Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #177

[katydid23]

Westerman (consultant for D) did not send the Defense discovery documents to the youtubers.

According to the State's filing (in a court other than Judge Gull's) Westerman is currently on trial for a crime where Baldwin is the named victim.

What you suggest would be a difficult argument for the State to make - even if in Gull's court.

JMHO

It is hard for me to consider Baldwin a victim in this case, considering the shady circumstances.

Westerman is now considered a 'consultant'? He did not have a law degree and was no longer an employee of Baldwin. So
what is it that makes him a 'consultant'?

I can't see Baldwin as a victim because he seems to have been very negligent. A conference room is not a reliable place to leave protected sealed documents and photos. Especially if left on a table, in an unsupervised, unoccupied unlocked room.

If the law decrees that documents I am responsible for have to remain sealed, where am I going to keep them?

I'd say in a locked file cabinet or a locked desk drawer, at the very least. I would not leave them on top of a table in an unlocked, unoccupied conference room.

Baldwin is not solely a victim, imo, as he bears much of the responsibility.

Westerman might as well have sent the docs to the YouTubers. His negligent actions made that event possible, imo.

 

[katydid23]

Franks Motion as a public speaking zealous defense motion ? - yes.

Personality disordered youtubers as a plan for risky leaking that pays off in critical mass PR ? - nope.

Proof? Not a single youtuber was called by either side as a witness today.

JMHO

Then why did the defense float their long witness list full of You-tubers? Were they pretending they were calling them?

What was their purpose in doing that?

 

[Spartygirl]

Franks Motion as a public speaking zealous defense motion ? - yes.

Personality disordered youtubers as a plan for risky leaking that pays off in critical mass PR ? - nope.

Proof? Not a single youtuber was called by either side as a witness today.

JMHO

I would take it a step further - if there is any practical benefit to leaking grisly crime scene photos of dead little girls it is generally to anyone but the defense. I think of the townsfolk with the pitchforks and torches going after the mad scientist in classic horror movies.
It just doesn't make sense to me that the defense would intentionally prejudice their own client that way. But so much of this case has never made sense to me.

Franks Motion as a public speaking zealous defense motion ? - yes.

Personality disordered youtubers as a plan for risky leaking that pays off in critical mass PR ? - nope.

Proof? Not a single youtuber was called by either side as a witness today.

JMHO

But it was the D team that listed them all as witnesses.

Why didnt they call them to the stand ??

Well, Of course, the one that got booted out of court. He would not have been able to comply....but the others ??

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I'm recalling the first list of witnesses the D put out for the Contempt hearing. There were at least 7 attorneys on that list. As reported in the newslink you provided above ^^ -
Long-practicing criminal attorneys taken from this list testified today on behalf of the Defense responding the issue you raise above; this strategist/consultant practice is normal, routine and proper, including in the current case.

Today Gull orchestrated a decision schedule on this non-trial contempt matter ... such that no decision can be expected for weeks. From this, it does seem that Gull no longer feels urgency/panic over this issue as she did in the early days, and before she had time to understand the big picture of what went down with the leaks. Nor does she seem to believe it necessary or that it would benefit RA to remove his Defense Team for a 2nd time (due to incompetence and/or gross negligence).

BBM/RSBM
This may be standard practice but it shouldn’t be if it’s in direct violation of the Protective Order 2/13/23 as in this case.
Starting in page 40

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863585/delphidocs.pdf

4. The discovery material may be only viewed by the parties, counsel and counsel’s investigators and experts.
5. That if copies of the discovery material are made and provided to the Defendant, investigators or experts of the Defense that sensitive and private information contained in the discovery shall be redacted, including any social security numbers. IDAC information or NCIC information, and any personal information related to juveniles, including social security numbers, names and date of birth, and any FBI sentinel information.
6. The discovery material shall not be distributed to any person not authorized to view it, including
witnesses , family members, relatives and friends of the defendant.
7. That no person other than the Defendant, Counsel for the Defendant, and those persons listed in Paragraph 5 shall be granted access to said discovery, or the substance of any portion thereof unless that person has signed an agreement in writing that he or she has received a copy of this Order and that he or she submits to the Court’s jurisdiction and authority with respect to the material; agrees to subject to the Court’s contempt powers for any violation of this order; and is granted prior permission by this Court to access said discovery material.

