discussion of 3-3:30 am was that they were contacting another person, so must still be alive at that time, though could be deceased after last contact with that person. 4 am is still after the last contact.

No discrepancies.

It started as a sort of what if type thing, though it only makes sense with an underlying premise that all the phone forensics investigated and compiled by LE re proof of life are wrong. On what basis I have no idea. Autopsy results are ofcourse sealed until the trial, but defense knows them and hasn't questioned the TOD timeline. moo

 

[Ghostwheel]

DoorDash makes contactless deliveries where they leave the bags on the front porch and you get a text saying it was delivered as they drive off. This way they don't have to waste time waiting for you to come to the door and you don't have to put yourself at risk by opening the door to a stranger.

This is true. But if you see them coming, I have opened the door to my delivery driver so it doesn't sit in the cold. The point is that it might have been dropped or might have been received by Xana, but has little bearing on the timeline. The only plus would be if someone saw Xana at the drop off and knew it was her and could say she was alive at x time. Anything else is forensics we don't know about and if there is already something else pointing to the after 4 am timeline, jitb is just an extra for the trial. If it was eaten or not and by whom. It's not like anyone can pin down stomach contents to the exact minute.

 

[Balthazar]

How could the crimes happen at 2am if they ordered food after that time, seen by delivery driver, and were texting after that time and they were heard by the surviving roomies after that time?

We don't know what time XK placed her DD order. We have no evidence she was seen by the DoorDash driver. It may have been a contactless delivery. There would have been zero reason for meeting the driver since the payment is electronic via credit or debit card, SNAP or EBT card, Venmo, DD Gift Card or Cash App Pay. Cash App Pay requires that you link a debit card and fund Cash App Pay for payments - it's not a way of paying with cash in hand. Since everything is done electronically, there is no need to ever meet your DoorDash Driver or for them to meet you.

 

[katydid23]

There absolutely is. Only certain databases (FamilyTreeDNA and GEDmatch) allow LE to use their DNA for crime matching and the user has to opt in to allow LE to use their DNA. LE would need to prove that the relative of BK allowed the database permission to provide the use the DNA to LE for crime matching. IMO this is why the IGG does not appear on the PCA.

All the big websites (23and me, Ancestry) do not allow LE to use their DNA info for crime matching.

Exploring Investigative Genetic Genealogy - Promega Connections

Investigative Genetic Genealogy is a rapidly growing field of science that has helped solve many cold case crimes and identify human remains.

www.promegaconnections.com

My understanding is that they used the databases that allowed LE to search there. AT agrees with that but wants each specific individual identified so she can find out if they want to opt in or out. That seems unfair, imo.

There have been countless deceased unidentified victims who have been returned to their families because of IGG.

There have been hundreds of previously unsolved murders finally solved, bringing closure for so many families, because of IGG.

It would be a tragedy to outlaw its use. Why should a family member be able to shield another family member from being investigated for murder, if there is DNA recovered at a crime scene?

 

[Ghostwheel]

Those are the legal databases that should be used but I’m saying that if the FBI actually used these databases and knows the information was obtained legally, they should have no issue providing that information to the defense.

The IGG information is another piece of discovery that the defense is arguing is being withheld from them. They haven’t been able to scrutinize it so it hasn’t been confirmed that it was actually obtained legally through those approved databases.

Do you suppose there is a way to unseal that and not show all the innocent people on the family tree that they used to find BK? Even if through an approved DB, everyone leading up to BK is there. I know I wouldn't be happy to find my name associated with a distant unknown relative that is also an accused killer and splashed all over media.

 

[katydid23]

We don't know what time XK placed her DD order. We have no evidence she was seen by the DoorDash driver. It may have been a contactless delivery. There would have been zero reason for meeting the driver since the payment is electronic via credit or debit card, SNAP or EBT card, Venmo, DD Gift Card or Cash App Pay. Cash App Pay requires that you link a debit card and fund Cash App Pay for payments - it's not a way of paying with cash in hand. Since everything is done electronically, there is no need to ever meet your DoorDash Driver or for them to meet you.

But that does not really matter. We know enough to know that she, or someone, ordered food right before she died.

There is no way it was the killer who ordered that food, IMO. The logistics does not work.

Whether the DD SAW her or not, the food made it into the kitchen, and probably some made it into her digestive tract. I am pretty sure the autopsy will answer that for us. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Those are the legal databases that should be used but I’m saying that if the FBI actually used these databases and knows the information was obtained legally, they should have no issue providing that information to the defense.

They DID give that information to the Defense already, plus more than that.

The D is asking for info that the state does not have---which is the names of ALL the thousands of DNA profiles needed to get to the final one

The IGG information is another piece of discovery that the defense is arguing is being withheld from them. They haven’t been able to scrutinize it so it hasn’t been confirmed that it was actually obtained legally through those approved databases.

They shouldn't be allowed to see all of those individual's names, IMO, because they are irrelevant to the case. JMO

 

[Balthazar]

So, here's some the reasons the time line shifted, IMHO:

1) After Kaylee's sister Alivea got K's call records the day/days after the murders, the time had to be moved to after 3 because of documentation of Kaylee calling and texting her ex Jack many times between 2 and 2:56, with Maddie calling/texting Jack as well during that time frame--unless we are now believing that the killer used Maddie and Kaylee's phones to make those calls.

