Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[Emma Peel]

As a practical matter, I think it is unlikely the Judge will rule to ban any and all confessions if you don't mention with precision all the various categories of confessions, the differing legal arguments applying to them and some kind of timeline.

Maybe such a timeline will be a separate exhibit, but then you still are missing the legal arguments.

To me the scope of the application is at p2 of the memo - it clearly refers to statements to guards and prisoners between mid March and June. IMO nothing else is included.



Whatever the reason not to mention the calls, I think it is hard to maintain that the defence is asking for their suppression here.

02c

2024 4/11 Allen Motion.pdf.pdf

Check out the motion linked ^^ above.
It's appears to be a blanket motion for all incriminating statements made by RA that the State intends to present to the jury ... to be suppressed. BBM in the quotes below.

2. During the course of Defendant Allen's pre-trial detention, it is alleged that
Defendant Allen communicated incriminating statements to State actors and/or their
agents, all of which the State of Indiana intends to present to jury at the trial in this cause.

5. The statements sought to be suppressed were obtained as result of physical coercion illegally directed against the Defendant and such statements were, therefore, involuntarily given.

Therefore, any and all communications, confessions, statements, or admissions
alleged to have been offered up by Defendant Allen were elicited in Violation of his
constitutional rights under the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to the
Constitution of the United States and his rights under Article 1, 12, 13 and 14 of the
Indiana Constitution.

WHEREFORE, Defendant Allen, by Counsel, respectfully requests this Court:
1. Conduct pre-trial hearing to determine if the statements alleged to have
been given were voluntary in nature; and
2. Suppress as evidence in this cause any and all communications, confessions, statements or admissions, written or oral, made by him subsequent to his arrest in this cause.

 

[mrjitty]

2024 4/11 Allen Motion.pdf.pdf

Check out the motion linked ^^ above.
It's appears to be a blanket motion for all incriminating statements made by RA that the State intends to present to the jury ... to be suppressed. BBM in the quotes below.

Does a statement to family fall under "incriminating statements to State actors and/or their agents"?

I feel like we are way down in the weeds about something they'd just clearly refer to if they mean to include it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Ten inches would be within hearing distance for sure. Ten feet, probably. Wouldn't that all get sorted out in depositions?

It was 10 feet at least. Again its always extreme assumptions, now the P was lip reading the videos? That is more than a stretch IMO. Is everything in this case a giant conspiracy against RA?

They didn't have the video directed on the Defense, just pointed in the general direction of RA. Maybe 'they' (whoever they are) are talented enough to lip read someone with their head turned or their face down from 10 feet. IDK

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

MOO depends on their commitment. It's a 90 minute drive from Delphi to Westville, this kind of drive is something lawyers do all the time. Usually making work calls while driving.

I would guess that R&B saw their client RA less than 10 times during his incarceration at Westville. I hope we do find out how many visits they personally made.

R&B are busy guys, they can't drive that far, it's not convenient as they stated in their many Motions to Transfer.

jmo

 

[snooptroop88]

Profiler John Kelly when profiling BG with guests noted BG might be chewing or talking, another view holds BG was "talking to himself." (Someone must have seen the more extended video, I don't see this). That to me may indicate he did indeed have a microphone (?). John Kelly & guests are wondering if BG was hearing voices, though. (I think he may be hearing real voices, they mean he's possibly showing signs of schizophrenia.) They're speculating he didn't take his meds as he should and the symptoms flared. I am now off the fence and really do think RA is BG.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This. It doesn’t make sense for the D to NOT take a plea if they believe RA is innocent. RA is not OJ, who is going to keep paying the lawyers millions regardless. The D is taking a huge pay cut, so there is really nothing to benefit from staying with RA/not encouraging him to take a plea unless they truly believe he is innocent. There is zero financial incentive for the D, and obviously there is no career incentive for the D-considering all of the hate they are getting from many in the public, and especially the accusations by JG of gross negligence (regardless of whether you agree with her or not). Lebrato also thought he was innocent, and alluded to the rarity of the situation (ie, of defense attorneys getting a client they truly believe is innocent).

JMO.

Has the State even offered a plea deal? I don't believe they have or will.