To my knowledge MW was not employed by the defense, an expert or an investigator for defense or had an agreement in writing and prior Court permission.
Defense first labeled him a friend, then a thief and now a consultant. Which is it?

None of those labels appear to be allowed parties in the Protective Order.

 

[mrjitty]

Per this rushed and stumbling report.
Defense states MW was a consultant for defense when he leaked the crime scene photos. It was routine for defense to bring in consultants to assist with the case.
MOO this in direct violation of the orders. Unless MW had been cleared by court to have access to evidence.

The biggest issue of the morning half of Monday’s hearing was the leak of crime scene pictures that were taken by a consultant working for Andy Baldwin, one of Allen’s attorneys. The defense argued the leak was an accident, and that the person shared the pictures without Baldwin’s knowledge.

Delphi murders hearing ends after hours of back and forth

This remains my beef with Hennessy and especially his own 'you tube' appearance

It was Hennessy who got up in court and then on the pro defence you tube to essentially claim that AB was the victim of an old friend who snuck in a stole the photos.

Only later did we find out MW is a 'consultant' who had been sent the Franks and heaven knows what parts of the discovery. So in what way was MW a consultant? Was he being paid to work on the case?

They've been deceptive all along, which is why i would love to read AB's police statement.

 

[mrjitty]

Long thread here from reporter inside the courtroom today. He's still working on the thread

https://twitter.com/x/status/1769866541481295982

I don't feel DH has lived up to his reputation on this case.

His motions are full of typos and errors - and then we read this

While the prosecutor’s case was not air tight, the defense’s presentation today was a downright mess. Attorney David Hennessy chose to focus on YouTuber and Internet Skeuther testimony rather than holes in prosecution arguments. That didn’t fly with Judge Gull.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1769873663174533598

 

[Cyber sleuth]

It is hard for me to consider Baldwin a victim in this case, considering the shady circumstances.

Westerman is now considered a 'consultant'? He did not have a law degree and was no longer an employee of Baldwin. So
what is it that makes him a 'consultant'?

I can't see Baldwin as a victim because he seems to have been very negligent. A conference room is not a reliable place to leave protected sealed documents and photos. Especially if left on a table, in an unsupervised, unoccupied unlocked room.

If the law decrees that documents I am responsible for have to remain sealed, where am I going to keep them?

I'd say in a locked file cabinet or a locked desk drawer, at the very least. I would not leave them on top of a table in an unlocked, unoccupied conference room.

Baldwin is not solely a victim, imo, as he bears much of the responsibility.

Westerman might as well have sent the docs to the YouTubers. His negligent actions made that event possible, imo.

If MW was a consultant, expert or investigator for the defense team why didn’t he just say so from the gate?
Why would defense allow charges against him and good luck finding representation if he was part of the defense team?
If collaboration is allowed and encouraged at AB’s firm ( as their company’s internet page touts) then why would MW be left holding the bag for “snookering”?
Defense needs to pick their poison.

This remains my beef with Hennessy and especially his own 'you tube' appearance

It was Hennessy who got up in court and then on the pro defence you tube to essentially claim that AB was the victim of an old friend who snuck in a stole the photos.

Only later did we find out MW is a 'consultant' who had been sent the Franks and heaven knows what parts of the discovery. So in what way was MW a consultant? Was he being paid to work on the case?

They've been deceptive all along, which is why i would love to read AB's police statement.

