Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

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Just as baffling to me is why NMcL only mentioned the phone confessions at the June hearing. He didn't mention any of these other confessions to "state actors", yet the D claims the State plans to use them at trial. It's hard to say what strategy is at play here, IMO.
Prison officials had prisoners taking notes on RA, reporting back to the State, sharing RA's confessions with their family members on visits, etc... BIG NO NOs - seems to me this would be State coercion as D argues.

NM would have a professional/ethical obligation to disclose State coercion ... If he were aware.

Timeline needs to show the family phone confessions occurred after State coerced confessions were on the books. Timeline needs to show meds vs psychosis vs confessions vs weight loss vs. recovery.

Giving NM the benefit of the doubt, he's got to be so so furious with law enforcement at this point.

NM gets hit right and left with major LE errors ... to the point where a major P strategy is how to get around those errors.

JMHO
 
The D’s deliberately exposing “bona fide mental disorder” RA to known conditions of detainment furthermore denying him mental health considerations and in fact saying completely otherwise as to his mental health needs does not reflect the best for their client.

If you care about RA its best they don’t do too much more for him considering they themselves are putting their neglect of consideration and defense of his mental health on record.

It was necessary before RA’s so called decline. But yeah let’s keep it a secret so he can put on a big show for the D’s.

RA’s mental health is on the D’s who denied it and then entertained themselves with his case.


all imo
Thanks for the reply.
 
From the 4/5/2023 Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order (hearing was in June, JG's denial was in July):

i. Attorneys for Mr. Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to Mr. Allen on Friday, March 24, 2023, with the intention of seeking their client's copperation in his own defense. As of Monday, April 3rd, 2023, said information has yet to be provided to Mr. Allen;


12. To further complicate matters, Mr. Allen has suffered from depression dating back to his early years. Upon his incarceration, Mr. Allen was presumably evaluated and medicated by prison medical staff. Up until a visit with Mr. Allen on April 4, 2023, counsel for Mr. Allen found him to be polite, communicative with great eye contact, generally responsive to our questions and exhibiting a good sense of humor on occasion in spite of his false arrest and circumstances. However, Mr. Allen's deteriorating physical condition has been observed by Counsel dating back to the beginning of the new year. As recently as Friday, April 24th, 2023, Attorney Andrew Baldwin met with Mr. Allen with optimistic news about the direction of the case, and Mr. Allen was inquisitive about the information, was thankful about the information and optimistic about the information. Only ten days later (April 3, 2023), Attorneys for Mr. Allen observed a steep decline in Mr. Allen's demeanor, ability to communicate, ability to comprehend and ability to assist in his defense. Simply put, this version of Richard Allen was a very different version than counsel for Mr. Allen had interacted with over the past five months. Mr. Allen appeared to be suffering from various psychotic symptoms which counsel would describe as schizophrenic and delusional. Counsel further believes that in our April 4, 2023 interaction, Mr. Allen seems to be suffering from memory loss and is demonstrating an overall inability to communicate rationally with counsel and family members. Counsel experienced, these symptoms, firsthand, upon visiting Mr. Allen on Monday, April 4th, 2023;
 
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This is all extremely worrisome to me. Many here who thought they needed "more" to favor RA's guilt indicated that if he had revealed information in his "confessions" that only the killer would know, that would go a long way, but if he didn't, it wouldn't be helpful. If the information revealed today is true (and I've no reason not to think so), the "confessions" go sadly in entirely the other direction.

When I say "worrisome," I mean that, given what we know from public filings, I don't see how the state will get a guilty verdict here. I hope that there is more to come, as it would be truly tragic if this trial doesn't bring closure.

And not that it's worth much, but if I were guessing (and NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt"), I think RA was BG but didn't act alone.
BBM- There are more confessions that the defense did not mention or include parts of in this filing. Of course they picked things he said that were not true to put in this filing because they have an agenda with this and they want to use these few statements he made that are not supported by evidence to get ALL of the conversations, letters he wrote, and statements he made thrown out.

So imagine if he told his wife accurate information and he told his mother accurate information that only the killer would know. Imagine he wrote the warden and added a detail that wasn't released to the public. Now his lawyers know how damning THAT is so they write up this filing and only include things he said that were bogus, which I think were made AFTER he confessed to his wife and mother. I am sure his mental health went downhill when he realized he was sunk. The reality of his life and how it was going to be now must have really caused him to lose it. I don't know if it was faked or if it was real, but I do think the purpose of him making all the fake statements was to then be used just as they are now. His lawyers can exclude or include any detail they want when they file something. They want ALL the confessions out because they know some of them are not going to help him at all because they contain info that he should not know if he didn't do the crime.

