48 Hours and Paradise Lost; West Memphis Three

I must admit that while it was recording and I walked past thru the room...I nodded and said "Uh huh" out loud when Lorri & Damien together were interviewed...knowing that I couldn't watch it until <whenever>...I want to watch it un-interrupted (whenever that will be)... ;)

This is a true love story...the power of love, not "just" Lorri, but all the supporters...and it's an activist story...

This could happen to almost anyone...just for being "different" or otherwise "disadvantaged"...very, very, very scary.
 
Thank you. I agree about 48 hours. they go for ratings that I understand. I didn't see too much truth in the MacDonald story they presented or the Darlie Routier story. That's why I'm reluctant to believe this piece

Now, Now, Cam, Are you really serious about what you just stated "they go for ratings that I understand" Come on my friend, do you TRULY believe that these men are guilty??? This one I will 100% debate you about way over the Darlie trial? In all honest, what brings you to the conclusion of their guilt?? Take Care, Love Always, Ann :floorlaugh::great::fence::maddening::twocents::twocents:
 
I just rewatched the first Paradise Lost .From the evidence presented I would have voted not quilty. I felt Damian came across as an intelligent very well read young man. I didn't see anything wierd or spooky about him at all. Noticed he spent alot of time combing his hair etc. My impression of him was of a quiet, intelligent young man who had some effiminate qualities. No way he would commit murder and get blood on himself. And, his orginal defense team was on the right track. The boys were killed somewhere else and brought to the dump site. The clothing removal and the hogtying were part of staging the scene. Now, who killed them/??????
 
I just rewatched the first Paradise Lost .From the evidence presented I would have voted not quilty. I felt Damian came across as an intelligent very well read young man. I didn't see anything wierd or spooky about him at all. Noticed he spent alot of time combing his hair etc. My impression of him was of a quiet, intelligent young man who had some effiminate qualities. No way he would commit murder and get blood on himself. And, his orginal defense team was on the right track. The boys were killed somewhere else and brought to the dump site. The clothing removal and the hogtying were part of staging the scene. Now, who killed them/??????

One interesting thing is that the police originally believed that the ditch was a dump site and not the scene of the crime. However, when Jessie came out with his fictional story, it was all they had to link Damien to the crime. So, the police latched on to the ditch as the murder scene and tried to make the evidence fit their theory instead of properly investigating the crime and making a theory to fit the evidence.

As to who killed the boys, have you read or heard of "The Manhole Theory?" It is a theory of how this crime occurred which was developed after extensive research and consultation with many experts by a poster called "Paid" on the Blackboard.

http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php?board=59.0

I invite you to read it. IMO, this poster has solved this crime. All of his speculations dovetail with the evidence and information from the scene. This theory makes much more sense than anything Jessie or the WMPD have said, and, until a theory comes along that makes even better sense, I will continue to believe that this theory is what happened.
 
I was wondering does anyone know what ever became of the Documentary May Berg was shootong about the case? I heard she worked closely with Amanda Hobbs? But then I didn't hear anything more about it...
 
I was wondering does anyone know what ever became of the Documentary May Berg was shootong about the case? I heard she worked closely with Amanda Hobbs? But then I didn't hear anything more about it...

Do you mean Amy Berg? If so, I've heard that she's still working on it. Sorry, but I don't know any more than that.
 
I was wondering does anyone know what ever became of the Documentary May Berg was shootong about the case? I heard she worked closely with Amanda Hobbs? But then I didn't hear anything more about it...
Oh goodie. Let&#8217;s discuss Amanda Hobb&#8217;s hypnosis as a means of helping her "recall" things.

The first problem with hypnosis is suggestibility. Ainslie Meares, President of the International Society for Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, wrote in Hypnosis in Modern Medicine: In our everyday clinical practice there is no doubt that the increased suggestibility is the most conspicuous feature of the hypnotized patient. We offer the suggestion; the patient carries it out. The majority of psychiatrists will quickly answer that hypnosis is a state of increased suggestibility. (p. 392)

George H. Estabrooks, author of the book Hypnotism stated: The subject will accept any suggestion the operator gives, within certain limits . (New York, E. P. Dutton & Company, 1957, p. 24)

Dr. Jay Katz, Professor (Adjunct) of Law and Psychiatry at Yale University and Attending Psychiatrist at the Yale New Haven Medical Center, gave a sworn affidavit to the Clay Shaw defense team on the dangers of testimony obtained under hypnosis. What he had to say was consistent with all the new research on hypnotism including that found in "Hypnotically Induced Testimony" by Martin T. Orne, David A. Soskis, David F. Dinges, and Emily Carota Orne, in Gary L. Wells and Elizabeth F. Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony: Psychological Perspectives (Cambridge University Press, 1984).

