Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[sunshineray]

RBBM
It would be difficult to blame someone else if you were not there when it happened and therefore have no clue who did. JMO

And yet the Defense, who weren't there, has managed to publically blame four men by naming them in RA's FM filing...even though LE had cleared them years ago.

 

[snooptroop88]

D notes this "E.R." case for caselaw on their motion in behalf of "Rick," right? But the circumstances of that case are considerably different. "The court observed that although E.R. went to the police station on his own, he 'had to be buzzed into the area or taken into the area of a secure room.' And although the first officer told E.R. he could walk out of the interrogation-room door, the court found that statement, in this specific context, would not make a reasonable person feel free to leave." Decision again notes "The totality of objective circumstances surrounding the interrogation would make a reasonable person feel not free to end the questioning and leave." I think it's going to be quite a stretch to make it seem like RA's case would have made a reasonable person feel like he was not "free to leave." RA felt pretty free to curse and give orders. Decision notes this: "To start, the time and place of the interrogation were directed by Detective Greg O'Brien, who showed up at E.R.'s home, informed E.R. of the allegations against him, explained that he 'needed to interview' E.R., and 'asked him to come up to the police station.' Importantly, Detective O'Brien did not inform E.R. that any other time or place would suffice for the interview." This was not the situation with RA.

"Ruiz came to the police station shortly after getting dressed. Detective O'Brien then led E.R. through various sections of the station house: from the lobby through a door that required a key fob to enter; into a secured area containing the police squad room; 'up the elevator and the stairs'; through a second keyed door that was propped open; and into a small interview room with no windows and a single door, which the officers closed for the interrogation. Although he was not handcuffed or locked inside the interrogation room, E.R. was physically and visually cabined to the small compartment with officers positioned near the single, shut door." This is sounding significantly different from the RA situation. Decision continues: "...the circuitous path by which Detective O'Brien took E.R. into the interrogation room drew a labyrinthine exit route with many obstructions to egress. One of the doors Detective O'Brien led E.R. through required a key fob when heading toward the interrogation room. And nobody told E.R. that it was unlocked going the opposite direction."

AND wasn't "Rick's" wife waiting in the lobby? (checking) Did RA think they were going to lock him in and refuse to let him go back to the lobby? Just saying, when JG denies it-- not saying she will because how would I know (??)-- but it looks like she'd clearly have reasons to do so. This isn't "Denied, denied, denied!!" Some conspiracy of the evil State against Ricky, like he's Luke Skywalker or something.

 

[mrjitty]

I've seen a simulated walk through.. might be Gray Hughes.. might be someone else, but it was very well done and sealed the deal in my mind that it was VERY possible and likely that it was RA and only RA. The time at the CS was the longest worst part of the simulation. Plenty of time!

I just looked and it's Delphi- Richard Allen animated probable cause by Gray Hughes. It's from Nov 2022. He has a map and dots on the map to signify the various people listed in the AA. The 3 girls walking, the woman walking that saw RA, Abby and Libby, etc. He has the time at the top showing how long it takes the dots to move down the trail, the cars driving by that saw things at various times, etc. It is VERY clear one man could do this and have an hour at the CS and it shows it, not graphic at all, but it's still somber to know what those dots mean and just how long he's with them at the CS and it's just very well done. Look it up if you'd like to see the AA explained with a visual.

One of the interesting insights from mapping out the timeline (e.g per GH example), is that if RA is correct that he left by 1.30pm, then there must be 7 girls in 2 groups. Plus 2 bridge guys - one leaving just as one arrives. This raises a bunch of questions.

- Have the extra 3 girls ever been identified?
- RA never sees a Bridge Guy,
- the 3 (4?) juveniles don't see 2 bridge guys, or the other girls
- who else was on the trails between before 1.30?

I am guessing there is no other witness who sees a bridge guy before 1.30 or it would have been 'exculpatory evidence' for the Franks memo (and important). And it could be very important who RA did not see.

I'll be very interested how the timeline comes together at trial. I've always felt that if the prosecution can prove the meeting of RA and the 3 juvenile witnesses at 1.30pm entering the trails then it is inexorable that RA is bridge guy, even before the confession evidence.

 

[mrjitty]

To clarify, you think it’s irrelevant if true? Or a coincidence?

I do wonder if the Judge won't allow this kind of inquiry as too speculative. The prosecution might argue:

1. It's not clear any Rune was found on Abby's body (if I understand Turco correctly), let alone exactly the same one
2. BH's rune is drawn - not with sticks
3. BH has a confirmed alibi, which is not contradicted by any evidence
4. No evidence of who took the photo or when?

my 02c

 

[FrostedGlass]

Some will call this whole case delayed discovery. I know I'm still waiting. Frankly it gives me hope to see discovery being delayed; maybe the state is finding last second ironclad proof.

MOO
There were deadlines for discovery that have not been met and that's not a good thing if you want a fair trial that you can have trust in.