Just my opinion.
 
Excellent @OldCop. It happens. And when it does you better have documentation. I wonder if the number of tips was overwhelming… more than most cases. Surely for that small town.
Thanks, @vinayd. I’m sure there were an overwhelming number of tips that came in. And every one has to be followed up. One thing to remember is that the Carroll County SO, the ISP, and the FBI were on this case immediately with the Delphi PD. By the 16th, the FBI had obtained a search warrant for the home and vehicles belonging to the owner of the property where the bodies were found.
How all the additional resources are organized and managed in such a high profile case is of utmost importance. You need spokespeople, a central clearinghouse, allocation of resources etc, etc.
Decorum has it that the lead agency is the jurisdiction where the crime occurred. However, that is not necessarily the person who should be in charge, basically due to experience and resources. Sometimes the state police/criminal investigation bureau will take the lead, but have the “local” department be the frontmen. Then also, unfortunately, you often have egos involved. Everyone wants to be the one who solved the big case. It takes a strong personality and a person who firmly believes in teamwork to wrangle all the parts together and then keep them intact so they can present a strong, cohesive case to the prosecutor.
 
Just as baffling to me is why NMcL only mentioned the phone confessions at the June hearing. He didn't mention any of these other confessions to "state actors", yet the D claims the State plans to use them at trial. It's hard to say what strategy is at play here, IMO.
I'm wondering if NMcL didn't mention them because he wasn't going to use them, he knew they were not accurate and were made when RA was in a psychotic state. I think what could be used is the fact he made accurate confessions prior to his psychotic break and that the reality of what was about to happen hit him and caused the break.. THEN he was rambling and ranting about things that were not true, but this was at the point his mental state was not well. I think it also could explain why they want access to his mental health records. IF he had no issues prior to him confessing to his wife and mother on the phone, then his mental health went downhill and THEN he made false statements.. I'd say those statements are a non issue and would only be used to show his mental state and NOT to be used as his confessing. The D wants to spin it as his confessions were all false, but they didn't mention any of the content of what he said to his wife or his mother or what he wrote to the warden. If he was in his right mind then, I'd say whatever those confessions are would likely be more reliable than ones me made after a documented mental health decline.. and the D so nicely included that timeline when they said he was "normal" even toward the end of March, but by the April 4th meeting he was acting different.. so when did he talk to his wife and mother and when was the letter to the warden?
 
Carter explained his agency learned a lot in the last nearly 2,100 days of investigating the Delphi murders. Without the help of the FBI, an arrest may have never happened.

“We didn't have the ability to take this much information as an agency. We relied heavily on the FBI,” Carter said. “And they were just simply magnificent early on, by bringing the Orion system in and allowing us in partnering with us and showing us how to collect and keep so much information. And it made us better. So, there are a lot of lessons. Because as all of us in our lifetime, we look back and think dang it, I missed it there. But one thing I'm sure we didn't do anything we knew is wrong. But we all wish we had some do-overs for sure.”

'I feel a sense of peace': ISP Superintendent Doug Carter speaks three days after Delphi arrest announcement
 
Prison officials had prisoners taking notes on RA, reporting back to the State, sharing RA's confessions with their family members on visits, etc... BIG NO NOs - seems to me this would be State coercion as D argues.

NM would have a professional/ethical obligation to disclose State coercion ... If he were aware.

Timeline needs to show the family phone confessions occurred after State coerced confessions were on the books. Timeline needs to show meds vs psychosis vs confessions vs weight loss vs. recovery.

Giving NM the benefit of the doubt, he's got to be so so furious with law enforcement at this point.

NM gets hit right and left with major LE errors ... to the point where a major P strategy is how to get around those errors.

JMHO
The timeline is tight. The D saw him acting normal on March 24 (although some physical decline), he confessed over the phone on April 3, the D saw him acting differently on April 4, and the Emergency Motion was filed on April 5. The prison staff also started watching him in early April, instead of other inmates, which means all the "confessions" to other inmates happened prior to early April (possibly mid-March, per yesterday's memo). So, my question, which is hopefully answered in prison records, is what exactly happened prior to March 24, but especially between March 24 and April 3?
 
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I was thinking if he did have a mental break then him saying he shot one of them in the back.

Well maybe he attempted to and the gun malfunctioned and that’s why a bullet ended up between the bodies. So in his broken metal state (if true) he has slightly misremembered what happened. He has broken memories of that day due to his mental state.
RA is sly like a fox IMO. He didn't have a mental break, he might have suffered from anxiety and fear over the world, and most importantly his family, finding out that he admittedly murdered Abby & Libby. If he had such a lengthy history of medical or psychological issues, why was he allowed to be in charge of a pharmacy setting filling life saving medications? Nope, I don't buy that. Did he have an alcohol issue? I can imagine that.

