Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #176

[girlhasnoname]

Not sure, but why would someone else walk back McLeland’s statement? Surely he could do that for himself.

Regardless, Tobe Leazenby stated in his deposition that he believed at least two people were involved. Strange (or not), Tony Liggett was adamant during his deposition, the day prior to Leazenby’s, that he believed it was done by only one person, RA. However, during Leazenby’s deposition he was asked if anyone else on the force shared his belief that more than one person was involved in the murders and he answered yes, that Tony Liggett shared his belief and they often spoke of it privately. Interesting. Either Leazenby is lying about Liggett under oath or Liggett lied under oath in his deposition. Awkward. (Franks Memorandum pg 43, 44)

I would hazard a guess that there are other LE that believe this was done by more than one person. It appears NMcL was merely echoing that sentiment. JMHO

Yes, according to the infamous 136 page script/memo in support of Franks. Perhaps Liggett believed it was one originally, and later over the course of a 6 year investigation, further or new evidence led him to believe it might have been 2?

That could have easily gotten confused or 'footnoted' in the Defense depositions. Did they ask or footnote the time during the investigation that Liggett believed this? They knew of a discrepancy, if true, (because Liggett went first), so did they drill Leazenby on that? When did Liggett say that, when did it change? Any decent Defense attorney would have.

Lots of investigators during the entirety of this case mean lots of opinions. Those who were removed from the case may have their own bias, hurt feelings or whatever reasons to be critical of other LE. It happens on a lot on high profile cases.

I believe we'll get more clarification around this during the Defenses' Contempt hearing in March which will be beneficial to everyone. IMO

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

No earthly idea why I did this, but I suppose I wanted to clarify a few things that have been discussed about the FM, so I wanted to point out certain things that I found interesting:

1)

BH clocked in and clocked out of work on the day of the murders. It seems as though 2:45 PM is the approximate time that he finished his shift.

2)

His truck was apparently seen on video coming and going.

3)

BH place of employment was more than 30 miles from Delphi.

It would be pretty ridiculous to think that Holder clocked out @2:45, walked to his truck, proceeded to drive AND park ( at least 30 minutes on the road) get to the crime scene no sooner than 3:25 ( remember, reports state that everything was OVER BY 3:30PM) committed a murder and proceeded to stage it within 5 minutes, wouldn't it???




4)


EF is interviewed. Page 94. Provides alibi of being at home on day of murders. This interview was videoed per Footnote 126.

5)

On page 96 of the FM Phone records show EF's phone in Rushville from 10:30 am until 7:30 pm.

6

EF did willingly give a DNA sample.



Apart from the FM, for the holdout die hard people that still suspect RL is the killer... can we agree that even the defense attorneys don't suspect that RL had any involvement? If they DID I have NO DOUBT they would throw his name out there in a hot second. I mean, RL is deceased, he would be an easy target.

Anyway, this is what happens when Raven has a slow start to the weekend.

I start looking at all sorts of things that don't seem logical. Like pretty much everyone here, justice for the girls and their families are my biggest hope.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

Anyone here get a chance to watch Crime Nation? If so, care to share your thoughts? Or maybe no one is interested in watching it, anyway, TIA?

I only got to see the clip of Ron Logan's girlfriend. Like so many people she thought she knew who bridge guy was too, by the still picture and voice. I think so many people who followed this case and provided tips thought they had seen bridge guy or knew the voice from Liberty German's phone video. I know I did. I was convinced I had seen bridge guy too.

If the video surveillance from the Hoosier Harveststore is good video and they have Richard Allens's license plate from his 2016 Ford Focus or can identify his car from some other unique feature(maybe blacked out wheels?) then I think it is going to be difficult to refute that evidence of him arriving at the old CPS building. However, if it is just grainy video where you cannot even tell the make and model of the car, then I think there is going to be a lot of reasonable doubt in this case.

I think the defense wants this case because there is so much reasonable doubt you can put forth. You could have Ron Logan's girlfriend testify. You could have the deputy who filed the lawsuit against Carroll County Sheriff testify. You could show the second April 2019 news conference where police insist the sketch they put out is the face of the killer. You could question, like I have, why no one saw the "bridge guy" walking back to his car along 300 N, especially with a PCA that claims to have a witness.

I do not think criminals know where all video surveillance cameras are either. How would Richard Allen know that private residences did not have a doorbell camera or some other surveillance camera? How would Richard Allen know any cars that passed by did not have a dash camera? But there is always the possibility he walked back the same way he came, down the Monon High Bridge trail back to his car and somehow was not seen wet and muddy by any of the people on the trail. Maybe he got lucky and there was no one on the entire trail length on the way back to his car at the old CPS? That seemed unlikely to me as by that time the flannel shirt guy and Liberty German's father had arrived there by then.