All the discovery dictated by the rule, from the time the girls' bodies were found until the D made their appearance, had a deadline. The link below states 30 days; it's been updated so I'm not sure if that was the same deadline in 2022.

The D called on the judge to set a deadline for Nov 1. 2023, which she did. Yet, they have just recently gotten discovery from the early days. This is just unreal! It continually keeps the D chasing their tails; some will think that's wonderful. Most anyone who is interested in a fair trial will not.

Sanctions in this case are laughable unless they are against the D.
A quote from the link:

(5)Sanctions. Any violation of this rule may result in a sanction deemed appropriate by the court, except as limited by rule.

Rule 2.5 - Discovery, Ind. R. Crim. P. 2.5 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Rule 2.5 - Discovery, Ind. R. Crim. P. 2.5, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

I believe the way the P dumped discovery on the D was intentional. Chaotic piecemeal intended to delay.
Look at all the discovery that was dumped on them just a month or so prior to them being taken off the case in October. The D missed months of working on the case; so they had all that catching up to do. Then the P and J decided to bring those charges against them. All these stumbling blocks that are being thrown out are so unnecessary if the P have as strong of a case as they say they do.

Here are a couple of excerpts from the article linked below.
[snips]
"According to defense attorneys Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin, between December 2022 and June 2023, the state turned over 16 hard drives, four flash drives and one disc of information related to the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German.

But they said in just the past three weeks, the prosecutor sent the defense team an additional 14 hard drives, five more flash drives and three more discs — a vast amount of new material that greatly increases the information defense attorneys must review prior to the upcoming trial."

Oct. 2, 2023

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

The defense team pointed to an overwhelming amount of discovery recently provided by the prosecutor in making the deadline request.

www.wthr.com

10/10/2023

Order Issued The Court having reviewed Defendant Allen's Motion for Discovery Deadline, the Court now orders the following: without objection by the State. The State of Indiana must produce all discovery to defense counsel on or before November 1, 2023. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/10/2023

 

[snooptroop88]

Question: Did they actually arrest him/RA at the end of the October 26th interrogation? That's the second interview. It looks like yes (but this is per the D, I can't find this confirmed elsewhere, at least yet).

Here's why I'm freaked out by that. Both of the Allens went there to pick up the vehicle, right? And I am guessing this was not pre-arranged by the police. And the wife's waiting in the lobby. This would expect me to think (?) the police were not originally planning on arresting him. Not sure, though, but I would guess so. This makes me wonder if he made some whopper of a statement in that interview/interrogation. (researching)

 

[vinayd]

I do believe the State should also have sanctions when it's all said and done. I think that is fair and following the law.
What I am trying to wrap my brain around is this part of that article:

“The Defense is concerned that there will be a continual drip, drip, drip of evidence (much which could be exculpatory in nature) unless a discovery deadline is set by the Court,”

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

So the discovery that is late is the entire investigation of 5.5 years. Let's say all evidence against RA is on 3 of the hard drives. Shouldn't they concentrate on that to build the defense? Instead of asking for every single tip and interview to possibly-maybe-hopefully find something exculpatory?

 

[vinayd]

Question: Did they actually arrest him/RA at the end of the October 26th interrogation? That's the second interview. It looks like yes (but this is per the D, I can't find this confirmed elsewhere, at least yet).

Here's why I'm freaked out by that. Both of the Allens went there to pick up the vehicle, right? And I am guessing this was not pre-arranged by the police. And the wife's waiting in the lobby. This would expect me to think (?) the police were not originally planning on arresting him. Not sure, though, but I would guess so. This makes me wonder if he made some whopper of a statement in that interview/interrogation. (researching)

It explains in the motion that the car was taken on 10/13. The Allen's then began calling to see when they could pick their vehicle up. They were told they can pick it up on 10/26 and they took RA to the room for a few follow up questions and made KA stay in the lobby. Yes he was arrested after this and veh was not released from what I can tell. Not sure where it is today.

 

[FrostedGlass]

A little update on MW's case. The motion to dismissed was denied. There are new hearing dates; there is no indication as to who requested them. There is also a motion in limine scheduled on 06/04 hearing and the jury trial is rescheduled to 06/25.

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

41D03-2311-CM-001119

 

[FrostedGlass]

I do believe the State should also have sanctions when it's all said and done. I think that is fair and following the law.
What I am trying to wrap my brain around is this part of that article:

“The Defense is concerned that there will be a continual drip, drip, drip of evidence (much which could be exculpatory in nature) unless a discovery deadline is set by the Court,”

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

So the discovery that is late is the entire investigation of 5.5 years. Let's say all evidence against RA is on 3 of the hard drives. Shouldn't they concentrate on that to build the defense? Instead of asking for every single tip and interview to possibly-maybe-hopefully find something exculpatory?