2) As for 4, that would come from the Door Dash delivery. Obviously, we don't have LE confirmation that the Door Dash person SAW and delivered the meal to Xana. But LE did confirm in the PCA that they had talked to the DD driver and confirmed the time of delivery. So unless the killer actually killed everyone between 3 (after Kaylee's last call to Jack) and 3:30 (which would be about the latest time time for JIB to receive and make order, DD driver to go pick it up and then drive to 1122 King and arrive by shortly after 4) and then the killer placed the order at 3:30 with the thought of throwing off the timeline and put in the directions that the order was to just be dropped at the door.....then there isn't much reason to question the after 4 am timeline. I suppose the killer could have done some of the murders between 3 and 3:30, paused to set up the JIB order, then gone and killed the other 2...but that's cutting it close to then get out before the JIB order arrives around 4.

3) So, the JIB bag that is seen in the kitchen photo might not be the JIB order from that night. But if you are suggesting that the DD driver just dropped off the order without seeing Xana, and that allows for everyone to be killed before 4.....then you would expect that the JIB order would still be outside--and noted in the PCA--and found there the next morning.

We don't know if XK ever got the JIB order or not. For all we know it might have sat by the front door until the next morning when Ethan's friend Hunter arrived and he may have picked it up and brought it into the kitchen.

 

[katydid23]

You had said "I don't think BK could have ordered it in Xana's name on Door Dash."

When I said that, I was thinking of people who were saying BK ordered it from his car earlier, or something like that. in order to be a fake delivery guy...I was saying that would not seem possible.

All I was saying was that yes, he could have. I order on my Ds phone/account all the time, so not impossible if you have access to the phone. But I agree that I don't think he did. There is a difference between can't do something and likely didn't do something and I was making that distinction.

True

 

[grannygates]

Do you suppose there is a way to unseal that and not show all the innocent people on the family tree that they used to find BK? Even if through an approved DB, everyone leading up to BK is there. I know I wouldn't be happy to find my name associated with a distant unknown relative that is also an accused killer and splashed all over media.

The public and media doesn’t need to see it but the defense team should. This is the way they found the suspect so the process should be absolutely transparent to avoid any argument to validity.

It’s only fair that the defense should see everything regarding the methods behind the search, the search log, input information, all of the results. The defense should be allowed to see every single person in the database that came back as a possible or close match to the DNA, as the prosecution has that information as well and we want a fair trial.

 

[jepop]

Those are the legal databases that should be used but I’m saying that if the FBI actually used these databases and knows the information was obtained legally, they should have no issue providing that information to the defense.

The IGG information is another piece of discovery that the defense is arguing is being withheld from them. They haven’t been able to scrutinize it so it hasn’t been confirmed that it was actually obtained legally through those approved databases.

This is incorrect. We don't know what the defense is claiming re this latest IGG motion to compel cos sealing. The Judge ruled in favour of the defense last December and overrode state's request for a protective order. The state provided all IGG they had at that time to court including some material received from fbi to do with the family tree stuff. Court assessed and gave defense access with some conditions. moo but see link below.

State has responded to this latest IGG motion to compel saying what is being asked for was previously provided. Both sides stipulate that the upcoming hearing be sealed. See link relatively recent docs from this month and late April.``

Scroll down to Kohberger and you'll find docs listed in chronological order. Protective order motion is somewhere around mid 2023 and that's a good place to start imo. From there you can follow the story as to responses leading up to D getting access to IGG materials in December. moo

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

 

[grannygates]

This is incorrect. We don't know what the defense is claiming re this latest IGG motion to compel cos sealing. The Judge ruled in favour of the defense last December and overrode state's request for a protective order. The state provided all IGG they had at that time to court including some material received from fbi to do with the family tree stuff. Court assessed and gave defense access with some conditions. moo but see link below.

State has responded to this latest IGG motion to compel saying what is being asked for was previously provided. Both sides stipulate that the upcoming hearing be sealed. See link relatively recent docs from this month and late April.``

Scroll down to Kohberger and you'll find docs listed in chronological order. Protective order motion is somewhere around mid 2023 and that's a good place to start imo. From there you can follow the story as to responses leading up to D getting access to IGG materials in December. moo

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

What is incorrect ? I said that they should both be given all of the results from the IGG as well as the search logs with input information. That’s my opinion of what I think is fair. I’m not asserting to know what evidence either party has in their possession.

 

[Cool Cats]

DoorDash makes contactless deliveries where they leave the bags on the front porch and you get a text saying it was delivered as they drive off. This way they don't have to waste time waiting for you to come to the door and you don't have to put yourself at risk by opening the door to a stranger.

Yup. It will be interesting to hear what the DD driver says at trial.

AT is very agressive and she could easily use Pullman as BK's alibi if she could show the murders happened earlier.

Unfortunately for BK she is stuck in that 4:00am to 4:25am murder window. The time that corresponds to a car on King Rd matching his car.

2 Cents

 

[jepop]

What is incorrect ? I said that they should both be given all of the results from the IGG as well as the search logs with input information. That’s my opinion of what I think is fair. I’m not asserting to know what evidence either party has in their possession.

WAs referring to this

They haven’t been able to scrutinize it

I mistakenly read that as a statement of fact and not an opinion so apologies for that. I still think it's useful to have a squiz at the court docs if you haven't done so and/or if you want to. Just my opinion ofcourse

 

[Cool Cats]

I thought it was DM , one of the surviving roommates, that said she heard KC somewhere up the stairs say, someone's here? Or have I got that all wrong?

Yes, I was thinking something else but it is possible that DM heard a victim before they were murdered which helps prove the PCA timeline....2 cents

 

[grannygates]

WAs referring to this

I mistakenly read that as a statement of fact and not an opinion so apologies for that. I still think it's useful to have a squiz at the court docs if you haven't done so and/or if you want to. Just my opinion ofcourse

Oh! You’re right. My wording on that sentence was improper - I apologize for that. I shouldn’t have made it sound like a fact when it was my opinion only.