The State Correctional facilities that housed RA would not be foolish enough to deny any previous medications or psychological evals if he had been on an antidepressants or whatever. That is one of the reasons he was moved out of the local jail the first time for safe keeping and access to treatment.

It's yet another set of conspiracies that the Defense has crafted out of desperation. It reeks.

31 days to trial guys....tick tock.

IMO
 
I am utterly disgusted in what has been done to this man at the hands of those in “authority.” To take a man that has struggled much of his life with mental illness and bring him to the point of what we read in the Motion to Suppress is pure evil. Of course, those that believe he did it, despite evidence to the contrary, feel “he deserves what he’s gotten.” I find this absolutely appalling. They will also continue to disparage his attorney’s ad nauseam, how they are “spinning” the truth, and that’s what defence attorneys do. I dare say, “especially when they believe their client is in fact innocent!”

Even IF he was guilty of the crime, in some way involved in a minor role, is this type of treatment acceptable in the US? To take a sick man and break completely break his mind through this type of treatment? God help us all.
All MOO
is this type of treatment acceptable in the US?
Most criminals placed behind steel bars in the USA can typically handle the terms of being incarcerated. Their corrupted thoughts allow them to flourish in many ways, some earn college degrees, some learn the skill of cooking while others may still cause trouble.


If the writing on the wall is not clear, I'll write it in English in this post.

There is no doubt in my mind the powers that be, with extreme degradation and total disregard to human life, fully expected this man to suicide himself. The trial would not happen if the accused were to be found dead in his cell. May God help us, one and all.

JMOO
 
Yes, there are confessions recorded that were made to his wife and mother. RA’s defense attorney’s said as much in open court.
The defense attorneys are certainly capable of coming up with this strategy. Honesty is not their strong point.
They don’t worry about disbarment. They have a large fan base that sees this as a tough and vigorous defense.

They are experienced, seasoned, mature attorneys. I would imagine they are well aware that it's not their "fan base" that determines whether or not they are disbarred.

IMO. MOO.
 
Sorry it has taken so long to respond, @zh0r4 and sorry for the rambling answer. You ask some good questions, some of which are tough to answer because we have so many different sizes of LE agencies and each have their own way of doing things. Some have many more resources than others. That being said any size agency has the absolute responsibility to collect and maintain, in a safe and secure manner, any available evidence in relation to a crime. This includes hard evidence, circumstantial evidence, forensic evidence, digital evidence, and any and all paperwork accumulated during the course of an investigation.
A small town police department may only have one locked evidence room filled with file cabinets and boxes and may contain anything from murder weapons to drugs to recovered stolen goods whereas a big city police department has separate evidence rooms in each division and for each type of crime; homicide, drugs, sexual assault etc.
But I digress.
Recorded interviews should be backed up, duplicated whenever possible, and they should be accompanied by the officer’s hand written notes. Additionally, the officer should type up a report detailing the statements provided by the witness or suspect during the interview or interrogation. The statement should be signed and dated by both the interviewing officer(s) and by the witness/suspect. This provides a good backup up to a recording.
“Securing and protecting digital evidence has always been a problem. Officers and detectives fear that their digital evidence, which is usually stored on a DVD or flash drive, will become lost, broken, or corrupted. The DVR-type systems many agencies use are notorious for being unreliable, recording choppy or digitizing sound (robot noises instead of words).”
Even when LE has good supporting evidence in the event a recording has been damaged or lost, it still may not be enough to convince a jury. They want to see it. When it is missing, some people will believe that the material was intentionally hidden. This in turn causes some jurors to lose trust in the all the prosecution’s evidence. So, yes, when a vital piece of evidence cannot be produced in its original form, it can have a detrimental effect on the prosecution’s case.
I have seen cases where digital evidence was lost or damaged in a current case, but not to the extent we see here. It seems the record keeping in this case was shoddy at best at the local level. I also think there was an over reliance on the FBI ORION system to keep track of everything.
It is more common for files on old cases to be lost. This usually occurs because old files are shifted around, maybe sent to a storage warehouse, to make room for newer cases and make accessibility easier for investigators.
Unfortunately, even records at the highest level of government can be compromised.

“The National Institutes of Health, the Department of Energy, the DHS and the FBI are also amongst the many branches of the U.S. government that have previously bought the tool.”