If I had 2 murder sentences hanging over my head, I'd sure want my attys to review all the evidence against me. How would they ever know what evidence is where unless they look?

I wouldn't want my D to just count on whatever the P decided to send to them. Look at all the discovery that was left out until recently.

 

[girlhasnoname]

A little update on MW's case. The motion to dismissed was denied. There are new hearing dates; there is no indication as to who requested them. There is also a motion in limine scheduled on 06/04 hearing and the jury trial is rescheduled to 06/25.

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

41D03-2311-CM-001119

Thanks for linking that FG, someone had asked me to when I read posts the next day and forgot. It was denied not by Judge Gull, but a Special Prosecutor.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thanks for linking that FG, someone had asked me to when I read posts the next day and forgot. It was denied not by Judge Gull, but a Special Prosecutor.

That's good to note. MW is a completely different case, different county and different P, D, J.
Prosecutor = Lindsey Holden-Kay
Defense = Michael J Kyle
Judge = Douglas B. Cummins

 

[girlhasnoname]

Question: Did they actually arrest him/RA at the end of the October 26th interrogation? That's the second interview. It looks like yes (but this is per the D, I can't find this confirmed elsewhere, at least yet).

Here's why I'm freaked out by that. Both of the Allens went there to pick up the vehicle, right? And I am guessing this was not pre-arranged by the police. And the wife's waiting in the lobby. This would expect me to think (?) the police were not originally planning on arresting him. Not sure, though, but I would guess so. This makes me wonder if he made some whopper of a statement in that interview/interrogation. (researching)

I think LE followed up on some of the answers RA gave in the Oct 13th statement and maybe found some new information in the process too. They invited RA back on the 26th, it was a 2 + hour interview we've only seen snippets from the Defense (of course) not the entire interview. RA gave as good as he got IMO.

It's interesting how his main concern was his wife ("you can f with me, but you'd better not f with her", maybe they were threatening a charge against her?) and he never said I'm innocent or I didn't kill Abby & Libby from what we've seen.

I think it ended up with Allen getting himself tripped up on his lies and they had their PC to arrest him at that point. I do believe they knew RA would be arrested.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

That's good to note. MW is a completely different case, different county and different P, D, J.
Prosecutor = Lindsey Holden-Kay
Defense = Michael J Kyle
Judge = Douglas B. Cummins

Agree, maybe there won't be all the preconceived bias with his case.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Agree, maybe there won't be all the preconceived bias with his case.

With no cameras in the courtroom and no docs to read, who knows what goes on behind closed doors?
We can be like ostriches with our heads in the sand, living happily ever after whatever verdict is reached.
Life is certainly easier that way. IMO

 

[susiQ]

Some will call this whole case delayed discovery. I know I'm still waiting. Frankly it gives me hope to see discovery being delayed; maybe the state is finding last second ironclad proof.

RSABBM
Finding or manufacturing?? JMO

 

[AugustWest]

I do believe the State should also have sanctions when it's all said and done. I think that is fair and following the law.
What I am trying to wrap my brain around is this part of that article:

“The Defense is concerned that there will be a continual drip, drip, drip of evidence (much which could be exculpatory in nature) unless a discovery deadline is set by the Court,”

Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop 'drip, drip, drip' of evidence

So the discovery that is late is the entire investigation of 5.5 years. Let's say all evidence against RA is on 3 of the hard drives. Shouldn't they concentrate on that to build the defense? Instead of asking for every single tip and interview to possibly-maybe-hopefully find something exculpatory?

How would they know the information in the withheld discovery didn't contain something extremely relevant to the case? Do they simply take the word of the persons who are trying to put RA away forever that there is no relevant information in the rest of the discovery? Why would anyone do that?

 

[girlhasnoname]

With no cameras in the courtroom and no docs to read, who knows what goes on behind closed doors?
We can be like ostriches with our heads in the sand, living happily ever after whatever verdict is reached.
Life is certainly easier that way. IMO

Hah, I'm no Ostrich FG, but thanks for the comparison. We were speaking of MW's case, do we know that there won't be cameras or no docs to read in this case since it is a different Judge, and Prosecutor?

moo

 

[FrostedGlass]

RSABBM
Finding or manufacturing?? JMO

I want to see this filing from yesterday:

04/16/2024

Witness and/or Exhibit List Filed Supplemental Witness List and Exhibit Notice 2.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana

 

[vinayd]

How would they know the information in the withheld discovery didn't contain something extremely relevant to the case? Do they simply take the word of the persons who are trying to put RA away forever that there is no relevant information in the rest of the discovery? Why would anyone do that?

I do understand that is their due diligence. Just why not the MAIN evidence that points to their client? Start there then work your way backward idk. Also if the judge has made it clear it won't be let in they should move on. Well I guess they are. To the 2nd confession. Hope to see some response from the state today. Yesterday's filing said more discovery was being sent over & I wonder what that will be.