Dr. Katz stated by allowing the hypnotist to define what is to be experienced, the hypnotized individual foregoes evaluation both of the nature of the suggestion and his or her reaction to it. Given a suggestion that is acceptable, subjects will attempt to respond without concern for whether the suggestion is logical or meaningful. Their increased willingness to accept suggestions in hypnosis inevitably requires that for the time they suspend critical judgment." (p. 174)

Following the hypnotic induction, the subject's attention is intensely focused on the hypnotist, and there is an increased tendency to please the hypnotist and to comply with both explicit and implicit demands of the hypnotist. (p. 175) Sometimes hypnotized subjects can be sensitive to even very subtle suggestions. Particularly interesting things happen during hypnotic "regression" when subjects are told to mentally return to an earlier time.

In one funny famous experiment, subjects were age regressed to their fourth birthday. Shockingly, these subjects accurately were able to remember the day of the week in 69% of the cases. When several different laboratories tried to replicate the finding of this study, they were unable to replicate them. It was found that the hypnotist in the first study asked subjects when regressed, "Was it Monday? Was it Tuesday? Was it Wednesday?" Subjects were asked to stop the researcher when the correct day was reached. However, the researcher had a perpetual calendar in front of him when asking the questions, and he knew what the right answer was. The notion that subjects were simply responding to subtle suggestions from the researcher was validated when different researchers went out and asked numerous intelligent 4-year-old children the day of the week. None of them knew. If real 4-year-olds didn&#8217;t know what day of the week it was, adults "regressed" to the age of four years wouldn&#8217;t know what day of the week their birthday occurred. (Orne, et al., pp. 181-182)

The second problem with hypnosis is confabulation. The hypnotic suggestion to relive a past event, when accompanied by questions about specific details, puts pressure on the subject to provide information for which actual memories may not be available. This situation may jog the subject's memory and produce some increased recall, but it will also cause the subject to fill in details that are plausible but not really memories. "Memory" can be created in hypnosis where none existed before, and the witness's memory may be irreversibly contaminated. (p. 181)

False memories are the third problem with hypnosis. Anything visualized during hypnosis remains in the memory and may come to be experienced by the witness as a real memories.

One interesting experiment asked hypnotized subjects whether they had, early one morning, been awakened by a loud noise. It had been determined that all slept soundly through the night in question. But many of the subjects accepted the suggestion, and reported that they did indeed hear some such noise. And strikingly, after being awakened from hypnosis, they continued to INSIST that they had heard a loud noise. (p. 191) Orne, et al. concluded: "Thus, the memories created by the leading question in hypnosis were experienced as if they were preexisting recollections that were unrelated to the hypnotic experience." (p. 191)

A fourth problem with using hypnosis is increased post-hypnotic certainty. Witnesses who tell their story with confidence and self-assurance are more likely to be believed by juries. Witnesses who have rehearsed their testimony under hypnosis are likely to be more confident on the stand. Unfortunately, witnesses under hypnosis will typically produce both an increase in accurately recalled details and an increase in inaccurate information resulting from suggestion, false memories, or confabulation. (p. 176)

When a crime witness is instructed to guess about the details of an event, these guesses not only tend to be reported as part of the original memory, but the witness may later be very confident about their accuracy. Similarly, witnesses who are briefed (before testifying) about former recollections become more confident of these recollections, especially when they were originally inaccurate. (p. 193) The more the altered memories are reported, the more firmly established they become to the witness and the more difficult they become to challenge under cross-examination.

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/history/orne/orneetal1979ijceh85102.html

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hypnosis.htm

Orne, M. T., Hilgard, E. R., Spiegel, H., Spiegel, D., Crawford, H.J., Evans, F. J., Orne, E. C., & Frischholz, E. J. The relation between the Hypnotic Induction Profile and the Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scales, Forms A and C. International Journal of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, 1979, 27, 85-102.
 
I don't trust the hypnosis thing, either, and I don't know very many supporters who do. IMO, it's pseudo-science. If the McMartin trial taught us anything it taught us just how highly susceptible children are.

I haven't seen any results from Amanda's hypnosis, but I do recall seeing an article stating that TH was "on edge" when there was talk of hypnotizing her. It's an old article, but I'll see if I can find a link. IMO, if he was "on edge," it wasn't necessarily because she might remember anything about the murder but because she might remember something about the sexual abuse she is said to have received at his hands.