I think our own bias about a case can cause us to think the way we do(especially if we think like Ron Logan's girlfriend that we know who bridge guy is too). Also, I want to make it clear that I do not think Ron Logan had anything to do with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but I can understand why his former girlfriend thinks he did.

 

[susiQ]

I think our own bias about a case can cause us to think the way we do(especially if we think like Ron Logan's girlfriend that we know who bridge guy is too). Also, I want to make it clear that I do not think Ron Logan had anything to do with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but I can understand why his former girlfriend thinks he did.

RSBM
I agree. I don’t think RL was involved either, although I can imagine why his girlfriend thought so. Was he a nice man? Absolutely not to his girlfriend, for sure. There’s absolutely no excuse for treating someone in that manner. But there are many abusive husbands/partners out there that do not go out and murder to innocent girls on a whim in the manner in which they were. JMHO

 

[Appletreefarm35]

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[girlhasnoname]

I only got to see the clip of Ron Logan's girlfriend. Like so many people she thought she knew who bridge guy was too, by the still picture and voice. I think so many people who followed this case and provided tips thought they had seen bridge guy or knew the voice from Liberty German's phone video. I know I did. I was convinced I had seen bridge guy too.

If the video surveillance from the Hoosier Harveststore is good video and they have Richard Allens's license plate from his 2016 Ford Focus or can identify his car from some other unique feature(maybe blacked out wheels?) then I think it is going to be difficult to refute that evidence of him arriving at the old CPS building. However, if it is just grainy video where you cannot even tell the make and model of the car, then I think there is going to be a lot of reasonable doubt in this case.

I think the defense wants this case because there is so much reasonable doubt you can put forth. You could have Ron Logan's girlfriend testify. You could have the deputy who filed the lawsuit against Carroll County Sheriff testify. You could show the second April 2019 news conference where police insist the sketch they put out is the face of the killer. You could question, like I have, why no one saw the "bridge guy" walking back to his car along 300 N, especially with a PCA that claims to have a witness.

I do not think criminals know where all video surveillance cameras are either. How would Richard Allen know that private residences did not have a doorbell camera or some other surveillance camera? How would Richard Allen know any cars that passed by did not have a dash camera? But there is always the possibility he walked back the same way he came, down the Monon High Bridge trail back to his car and somehow was not seen wet and muddy by any of the people on the trail. Maybe he got lucky and there was no one on the entire trail length on the way back to his car at the old CPS? That seemed unlikely to me as by that time the flannel shirt guy and Liberty German's father had arrived there by then.

I think our own bias about a case can cause us to think the way we do(especially if we think like Ron Logan's girlfriend that we know who bridge guy is too). Also, I want to make it clear that I do not think Ron Logan had anything to do with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but I can understand why his former girlfriend thinks he did.

All this pretrial nonsense and chatter is nothing but a toxic tactic created <modsnip> to draw attention from the real evidence regarding Defendant RA, IMO.

I think when you can look at the totality (and there will be a lot more revealed by the State at trial no doubt) you will be able to discount the likelihood of it being anyone other than RA, piece by gruesome piece, BARD. I can do it as a lay person now just by knowing he places himself there at the scene, at the time, in the consistent clothing, seen by witnesses, looking and sounding just like BG on a video made by Libby, an actual victim, owning a not so common style gun and bullets matching the ejector marks on the one found between the bodies, making 5 confessions on a recorded jail line and so on.

The Defense spread the salacious Memo to support Franks to exactly cast doubt on a jury pool because the evidence is so damning, the Hail Mary pass I called it the morning it came out IMO.

Jurors are not stupid and take their jobs very seriously. They will listen to all of the evidence and make a decision based on facts, not rumors, wild theories and innuendo.

Thank goodness because this is going to be one heartbreaking trial to have to sit on as a juror IMO. At least they will be selected and bused in from Allen County vs CC.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

“owning a not so common style gun”

RSBM

About his “owning a not so common style gun”:

SIG SAUER P365 & P320 Ranked Most Popular Handguns in America

SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the SIG P365 and SIG P320 were the best-selling products across all firearms in 2023 to become the most popular handguns in America.

www.sigsauer.com

Pretty common and popular.

 

[girlhasnoname]

RSBM

About his “owning a not so common style gun”:

SIG SAUER P365 & P320 Ranked Most Popular Handguns in America

SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the SIG P365 and SIG P320 were the best-selling products across all firearms in 2023 to become the most popular handguns in America.

www.sigsauer.com

Pretty common and popular.

