Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #184

[FrostedGlass]

Justice on trial: Public must have full access to Delphi murder proceedings

Editor’s note: All evidence cited here can be found in released court documents online or by searching for “Delphi Trial Docs” on Facebook.

www.journalgazette.net

That's a very good article.

Thanks for posting it.

 

[sunshineray]

The issue of confessions and psych issues were known to all parties prior to the first FM.

I'll also note that the popular belief that there are "30 confessions or statements against interest by RA" is based upon a Defense filing that used numbers in the context of witness count ... which is not the same as a confession incident count. We remain in the dark as to context; were these incidents within one week of obvious psychosis, or consistent over time?

Appreciate your view that there's likely an appellate strategy at play here. Many are of the mind that the Defense has no technical strategy behind moving off a speedy trial schedule other than "the sloppy incompetent defense is not ready for trial". What we heard at the last hearing was that the Defense is bringing a 2-week alternate theory including (Auger-prepped) FBI-related evidence/witnesses. The Defense's ask was for trial days time, they did not ask for a trial continuance; it was offered by the Court as the only calendar option for extended trial days. (But I'd not disagree that speedy trial vs more time is a strategic choice of the D's.)

I also wonder if the Defense will also seek an interlocutory-appeal a negative decision on their motion to suppress all confessions ... bring it back to the Diener safekeeping decision with no hearing/no counsel for RA. The D has already advised the Court a recusal motion is being readied. Chicken/egg on interlocutory vs SCOIN appeal.

JMHO

The only timeline we know for RA's confessions, that I've heard reported, are the ones marked by the phone call to his wife and mother and his subsequent meltdown right afterwards.

 

[snarast]

That's a very good article.

Thanks for posting it.

On that note, I want to thank all the prolific posters in this thread - the thread is really a paragon of websleuthing

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The issue of confessions and psych issues were known to all parties prior to the first FM.

I'll also note that the popular belief that there are "30 confessions or statements against interest by RA" is based upon a Defense filing that used numbers in the context of witness count ... which is not the same as a confession incident count. We remain in the dark as to context; were these incidents within one week of obvious psychosis, or consistent over time?

Appreciate your view that there's likely an appellate strategy at play here. Many are of the mind that the Defense has no technical strategy behind moving off a speedy trial schedule other than "the sloppy incompetent defense is not ready for trial". What we heard at the last hearing was that the Defense is bringing a 2-week alternate theory including (Auger-prepped) FBI-related evidence/witnesses. The Defense's ask was for trial days time, they did not ask for a trial continuance; it was offered by the Court as the only calendar option for extended trial days. (But I'd not disagree that speedy trial vs more time is a strategic choice of the D's.)

I also wonder if the Defense will also seek an interlocutory-appeal a negative decision on their motion to suppress all confessions ... bring it back to the Diener safekeeping decision with no hearing/no counsel for RA. The D has already advised the Court a recusal motion is being readied. Chicken/egg on interlocutory vs SCOIN appeal.

JMHO

There’s no doubt that the defense is focused on appeals, that is their only chance of getting RA off.
It’s true, we know very little of what the prosecution has in terms of evidence. It’s also true, because the defense has chosen to try this case in public, that we know pretty much everything the defense has.
In my opinion, the defense is ignoring RA’s confessions, so no plea deals, so they can get to trial and invariably lose, then hit the appeals court, where they will try their darndest to have a double child murderer freed on a legal technicality.

 

[Boxer]

Though an easy assumption to make based on the P’s crafty wording of the PCA, IMO it is inaccurate to say “the girls and RA agree they saw each other.”

Per the PCA, 3 of a group of 4 girls (not 3 girls only as earlier presumed) represent they passed “a man” near Freedom Bridge. One of the girls, after having already seen L’s video, notes similarity with the man in L’s video - assumedly BG. But no solid proof yet that RA = BG.

RA says in the PCA that he “saw” (not passed) a group of 3 girls (not 4, or not 3-4) “at” (not near) Freedom Bridge. He doesn’t state how close he was to these girls, only that he didn’t stop nor did he speak with them. He does opine that one was taller (IMO vague as in taller than what or who?) and had a dark hair color.

It’s important IMO to note that, while the group of 4 girls can be roughly timestamped due to BB’s sighting of them on the overpass as she drove under (probably about 1:42 or 1:43), the info on the other timestamp of the bench photo (at 1:26) did not present until 3 years later in 2020 (per the Search Warrant Affadavit) when LE re-interviewed BW who was the 1 of 4 girls who took the pics. She is the only person IIRC of the group who remembers 3 yrs later that they took the bench photo then shortly thereafter encountered the man.