All the new high tech reporting and collection systems are amazing, but due to conditions of human error, equipment breakdowns, weather/fire loss, it is sometimes the old fashioned handwritten report that saves the day.
There has been a huge push to go paperless in all factions of society, but electronic storage is fallible, too.
I still find it hard to believe that it was months before Investigators realized that the interview tapes had been overwritten. In a case such as this I would have thought investigators would be poring over the tapes to make sure they had not overlooked anything in a witness interview or suspect interrogation. The way the recording system was set up in the interview room leaves much to be desired. From what I understand, you flipped a switch when you entered the room to start recording and then you flipped it back as you left to stop recording. How many times have any of us “left the lights on” when we left a room? The fact that no one else noticed the issue in the intervening months would seem to show that there was little oversight, but also how few serious cases were being investigated in this small town.
I think most if not all of the many mistakes made in this case were due to poor management and inexperience. However, that is no excuse. No matter the size of your town or your budget, you have a moral responsibility to protect any evidence collected in a criminal matter whether you have all the high tech tools available to law enforcement or a pen, paper, and camera.
RSBMM - poor management and inexperience...is no excuse.

Thank you for this straightforward and deeply thoughtful assessment - all of it. It's so helpful!

Wondering if you have any thoughts as to how this poor management and inexperience led to fumbling around and pulling RA out of a remote drawer 5 years later? Does it seem awkward, but entirely reasonable to you? Do you have any thoughts about what the investigation probably had ... but likely lost ... that would make their case against RA more clear?
 
Most criminals placed behind steel bars in the USA can typically handle the terms of being incarcerated. Their corrupted thoughts allow them to flourish in many ways, some earn college degrees, some learn the skill of cooking while others may still cause trouble.


If the writing on the wall is not clear, I'll write it in English in this post.

There is no doubt in my mind the powers that be, with extreme degradation and total disregard to human life, fully expected this man to suicide himself. The trial would not happen if the accused were to be found dead in his cell. May God help us, one and all.

JMOO
I’ve considered the same possibility, DeDee. Then I consider that if LE wanted to wrap it up and avoid a trial by pinning the murders on a dead man, they could have easily targeted RL or PE.
 
RA is sly like a fox IMO. He didn't have a mental break, he might have suffered from anxiety and fear over the world, and most importantly his family, finding out that he admittedly murdered Abby & Libby. If he had such a lengthy history of medical or psychological issues, why was he allowed to be in charge of a pharmacy setting filling life saving medications? Nope, I don't buy that. Did he have an alcohol issue? I can imagine that.

The State Correctional facilities that housed RA would not be foolish enough to deny any previous medications or psychological evals if he had been on an antidepressants or whatever. That is one of the reasons he was moved out of the local jail the first time for safe keeping and access to treatment.

It's yet another set of conspiracies that the Defense has crafted out of desperation. It reeks.

31 days to trial guys....tick tock.

IMO
BBM- Exactly!

This is a man that boldly abducted 2 girls in broad daylight on a public trail.

This is a man that then went and talk to a LEO and told that LEO he was there at the time of the abduction and murder of 2 girls AND he was wearing the exact outfit that would later be seen on the murderer as he walked toward the girls.

This is the same man that LIVED in the town and saw the parents and other family members of his victims when they came in to his work place.

He is capable of acting in any way he needs to get away with his evil deeds.

JMO.
 
Sorry it has taken so long to respond, @zh0r4 and sorry for the rambling answer. You ask some good questions, some of which are tough to answer because we have so many different sizes of LE agencies and each have their own way of doing things. Some have many more resources than others. That being said any size agency has the absolute responsibility to collect and maintain, in a safe and secure manner, any available evidence in relation to a crime. This includes hard evidence, circumstantial evidence, forensic evidence, digital evidence, and any and all paperwork accumulated during the course of an investigation.
A small town police department may only have one locked evidence room filled with file cabinets and boxes and may contain anything from murder weapons to drugs to recovered stolen goods whereas a big city police department has separate evidence rooms in each division and for each type of crime; homicide, drugs, sexual assault etc.
But I digress.
Recorded interviews should be backed up, duplicated whenever possible, and they should be accompanied by the officer’s hand written notes. Additionally, the officer should type up a report detailing the statements provided by the witness or suspect during the interview or interrogation. The statement should be signed and dated by both the interviewing officer(s) and by the witness/suspect. This provides a good backup up to a recording.
“Securing and protecting digital evidence has always been a problem. Officers and detectives fear that their digital evidence, which is usually stored on a DVD or flash drive, will become lost, broken, or corrupted. The DVR-type systems many agencies use are notorious for being unreliable, recording choppy or digitizing sound (robot noises instead of words).”
Even when LE has good supporting evidence in the event a recording has been damaged or lost, it still may not be enough to convince a jury. They want to see it. When it is missing, some people will believe that the material was intentionally hidden. This in turn causes some jurors to lose trust in the all the prosecution’s evidence. So, yes, when a vital piece of evidence cannot be produced in its original form, it can have a detrimental effect on the prosecution’s case.
I have seen cases where digital evidence was lost or damaged in a current case, but not to the extent we see here. It seems the record keeping in this case was shoddy at best at the local level. I also think there was an over reliance on the FBI ORION system to keep track of everything.
It is more common for files on old cases to be lost. This usually occurs because old files are shifted around, maybe sent to a storage warehouse, to make room for newer cases and make accessibility easier for investigators.
Unfortunately, even records at the highest level of government can be compromised.