I know that, for now at least, she says that her daddy didn't kill her step brother. However, she was only four years old at the time of the murders, and I'm sure that she was traumatized by the whole situation to boot. Sorry, but hypnosis might help one lose weight or stop smoking or even uncover some childhood trauma (if properly done), but I don't consider it to be a proper investigative tool when a homicide is involved. Hypnosis, by its very nature, requires the implantation of memories, and too often those can be false memories IMO.

ETA: Found it. Here's the pertinent part of the article:

"Media bombardment

Hobbs said he still remains in contact with his former wife. Intense
media coverage and bombardment from West Memphis Three supporters
prompted his ex-wife&#8217;s most recent accusations, Hobbs said.

The two have a daughter, Amanda, and grandchildren, he said. Amanda
has been talking with filmmakers and investigators working to free
Echols and has been put under hypnosis, Hobbs said.

'It&#8217;s as low-down as it can be,' Hobbs said. 'That Lorri Davis is behind this.'

Pressed further, Hobbs said he fears hypnosis might lead his daughter
to conjure a false memory that places her and him at the crime scene
with the dead boys.

'It&#8217;s kind of keeping me on the edge,' he said.

Davis said she heard Amanda underwent hypnosis but denied funding it.

Hobbs said the jailed men are guilty and &#8220;can rot in hell as far as
I&#8217;m concerned.&#8221;

Echols stopped short of accusing Hobbs. 'I&#8217;m hesitant to put the
finger on anyone because of what I&#8217;ve been through,' he said. Asked
again, Echols said 'I feel the two men whose DNA was found at the
scene are the most likely suspects.'&#8221;

Here's a link to the entire article:

http://wm3org.typepad.com/blog/2010/07/boys-mother-recalls-fateful-day-part-4-2.html
 
ed.&#8221;
Echols said 'I feel the two men whose DNA was found at the
scene are the most likely suspects.'&#8221;
Shortened for brevity-

That's funny!

About 1.5% of the population could be the source of the ligature hair. The Echols defense tested another hair taken from a tree stump at the crime scene. That DNA test narrowed the possible sources of that hair to about 7% of the population.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/press_conference.html
 
Shortened for brevity-

That's funny!

About 1.5% of the population could be the source of the ligature hair. The Echols defense tested another hair taken from a tree stump at the crime scene. That DNA test narrowed the possible sources of that hair to about 7% of the population.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/press_conference.html

And how many of that 1.5% of the population was in the Robin Hood Hills and Blue Beacon Woods (as TH admits he was) on the afternoon and evening of May 5, 1993? How about the 7% of the population that could be the source of the tree stump hair? We have to look at opportunity to place the hair at the discovery site as well as the probability of whose hair it is.

Mathematically, to properly find the probability of the hair belonging to one particular individual, you would need to create a "sample space" containing all possible donors. The probability that any one in that sample space is the donor (source) of the hair would be one divided by the number of people in the sample space. The number of people in the sample space would be represented by the number of people with a common maternal ancestor with TH who were in the area at the time.
 
Shortened for brevity-

That's funny!

About 1.5% of the population could be the source of the ligature hair. The Echols defense tested another hair taken from a tree stump at the crime scene. That DNA test narrowed the possible sources of that hair to about 7% of the population.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/press_conference.html

What percentage of the population owned clothes with fibres consistent with the fibres produced at trial by the prosecution?

They were fibres from mass produced garments, so I don't really expect you to be able to answer that question. :crazy:
 
Last nite on Carson Daly (don't watch it but caught this), he interviewed both filmmakers, and a mini-recap of both "Paradise Lost" films was given with some brief footage shown (very little audio except some music).

It was quite interesting to hear them tell about how they thought they were going down there to make a documentary of a case about 3 crazy teenagers who had murdered 3 8-year-olds in a satanic ritual...and then what it was like finding out it was really a case of innocent but found guilty. (Especially that last part was worded much more eloquently, though.)

They were very modest about the films having sparked a support movement for the WM3 that resulted in their Alford plea and being released from prison (and for Damien, death row).

There was an eloquent quote from Damien (still in white prison uniform) that said if it hadn't been for the films, he would have just been a memory.

It was a brief segment, but I wish I had recorded it.
 
Yeah, it seems that I recently read something too about how the movie changed public opinion. I think they even got a Public Relations firm to help with that. You know the kind who tries to clean up the names like Haliburton or Monsanto.

Funny how all that money was spent to make it appear they were innocent, but then they plea guilty, but still claim they have evidence to clear their names.

I guess the PR and movie really worked.
 
I shouldn't have to point this out, but some people might not realize it. In a "normal" guilty plea, one of the conditions of the judge accepting the plea is that the defendant gives a detailed explanation of the particulars of the crime. That didn't happen in this case because this was not a "normal" plea deal. It was an Alford Plea in which the defendant can maintain his innocence while pleading guilty because a guilty plea is in his/her best interest as the State has enough evidence that they could be found guilty at trial.