Admittedly if we wholeheartedly go with the P’s full timeline which requires this encounter to have occurred later than 1:26 but prior to 1:42, and we’re 100% sure that DD’s notation of 1330-1530 means 1:30 arrival and 3:30 departure vs just on trails sometime btween 1:30-3:30…then MOO yes we’d conclude the group of girls & RA are describing the same encounter. However if anyone is open to consider that RA could’ve come through earlier or that the group of girls could’ve come through later, there’s enough variance in both parties’ descriptors to leave doubt that these parties saw each other. RA could’ve seen different girls and the group of 4 surely passed some man, possibly even BG, but not necessarily RA. I’m thinking specifically about RA states seeing 3 not 4 people, and the girls describing someone who was no more than 5’10 as opposed to very short, with varying color clothing and no one noticing the unique waist item, him being on the phone, the heavy layering of clothing, a gun, or the noteworthy hat?? ***Has RA’s version ever been confirmed that indeed one of this group of girls truly was taller and had dark hair?

All JMO

It was Richard Allen.
Defense using every trick to try and erase reality. IMO

 

[WildHuncher]

It was Richard Allen.
Defense using every trick to try and erase reality. IMO

Yep. There’s going with the obvious preponderance of evidence and there’s throwing out every single brick in the wall one at a time by any trick in the book.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It was Richard Allen.
Defense using every trick to try and erase reality. IMO

So what are these defense "tricks" that I'm hearing about?

 

[FrostedGlass]

There’s no doubt that the defense is focused on appeals, that is their only chance of getting RA off.
It’s true, we know very little of what the prosecution has in terms of evidence. It’s also true, because the defense has chosen to try this case in public, that we know pretty much everything the defense has.
In my opinion, the defense is ignoring RA’s confessions, so no plea deals, so they can get to trial and invariably lose, then hit the appeals court, where they will try their darndest to have a double child murderer freed on a legal technicality.

But isn't that what good attys do? = lay down the foundation in case of appeal?

If there is a legal technicality, we know where the blame lies and it's not at the feet of the defense team.
We can't allow our constitutional rights to be trampled.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

So what are these defense "tricks" that I'm hearing about?

One is leaking the crime scene pictures.
I believe the Odinist angle is a manufactured story for the
Youtube spooks.
The Franks memo alleginhnone man couñd not kill two cornered teen girls becauseit woild be too hard for one man with "one man with his dexterity."

Also as an aside on behalf of Richard Allen they don't appear to have visited him as they should, which is cruel or get him mental evaluation as they should.

I think the attorneys for RA should have immediately had him evaluated after his eating of documents, and this woild have given RA six respite months to get back into knowñedgable engagement with his defense.

 

[FrostedGlass]

One is leaking the crime scene pictures.
I believe the Odinist angle is a manufactured story for the
Youtube spooks.
The Franks memo alleginhnone man couñd not kill two cornered teen girls becauseit woild be too hard for one man with "one man with his dexterity."

Also as an aside on behalf of Richard Allen they don't appear to have visited him as they should, which is cruel or get him mental evaluation as they should.

I think the attorneys for RA should have immediately had him evaluated after his eating of documents, and this woild have given RA six respite months to get back into knowñedgable engagement with his defense.

If leaking was a trick of some kind, it sure didn't benefit them.

I don't think I've ever seen an actual timeframe for when Ra was under doctors' care but I've assumed that he was all the time he was at Westville (and probably in Wabash).

I agree that the D should have had him evaluated ... by a doctor outside of the prison.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

RA says in the PCA that he “saw” (not passed) a group of 3 girls (not 4, or not 3-4) “at” (not near) Freedom Bridge. He doesn’t state how close he was to these girls, only that he didn’t stop nor did he speak with them. He does opine that one was taller (IMO vague as in taller than what or who?) and had a dark hair color.

It’s important IMO to note that, while the group of 4 girls can be roughly timestamped due to BB’s sighting of them on the overpass as she drove under (probably about 1:42 or 1:43), the info on the other timestamp of the bench photo (at 1:26) did not present until 3 years later in 2020 (per the Search Warrant Affadavit) when LE re-interviewed BW who was the 1 of 4 girls who took the pics. She is the only person IIRC of the group who remembers 3 yrs later that they took the bench photo then shortly thereafter encountered the man.