Wrong model it was a "Sig Sauer, Model P226, .40-caliber pistol," and in 2017 not 2023.

Delphi murders: What the unsealed documents reveal and the questions that remain

 

[WildHuncher]

RSBM

About his “owning a not so common style gun”:

SIG SAUER P365 & P320 Ranked Most Popular Handguns in America

SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the SIG P365 and SIG P320 were the best-selling products across all firearms in 2023 to become the most popular handguns in America.

www.sigsauer.com

Pretty common and popular.

Only the 320 has an option for .40 cal. (It has several other options including 9mm and .45 ACP.). The 365 comes in 9mm and .380. At any rate, RA’s was the P226.

SIG Sauer P320 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SIG Sauer P365 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

FWIW:

The 5 Best-Selling Handguns of 2017 | The Motley Fool

Even though sales across the industry are down, some models are still proving extra popular with gun buyers.

www.fool.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

If I was on the jury, the only significance in the kind of gun RA owned is that it used a .40 cartridge.

Since he claimed he was never on RL's land nor had he ever loaned his gun to anyone else, I'd want to know if there had been anyone else on that property whose gun used a .40 cartridge.

 

[Emma Peel]

Homework prep for March 18th hearing re: State's Contempt motion.

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-contempt-procedure-benchcard.pdf

 

[somequestions]

All this pretrial nonsense and chatter is nothing but a toxic tactic created <modsnip> to draw attention from the real evidence regarding Defendant RA, IMO.

I think when you can look at the totality (and there will be a lot more revealed by the State at trial no doubt) you will be able to discount the likelihood of it being anyone other than RA, piece by gruesome piece, BARD. I can do it as a lay person now just by knowing he places himself there at the scene, at the time, in the consistent clothing, seen by witnesses, looking and sounding just like BG on a video made by Libby, an actual victim, owning a not so common style gun and bullets matching the ejector marks on the one found between the bodies, making 5 confessions on a recorded jail line and so on.

The Defense spread the salacious Memo to support Franks to exactly cast doubt on a jury pool because the evidence is so damning, the Hail Mary pass I called it the morning it came out IMO.

Jurors are not stupid and take their jobs very seriously. They will listen to all of the evidence and make a decision based on facts, not rumors, wild theories and innuendo.

Thank goodness because this is going to be one heartbreaking trial to have to sit on as a juror IMO. At least they will be selected and bused in from Allen County vs CC.

MOO

I agree that if anything in the confessions is information that only the killer would know, then the jury will discount everything else and convict him. The prosecution got fortunate that he made confessions about the crime after he was arrested.

In my opinion, the biggest piece of solid evidence the prosecution has against Richard Allen is the unspent cartridge found at the crime scene that forensic analysis says was cycled through his gun. The witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1, BB, is concerning because how does a sketch with a young face and curly hair end up looking like the real suspect, Richard Allen?

Also, if the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance video clearly shows Richard Allen's black 2016 Ford Focus arriving at around 1:30pm, that will be damaging at trial especially if he claims that he was only there from 12 to 1:30pm.

Richard Allen certainly got lucky no one saw him walk back to his car at the old CPS building after the crime. Police had to have asked witnesses on the trail between 2:13 and 4pm whether any of the people they saw matched the description of bridge guy and whether or not any of those people had wet and muddy pants and shoes? I think someone going in the water in February would be something that people would alert to about a person's clothing.

As for whether or not Richard Allen is the killer, that is something only he knows for sure.

 

[Betty P]

Yes, according to the infamous 136 page script/memo in support of Franks. Perhaps Liggett believed it was one originally, and later over the course of a 6 year investigation, further or new evidence led him to believe it might have been 2?

That could have easily gotten confused or 'footnoted' in the Defense depositions. Did they ask or footnote the time during the investigation that Liggett believed this? They knew of a discrepancy, if true, (because Liggett went first), so did they drill Leazenby on that? When did Liggett say that, when did it change? Any decent Defense attorney would have.

Lots of investigators during the entirety of this case mean lots of opinions. Those who were removed from the case may have their own bias, hurt feelings or whatever reasons to be critical of other LE. It happens on a lot on high profile cases.

I believe we'll get more clarification around this during the Defenses' Contempt hearing in March which will be beneficial to everyone. IMO

MOO

Since the trial hasn't begun, though, there's no opportunity yet for anyone to clear up the unclear accusations. That was actually the goal of the defense team. The prosecution and witnesses can't reply in the news media. They have to wait until the trial begins.