“The National Institutes of Health, the Department of Energy, the DHS and the FBI are also amongst the many branches of the U.S. government that have previously bought the tool.”

All the new high tech reporting and collection systems are amazing, but due to conditions of human error, equipment breakdowns, weather/fire loss, it is sometimes the old fashioned handwritten report that saves the day.
There has been a huge push to go paperless in all factions of society, but electronic storage is fallible, too.
I still find it hard to believe that it was months before Investigators realized that the interview tapes had been overwritten. In a case such as this I would have thought investigators would be poring over the tapes to make sure they had not overlooked anything in a witness interview or suspect interrogation. The way the recording system was set up in the interview room leaves much to be desired. From what I understand, you flipped a switch when you entered the room to start recording and then you flipped it back as you left to stop recording. How many times have any of us “left the lights on” when we left a room? The fact that no one else noticed the issue in the intervening months would seem to show that there was little oversight, but also how few serious cases were being investigated in this small town.
I think most if not all of the many mistakes made in this case were due to poor management and inexperience. However, that is no excuse. No matter the size of your town or your budget, you have a moral responsibility to protect any evidence collected in a criminal matter whether you have all the high tech tools available to law enforcement or a pen, paper, and camera.
Thank you for this information. It's nice to see the perspective of a LEO.

What is your opinion on RA? If you are comfortable sharing. :)

What are you thoughts on him living in Delphi after the crime and him coming forward to talk to LE as a witness? In your experience, have you seen this happen before?
 
He is capable of acting in any way he needs to get away with his evil deeds.
So you're still on the fence :)
I think everyone has their own standards for when something clicks in their mind. For example, when I learned that Cristhian Rivera led LE to Mollie Tibbitts body, I was convinced. It clicked. This case hasn't clicked for me, more like grinding and screeching noises.
 
I’ve considered the same possibility, DeDee. Then I consider that if LE wanted to wrap it up and avoid a trial by pinning the murders on a dead man, they could have easily targeted RL or PE.
Your understanding of the possible legal repercussions and ramifications is humbly appreciated.

I noted in this post by @OldCop it's mentioned a served warrant on Ron Logan's property.

"By the 16th, the FBI had obtained a search warrant for the home and vehicles belonging to the owner of the property where the bodies were found."

My link to the Logan warrant is signed MARCH 17, 2017 by JDiener.
https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

Is it possible for someone to toss the link to a search warrant on FEB 16, 2017 for Logan's home, please? TIA
 
RSBM

What you have stated about the expectation of privacy is generally true. However, the problem here is that RA is not an inmate. He is considered a pretrial detainee. Generally, the rules are similar for pretrial detainees (no expectation of privacy) but is much more nuanced than with the rules for an inmate. Several rights are retained by pretrial detainees that inmates are not granted. These rules are very complicated, usually are visited on a case-by-case basis by the courts, and differ from one Circuit court to the next. This is likely why the defense is arguing that inmates were acting as agents of the state. If the state uses trickery to elicit a confession, or uses coercion through the inmates, the likelihood that the confessions will be suppressed is higher.
When I leave my front door, and unless I am in my physicians office, with my clergy or a lawyer, I don't have an expectation of privacy. I'm recorded on CCTV at numerous locations (average person up to 70 times per day), my conversations are overheard at restaurants, parks, buses, subways, shopping, etc.

RA is a Defendant in a high profile double homicide. I feel comfortable thinking the Correctional Institutions that have housed him have been informed of what and what does not apply to RA. Unless they are also included in the conspiracy to railroad a completely innocent man for no reason.

I don't see that personally, but I also don't condone those that think that way. I guess we'll find out in about a month.

moo
 
BIB - does this indicate, that he confessed to molesting other named girls? (i.e not the victims in this case)



(from the memo at page 10)
I thought the same thing...it could. We've discussed before about how the Delphi murders can be the first such crimes for a man of his age, how unusual that would be, no priors. Maybe there were priors?
 
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