You and me both. Was it falsified? Or simply loads of belie.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Long thread here from reporter inside the courtroom today. He's still working on the thread

https://twitter.com/x/status/1769866541481295982

This one…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1769891989988704744

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Article is from a few years ago and Nick M. talks about this case "stresses him out." It also mentions the 4 little girls in the Flora fire. I remember that he wouldn't release the 911 call of that horrific night. It went to the ISC and they sided with him. It seems as though secrecy is abundant in Carroll County MOO. Perhaps if the 911 call had been released.. someone might have recognized "the voice" and an arrest might have came. RIH to the SIX innocent Carroll County girls.

Carroll County prosecutor plans to keep Delphi teen girls’ homicides in the public eye

DELPHI — It has been two years — 730 long days — since Liberty German and Abigail Williams disappeared from the Monon High Bridge Trail while they were on a

www.newsbug.info

 

[mrjitty]

If MW was a consultant, expert or investigator for the defense team why didn’t he just say so from the gate?
Why would defense allow charges against him and good luck finding representation if he was part of the defense team?
If collaboration is allowed and encouraged at AB’s firm ( as their company’s internet page touts) then why would MW be left holding the bag for “snookering”?
Defense needs to pick their poison.

You and me both. Was it falsified? Or simply loads of belie.

I suspect that the truth is brutal for his PI cover hence why they have to have a bob each way.

Sure it might be common practice to discuss strategy with mentors and confidantes - especially where they are also attorneys. But obviously if one of those people then misused the info, that could be a disaster for your indemnity - unless they are a formal team member, in which case you will be covered. OR if AB was truly the victim of an old friend, but negligent, he would also be covered.

The problems start where you intentionally give access to everything to MW over an extended timeframe. But it sounds like the prosecution may struggle with the proof of that part.

I think we might never get the truth, but i hope the family take AB's PI cover for a ride.

 

[mrjitty]

If i had to put money on it, my hunch is MWs 'consultancy' was not to leak discovery, but to advise on how to create/tap into the social media narratives that might help the defence. Perhaps in that role, he went too far in establishing his bonafides

But nevertheless the defence has been very successful at this, and have since realised that they can directly use surrogates like BM to communicate "their thinking", above and beyond the messaging motions.

Maybe this is just how the cool kids will roll on these high profile cases, if the judge won't let them chat to the media directly.

 

[sunshineray]

They were reinstated by the Indiana Supreme Court as public defenders. As such, they should be paid and so should their expenses.

JG should taken up their pro bono offer and saved Carroll Co. some money.

That wasn't a real offer. D knew there was a snowball's chance JG would agree to that from two lawyers that had so blatantly disregarded the court. That offer was all for show. IMO

 

[mrjitty]

That wasn't a real offer. D knew there was a snowball's chance JG would agree to that from two lawyers that had so blatantly disregarded the court. That offer was all for show. IMO

Obviously it would not be financially feasible.

 

[Emma Peel]

If i had to put money on it, my hunch is MWs 'consultancy' was not to leak discovery, but to advise on how to create/tap into the social media narratives that might help the defence. Perhaps in that role, he went too far in establishing his bonafides

But nevertheless the defence has been very successful at this, and have since realised that they can directly use surrogates like BM to communicate "their thinking", above and beyond the messaging motions.

Maybe this is just how the cool kids will roll on these high profile cases, if the judge won't let them chat to the media directly.

OH fun! Let's put money on that. I'm the bank. Venmo me now.

 

[layer]

OH fun! Let's put money on that. I'm the bank. Venmo me now.

I got this

Obviously it would not be financially feasible.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers​

February 17, 2021.... PART ONE

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

It was announced there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail William, the two middle school students who went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2017 and did not return alive. Questions about the case from both the local...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

February 24, 2021.... PART TWO

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby agreed to answer a second set of questions from readers this week about the 2017 double homicide of Delphi Community Middle School students, Libby German and Abby Williams, who were murdered during an outing on the Delphi trails system near the Monon High...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[susiQ]

I don't feel DH has lived up to his reputation on this case.