Lebrato walked back his "I believe Defendant Allen is innocent" in his first interview to "Defendant Allen is innocent until proven guilty as all defendants are". Big change in his claim from one interview to the next.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

3.048 meters.
Well, they were recording the meetings but stopped before it got to court. Which indicates to me that they were in the wrong to do that. The P also directed the ISP to violate APRA rules and he also viewed ex parte files. With that said, I think there would be a lot of temptation to learn what he said to his atty.

How did the P direct the ISP to violate APRA rules, I'm not familiar with this happening?

 

[Boxer]

I would guess that R&B saw their client RA less than 10 times during his incarceration at Westville. I hope we do find out how many visits they personally made.

R&B are busy guys, they can't drive that far, it's not convenient as they stated in their many Motions to Transfer.

jmo

Agree.
MOO weekly visit in person and few pjone calls woukd be minumum for such a huge case.

RA had been at Westville 13 months when the D fiked their motion. Its not unreasonable to move him closer if there is a safe place to move him to.

If he's the killer, that would appear to be the case.

I remember that too. Was that the same location where he was photographed in front of the BG sketch? I wonder what that photo would look like if behind him had been the still from Libby's phone rather than any of those dumb sketches.

Agree, the still was the best option.

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

If RA was one of these people, how did he manage all those years working as a pharmacy tech? Did he draw anybody's attention to his severe mental health condition? There's a difference between having an antisocial/grumpy/rotten personality, knowing the difference between right/wrong and being mentally unstable and incoherent. AJMO

I have no comment on RA’s specific situation but I think this really simplifies and stigmatises mental health. Someone could absolutely manage well, hold a job and not be identifiable to the general public as having a severe mental health condition if they are appropriately medicated and treated- as might be the case outside of jail. That same person could then manage very differently, perhaps even ending up in full psychosis if their condition wasn’t managed appropriately in a jail setting.

This doesn’t mean the person could rely on a mental health defence- but it could possibly account for false confessions IN JAIL once not being appropriately treated for their previously well managed mental health needs (I’m not saying this is the case for RA).

You’d be surprised how many “high functioning” people in society (drs, lawyers, accountants, all kinds of professionals) live with complex and serious (but well managed) mental health conditions.

 

[vinayd]

IME the lawyer isn’t visiting with their defendant like we would think. The attorney for my brother In law has seen him maybe four times and it will be a year in June. Trial supposedly in a month. I’m on the state witness list. No one from the state has spoken with me yet.
Another time I had to testify for the state on a trespassing charge. Never met with the state until I walked in and had a five min meeting then took the stand.

 

[steeltowngirl]

It was 10 feet at least. Again its always extreme assumptions, now the P was lip reading the videos? That is more than a stretch IMO. Is everything in this case a giant conspiracy against RA?

They didn't have the video directed on the Defense, just pointed in the general direction of RA. Maybe 'they' (whoever they are) are talented enough to lip read someone with their head turned or their face down from 10 feet. IDK

MOO

Next up: mind-reading. RA will need to wear a tin foil hat in court.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Next up: mind-reading. RA will need to wear a tin foil hat in court.

Don't forget hypnosis.

 

[FrostedGlass]

How did the P direct the ISP to violate APRA rules, I'm not familiar with this happening?

On October 28, 2022, Ron Wilkins (Complainant), a reporter for the Lafayette Journal & Courier, submitted a public records request (both written and telephonically) to ISP for information regarding the arrest of a suspect in a murder case in Carroll County. The arrest occurred on October 26, 2022. Wilkins was seeking information mandated to be disclosed pursuant to Indiana code section 5-14-3-5. His request was denied on October 29.

ISP confirmed that Wilkins was denied the information until October 31, 2022 when ISP held a press conference and issued a press release. ISP argues it was “under the direction” of the county prosecutor and that any court records were sealed.

ISP also cites the local prosecutor and presiding judge as factors in the delay. While that matter is being addressed in other opinions, it is notable that APRA’s daily log requirement for law enforcement is not a judicial record.