As for lack of eyewitnesses seeing RA returning to his car bloodied and muddied, he was lucky in that. But he was also unlucky that he was caught on video driving his car away from the trail area at that exact time.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I agree that if anything in the confessions is information that only the killer would know, then the jury will discount everything else and convict him. The prosecution got fortunate that he made confessions about the crime after he was arrested.

In my opinion, the biggest piece of solid evidence the prosecution has against Richard Allen is the unspent cartridge found at the crime scene that forensic analysis says was cycled through his gun. The witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1, BB, is concerning because how does a sketch with a young face and curly hair end up looking like the real suspect, Richard Allen?

Also, if the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance video clearly shows Richard Allen's black 2016 Ford Focus arriving at around 1:30pm, that will be damaging at trial especially if he claims that he was only there from 12 to 1:30pm.

Richard Allen certainly got lucky no one saw him walk back to his car at the old CPS building after the crime. Police had to have asked witnesses on the trail between 2:13 and 4pm whether any of the people they saw matched the description of bridge guy and whether or not any of those people had wet and muddy pants and shoes? I think someone going in the water in February would be something that people would alert to about a person's clothing.

As for whether or not Richard Allen is the killer, that is something only he knows for sure.

A witness did see a a man matching RA’s description wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans walking in the direction of his car. She described him as muddy and bloody and as though he had been in a fight per the PCA.
He was walking west on 300 N
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[M. Kay]

The witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1, BB, is concerning because how does a sketch with a young face and curly hair end up looking like the real suspect, Richard Allen?

More than one person involved? Or, individuals have varied perceptions of visuals, especially in passing by.
In early school I witnessed a "crime," and was almost kidnapped; myself alongside another girl. We were questioned separately and I realized when fully adult that what I actually saw was not at all a possible reality. I recalled LE exchanging surprised glances at my sincere reporting.
I have been interested in everyone's take on RA as BG; most views accept resemblance to the video, some not. And there were comments about his attempts to change his appearance.

 

[sunshineray]

If I was on the jury, the only significance in the kind of gun RA owned is that it used a .40 cartridge.

Since he claimed he was never on RL's land nor had he ever loaned his gun to anyone else, I'd want to know if there had been anyone else on that property whose gun used a .40 cartridge.

The actual amount of the production, the model of the gun, would be something to consider, IMO. The testimony on the ballistic science behind those markings is going to be very interesting also.

 

[DeDee]

Delphi was looking for

Police gave the description of the man as a white male aged between 16 and 40 years old, between 5’ 6” and 5’ 10” in height and weighing between 180 and 200 pounds.

RA was 44yo. He doesn't look younger.
RA is 5'4". Is this true? Wasn't LG 5'4"?
RA weighed 180, at time of arrest. FBI got this one right.

Wrong model it was a "Sig Sauer, Model P226, .40-caliber pistol," and in 2017 not 2023.

Delphi murders: What the unsealed documents reveal and the questions that remain

The Sig Sauer, Model P226, .40-caliber pistol has been an remains a popular firearm issued by police. Houston. Dallas. The SIG Sauer P226 is popular due to its reliability and heritage in the Special Forces community although I detect a current trend preferring the Glock.

"The three duty pistol options (as of April 20, 2017) are the Glock 19 (pictured), the Smith & Wesson 5946 and the SIG Sauer P226"

[DAO = double action only means trigger must be pulled for each shot.]
police issue .40, sig sauer P226 DAO - Bing

 

[sunshineray]

I agree that if anything in the confessions is information that only the killer would know, then the jury will discount everything else and convict him. The prosecution got fortunate that he made confessions about the crime after he was arrested.

In my opinion, the biggest piece of solid evidence the prosecution has against Richard Allen is the unspent cartridge found at the crime scene that forensic analysis says was cycled through his gun. The witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1, BB, is concerning because how does a sketch with a young face and curly hair end up looking like the real suspect, Richard Allen?

Also, if the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance video clearly shows Richard Allen's black 2016 Ford Focus arriving at around 1:30pm, that will be damaging at trial especially if he claims that he was only there from 12 to 1:30pm.

Richard Allen certainly got lucky no one saw him walk back to his car at the old CPS building after the crime. Police had to have asked witnesses on the trail between 2:13 and 4pm whether any of the people they saw matched the description of bridge guy and whether or not any of those people had wet and muddy pants and shoes? I think someone going in the water in February would be something that people would alert to about a person's clothing.

As for whether or not Richard Allen is the killer, that is something only he knows for sure.

I've been rethinking BB's description, via the FM. She supposedly used the words "poofy hair". She saw RA at a distance from the end of the bridge to the first platform. If RA had that hat on, the one he was pictured wearing in the video shooting pool and dancing a bit, it could have looked like a thick head of hair on top of his head..." poofy".