His motions are full of typos and errors - and then we read this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1769873663174533598

Hmmm….interesting opinion but certainly not the only one out there. I’ve listened to two that felt very different about it. Some good note taking was done and recap of what was said during the proceeding. I’d love to see a complete transcript before forming my own. JMO

 

[somequestions]

I'm thoroughly confused. I thought the theory was that RA, as BG, walked up to the girls on the bridge, threatened them with the gun, then led them down the hill. In what alternate universe is that not kidnapping?

The reason the kidnapping charges were dropped is the prosecution cannot prove Richard Allen kidnapped Abigail Williams and Liberty German. If I were on a jury, I could easily find him not guilty of that charge because no one can be sure who the person on Liberty German's phone video really is. I cannot make out the facial identity with any certainty because the video is too grainy. Can the prosecution prove it is Richard Allen's voice saying, "Down the hill"? The other reason he would have been found not guilty of kidnapping is no one actually saw Richard Allen pull a gun and order the girls down the hill as far as I know.

What the prosecution will try to prove, based on the unspent cartridge, is that Richard Allen was at the crime scene where the murders took place. The toolmark evidence places Richard Allen at the crime scene(if it is good evidence), and even if the girls were not murdered by a gun. His placement within the trail area and the Monon High Bridge is decent circumstantial evidence to suggest he was in the woods with the girls. Also, the confessions only help the prosecution's case.

I do not know if a jury will convict him of murder or felony murder. But no one can prove Richard Allen kidnapped Abigail Williams and Liberty German based on the evidence(or the evidence that we know of to date). No one knows if that person on Liberty German's phone video is Richard Allen. It is too grainy a picture for clear identification.

 

[Ravenmoon]

The reason the kidnapping charges were dropped is the prosecution cannot prove Richard Allen kidnapped Abigail Williams and Liberty German. If I were on a jury, I could easily find him not guilty of that charge because no one can be sure who the person on Liberty German's phone video really is. I cannot make out the facial identity with any certainty because the video is too grainy. Can the prosecution prove it is Richard Allen's voice saying, "Down the hill"? The other reason he would have been found not guilty of kidnapping is no one actually saw Richard Allen pull a gun and order the girls down the hill as far as I know.

What the prosecution will try to prove, based on the unspent cartridge, is that Richard Allen was at the crime scene where the murders took place. The toolmark evidence places Richard Allen at the crime scene(if it is good evidence), and even if the girls were not murdered by a gun. His placement within the trail area and the Monon High Bridge is decent circumstantial evidence to suggest he was in the woods with the girls. Also, the confessions only help the prosecution's case.

I do not know if a jury will convict him of murder or felony murder. But no one can prove Richard Allen kidnapped Abigail Williams and Liberty German based on the evidence(or the evidence that we know of to date). No one knows if that person on Liberty German's phone video is Richard Allen. It is too grainy a picture for clear identification.

That's not what happened.
This is what actually occurred:

A judge approved two additional murder counts Monday against an Indiana man charged in the killings of two teenage girls but rejected a prosecutor’s bid to add kidnapping charges.
The new charges approved against Richard Allen of Delphi are murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping.https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c195d8-e583-11ee-9eba-1558f848ec25_story.html

 

[Teche]

Delphi Defense Witness ‘Booted from Courthouse’ at Pre-Trial Hearing

At a contempt hearing for Richard Allen’s attorneys over leaked crime scene photos, a YouTuber expected to testify for the defense was thrown out of the courtroom after a reported scuffle.

www.courttv.com

Delphi Defense Witness ‘Booted From Courthouse’ At Pre-Trial Hearing​

At a contempt hearing for Richard Allen’s attorneys over leaked crime scene photos, a YouTuber expected to testify for the defense was thrown out of the courtroom after a reported scuffle.(3/18/24)

Wow! Who was he scuffling with?