CONCLUSION
Based on the foregoing, it is the opinion of this office that
the daily log information required by the Access to Public
Records Act should have been made available on demand no
later than 24 hours after the suspect’s arrest.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

 

[snooptroop88]

Let's say BG/RA(?) could enter a state of violent clinical mental crisis (?? not sure how to label it) when certain triggers are met. Okay. So it had never occurred to me someone severely ill ("mental crisis"?) could have committed this crime, but profilers are now actively telling me this is a realistic possibility, someone in such a state could still have done it. I don't know that I agree with that, but I suppose it's possible. But even they're acknowledging that someone that profoundly ill would tend to be an unorganized killer. But here's the scary thing for me: They're emphasizing that they see elements of both organized and unorganized in the crime. Now, I've always had issues with the fact that I view BG as a heap of evil chaos, but the crime itself had to have been pretty well organized for him to slip through as long as he has. And he had weapons. That's an "organized" element, so even if BG is severely mentally ill at that moment, the profilers are still entertaining the notion that he could have done this. If they're telling me that the severely ill (experiencing "mental crisis") & triggered BG could still have done this, well, I'd previously viewed RA's mental health issues (provided they're real) as something that would almost certainly bar him from commission of the crime. They're saying no, though. I've already seen plenty that has made me come to believe RA is BG. Now I am even more certain, regardless of his consumption of poop.

 

[FromGermany1]

Let's say BG/RA(?) could enter a state of violent clinical mental crisis (?? not sure how to label it) when certain triggers are met. Okay. So it had never occurred to me someone clinically insane ("mental crisis"?) could have committed this crime, but profilers are now actively telling me this is a realistic possibility, someone in such a state could still have done it. I don't know that I agree with that, but I suppose it's possible. But even they're acknowledging that someone that profoundly ill would tend to be an unorganized killer. But here's the scary thing for me: They're emphasizing that they see elements of both organized and unorganized in the crime. Now, I've always had issues with the fact that I view BG as a heap of evil chaos, but the crime itself had to have been pretty well organized for him to slip through as long as he has. And he had weapons. That's an "organized" element, so even if BG is severely mentally ill at that moment, the profilers are still entertaining the notion that he could have done this. If they're telling me that the clinically insane (experiencing "mental crisis") & triggered BG could still have done this, well, I'd previously viewed RA's insanity (provided it's real) as something that would almost certainly bar him from commission of the crime. They're saying no, though. I've already seen plenty that has made me come to believe RA is BG. Now I am even more certain, regardless of his consumption of poop.

I wouldn't understand, how a totally insane man would patiently wait for his victims to arrive at the MHB, checking his stock ticker a bit, while waiting, or sitting on a bench. If someone is that insane, that he wants to kill 2 big girls, in my eyes he has to be in a morbid rage BEFORE the attack already and has not to be in a stadium, where he behaves just like the calm, friendly CVS/pub guy, whom many of the locals described. (When I searched a news article for our Tricia, I found so many statements, which all said only good things about RA. Unfortunately I didn't find the one negative story about him again.) MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

I wouldn't understand, how a totally insane man would patiently wait for his victims to arrive at the MHB, checking his stock ticker a bit, while waiting, or sitting on a bench. If someone is that insane, that he wants to kill 2 big girls, in my eyes he has to be in a morbid rage BEFORE the attack already and has not to be in a stadium, where he behaves just like the calm, friendly CVS/pub guy, whom many of the locals described. (When I searched a news article for our Tricia, I found so many statements, which all said only good things about RA. Unfortunately I didn't find the one negative story about him again.) MOO

Totally agreed on this. I don't see how someone in such an unbalanced state could do this, seriously, and I'm still finding it difficult to swallow. But don't forget, RA's the one who mentioned the stock ticker. I don't know if the people on this program I watched said full-fledged "insane," either, but it was certainly suggestive of that. Maybe "mental crisis" would be the better term from lack of meds for something like schizophrenia (they definitely did mention schizophrenia).

If BG was talking to himself, I'd still be more inclined to think he had a mic. I've suspected the bulbous white object below his chin might be one. I admit it sounds far-fetched, but to me it's less far-fetched than someone in such a serious state of mental imbalance committing such an organized crime.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

As a practical matter, I think it is unlikely the Judge will rule to ban any and all confessions if you don't mention with precision all the various categories of confessions, the differing legal arguments applying to them and some kind of timeline.

Maybe such a timeline will be a separate exhibit, but then you still are missing the legal arguments.

To me the scope of the application is at p2 of the memo - it clearly refers to statements to guards and prisoners between mid March and June. IMO nothing else is included.



Whatever the reason not to mention the calls, I think it is hard to maintain that the defence is asking for their suppression here.

02c

If statements occurred ongoing from March to June but he only had a couple weeks of psychosis it should only apply to confessions given during that time, if at all. JMO
The timeline is too broad here JMO

 

[Knitty]

This thread is closed. Please continue at Thread #181