The hat was a dark brown kind of skull cap. The only allowed youtube video link I could find was GH, which shows the hat without the need to look for it in his video...link below to go with pictures. He even looks quite younger in this top pic.

 

[Soulmagent]

A witness did see a a man matching RA’s description wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans walking in the direction of his car. She described him as muddy and bloody and as though he had been in a fight per the PCA.
He was walking west on 300 N
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

So ,just wondering if you know or heard about a witness who passed him and the girls on the bridge and if an alleged photo may have been taken by that alleged witness .?.
I thought you might because when I read the response you gave to the post you quoted , It rang bells in my head. If not its cool . I am just kinda interested in if that comes out anytime , or maybe it did and I missed it.

 

[mrjitty]

Sorry for the delay in replying

Thanks for pointing out that Ausbrook, being a law academic (and appellate specialist), is a respected contributor to and interpreter of IN law.

And you're right - he's sharply criticized the RA proceedings and the Court's decisions/choices. (Noting also that Ausbrook is not the only highly skilled lawyer to do so.)

When he entered the RA docket, Ausbrook's purpose was to focus on the technical management of a significant brief (the State's Contempt Motion) filed incorrectly in Gull's court for RA's case. The brief has structural errors that would once again sideline RA's trial if not corrected. Ausbrook's motion was technical and instructive.

Well Ausbrook says it does, but my understanding is that there is a practice of filing the contempt information in the same process. Personally I'd prefer it wasn't.

The tone of Ausbrook's motion expressed exasperation and was consistent with his public commenting. Prior to appearing in Gull's court, Ausbrook has publicly taken exception to this Court's case management, this Court's Indiana records statute violations, and this Court's failure to cite it's decisions. Once this Court was successfully corrected by SCOIN as to records, and reversed as to blowing up RA's rights to counsel, Ausbrook entered the docket because the Court was headed sideways into structural error once again. (Heck, aren't we all exasperated?)

Ausbrook's brief rips apart the State's motion. Ausbrook is precise, cites plenty of supporting law, and is very transparent: Fix this error or we'll see you at the Appellate, AGAIN.

Again - that is what he contended. Personally I am not that convinced here because the contempt doesn't relate to RA or his trial. If for example they get a fine, and then appeal it and Ausbrook is proven correct, that has nothing to do with RAs trial IMO.

When translating sharp tone in legal briefs, I find it useful to consider context. Briefs are argument; when tone in a legal brief is firm - these are not personal attacks. These are attacks on the merit of arguments made by courtroom adversaries. (Lawyers attacking arguments i.e. debate - is fair game.)

Sure. Indeed at law school back in the day one read savage criticism of famous cases in the law journals. That is just how the law rolls.

So, I find Ausbrook both candid and refreshing in calling yet another foul play in this Court. I also find it refreshing that he's doing it IN ADVANCE. That's more than fair notice to the Court. Gull can change direction and avoid more Appellate delays. Which RA and his 6th A rights would really really appreciate.

...

You could be right (about option B). But just the idea that at the March 18th hearing, Gull will stand over the State and have them rewrite their Contempt Motion to comply with the law ... and then hold a hearing on the revised motion ... seems so absurd. Yet, here we are, thinking it's plausible ... because we now realize Gull is allergic to making a record. This shouldn't even be plausible, IMO. Especially not after Gull's SCOIN First Writ scramble to get that think mooted.

What I meant is that if Gull ultimately rules she does not have jurisdiction (per Ausbrook), then the P have to refile in a new information if they still want to continue with it. That would seem normal to me. Courts often hear matters and decide they don't have the jurisdiction to proceed.

I think at the hearing the prosecution will certainly have to show cause or she will dismiss it.

Is it too optimistic to hope the State's motion re-write to proper form (or clarification) appears on the docket in the next few days? Probably.

I think the argument will be quite clear at the hearing personally. Not sure what really needs to be clarified ahead of the hearing.

BTW, we have both Ausbrook AND Hennessey visiting Murder Sheet well before appearing in Gull's court. Which came first? Murder Sheet's "journalism" requests for expert interviews and analysis ... or these professional's academic interest in the highest profile case in Indiana for the past 7 years? (We don't know.) Motta reached out to Wieneke after she'd submitted her papers, and before the SCOIN decided on the 1st Writ and to hear the 2nd Writ. The Appellate case is not subject to a gag order, and (IMO) Cara's interview w/ Motta was a gift to fans of public transparency.

JMHO

Again discussion of the case by them is fine. But IMO counsel don't help their clients when they are making ill considered statements outside the court about the judge and then have to argue in front of the same judge.