Notice, it says "could" not "would." This is a great distinction. Obviously, based on the information presented at the trials, two juries (erroneously) found them guilty. It is entirely understandable that they wouldn't want to trust the State of Arkansas again. The State of Arkansas had already robbed them of over eighteen years of their lives. Why give them one second more?

If it took the films to allow people to wake up about this case, bravo for the films! Unfortunately, there are too many Judge Burnetts in this world today. Thankfully, there are also Berlingers and Sinofskys to point out the corruption - and IMO there was corruption involved in this case.
 
There was a 'private' meeting right before the public meeting. They could have done it then. They did in fact admit they were guilty of committing the murders.

Why do you think they stripped them nude and tied them up if they did not rape them?
 
There was a 'private' meeting right before the public meeting. They could have done it then. They did in fact admit they were guilty of committing the murders.

Why do you think they stripped them nude and tied them up if they did not rape them?

What are you saying was done during the "private" meeting? I recently read that it was more or less a dress rehearsal for the "public" meeting so everyone would understand what was happening. They made an Alford Plea in which they plead guilty while maintaining their innocence. It's not the same as a normal guilty plea, as I pointed out before.

I believe that the boys were stripped because the real killer went back to move the bodies and to dress one of them to agree with what his mother said he was wearing. When the killer couldn't get jeans on the body, he stripped all the boys so that one wouldn't be "different" than the rest and therefore point to the killer. Also, even that paragon of forensic acumen, Peretti, admitted that there was no evidence of sodomy.
 
What are you saying was done during the "private" meeting? I recently read that it was more or less a dress rehearsal for the "public" meeting so everyone would understand what was happening. They made an Alford Plea in which they plead guilty while maintaining their innocence. It's not the same as a normal guilty plea, as I pointed out before.

I believe that the boys were stripped because the real killer went back to move the bodies and to dress one of them to agree with what his mother said he was wearing. When the killer couldn't get jeans on the body, he stripped all the boys so that one wouldn't be "different" than the rest and therefore point to the killer. Also, even that paragon of forensic acumen, Peretti, admitted that there was no evidence of sodomy.

BBM

I understand what kind of plea they gave. Many of the convicted who have an opportunity for a new trial will do that. In case you have any doubt of that happening in other cases just look at the news and you can compare it to this case.

As far as what you said about the 'real killer', they already have the real killers and they just plead guilty.

If there was no rape or sodomy why do you think they were naked? There must have been a reason for it. And yes you are correct no DNA on those bodies submerged for hour in the water.

You know DNA is a new thing for this case and it's still a technology that continues to be improved. After millions of dollars the defense still does not have DNA to prove that the three convicted are innocent of committing the crime.

There is more than DNA to this case, there are witnesses who saw and heard, fiber evidence, confessions from all three.

There are some brand new witnesses too that were never heard from before until recently. Do you think that they may have decided that they want a part in the MOVIE too? Sounds like it to me. I guess we'll wait to see the movie and if they appear then we'll know why...
 
There has been DNA found at the scene. It belongs to the victims, Terry Hobbs, David Jacoby and two or three as yet unidentified males. None of the DNA found at the scene (or any other physical evidence, for that matter) belongs to any of the WMFree.

If the water washed away the DNA, why did it leave the DNA that was left and only wash away the DNA of the WMFree? That must've been some pretty selective water!

The "new witnesses" to which you refer didn't know at the time of the murders that TH was claiming no contact with the boys on May 5, 1993. Once they learned of his denial of contact, they came forward.

A killer has been walking free for over 18 years. However, it is my hope and prayer that he will soon be where he belongs - behind bars.
 
There has been DNA found at the scene. It belongs to the victims, Terry Hobbs, David Jacoby and two or three as yet unidentified males. None of the DNA found at the scene (or any other physical evidence, for that matter) belongs to any of the WMFree.

If the water washed away the DNA, why did it leave the DNA that was left and only wash away the DNA of the WMFree? That must've been some pretty selective water!

The "new witnesses" to which you refer didn't know at the time of the murders that TH was claiming no contact with the boys on May 5, 1993. Once they learned of his denial of contact, they came forward.

A killer has been walking free for over 18 years. However, it is my hope and prayer that he will soon be where he belongs - behind bars.


The defense has picked only certain things to test. When will they test ALL of the evidence?

As far as the hair, it was not conclusive it belongs to anyone including the 3-convicted.

Do you think that if the evidence points toward the 3-convicted that we will ever hear about that?

Then their cover will be blown and they won't be gettin' all those funds and donations from you'uns.
 

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