RSBM/BBM
3 girls state they passed RA obviously seeing him and speaking to him. He had to be close enough for one to say “hi” and they were going different directions on the trial so one would reasonably believe the girls were truthful in stating they passed each other.
The statement that the evidence was presented to public does not mean it took 3 years for LE to acquire it. This is flawed logic as we know evidence was not given to public in order of discovery and much has been withheld for many years and some still withheld.
IMO The fact is the witnesses remembered enough immediately after the crime was discovered that they made a press release of RA’s image within 30 hours after the discovery of the crime. His image being named a person of interest then later a suspect.
All MOO

 

[EOA]

RSBM/BBM
3 girls state they passed RA obviously seeing him and speaking to him. He had to be close enough for one to say “hi” and they were going different directions on the trial so one would reasonably believe the girls were truthful in stating they passed each other.
The statement that the evidence was presented to public does not mean it took 3 years for LE to acquire it. This is flawed logic as we know evidence was not given to public in order of discovery and much has been withheld for many years and some still withheld.
IMO The fact is the witnesses remembered enough immediately after the crime was discovered that they made a press release of RA’s image within 30 hours after the discovery of the crime. His image being named a person of interest then later a suspect.
All MOO

The affadavit for Search Warrant says “an interview was conducted in 2020 with BW,” one of the girls in the group of 4, who “showed investigators pictures she took on her phone of MHB and a bench east of Freedom Bridge” both of which were timestamped. Unless I’m misinterpreting something here it sure looks like IMO that this evidence was discovered for the first time in 2020. It wasn’t released until 2023 or 2024 in my opinion.

Throughout the SWA, all references are to: a man, the man, or he who resembled the man in L’s video - never did any of these girls identify him as RA, the guy on the left in the lineup, the guy who lives over on Whiteman St, nor the CVS worker. BW states a couple of sentences later the man was taller than her and she came up to his shoulder, so yes the man these 4 girls passed was very close to them, & close enough for one of them to greet him. BW also states the man’s hands were in his pocket. I know nothing of BW’s age or height in 2017.

RA’s 2017 interview with DD states that he saw 3 girls at FB. He mentions 1 girl as taller with dark hair. He does not say in this ‘17 interview that any girl spoke to him, how far away they were, nor what he was wearing that day. RA does state he was watching a stock ticker, assumedly from a handheld device meaning his hands were not in pockets.

JMO but if you ignore that this encounter supposedly happened per LE’s timeline, I see as many or more differences here than similarities. Of course following LE’s timeline significantly increases the likelihood it was the same encounter both parties are attempting to describe despite the differences.

I believe RA is guilty in some portion of this crime. He will IMO have trouble overcoming the confessions, the unspent cartridge, the lack of alibi, and the phone data whether present or absent. However I think the D can cast moderate amounts of doubt on the timeline and from the witness observations thus MOO the P shouldn’t delve too deeply here and focus on the first 3-4 arguments/evidence pieces.

 

[Boxer]

If leaking was a trick of some kind, it sure didn't benefit them.

I don't think I've ever seen an actual timeframe for when Ra was under doctors' care but I've assumed that he was all the time he was at Westville (and probably in Wabash).

I agree that the D should have had him evaluated ... by a doctor outside of the prison.

MOO in my oponion they bloviate but don't provide real service.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The affadavit for Search Warrant says “an interview was conducted in 2020 with BW,” one of the girls in the group of 4, who “showed investigators pictures she took on her phone of MHB and a bench east of Freedom Bridge” both of which were timestamped. Unless I’m misinterpreting something here it sure looks like IMO that this evidence was discovered for the first time in 2020. It wasn’t released until 2023 or 2024 in my opinion.

Throughout the SWA, all references are to: a man, the man, or he who resembled the man in L’s video - never did any of these girls identify him as RA, the guy on the left in the lineup, the guy who lives over on Whiteman St, nor the CVS worker. BW states a couple of sentences later the man was taller than her and she came up to his shoulder, so yes the man these 4 girls passed was very close to them, & close enough for one of them to greet him. BW also states the man’s hands were in his pocket. I know nothing of BW’s age or height in 2017.

RA’s 2017 interview with DD states that he saw 3 girls at FB. He mentions 1 girl as taller with dark hair. He does not say in this ‘17 interview that any girl spoke to him, how far away they were, nor what he was wearing that day. RA does state he was watching a stock ticker, assumedly from a handheld device meaning his hands were not in pockets.

JMO but if you ignore that this encounter supposedly happened per LE’s timeline, I see as many or more differences here than similarities. Of course following LE’s timeline significantly increases the likelihood it was the same encounter both parties are attempting to describe despite the differences.

I believe RA is guilty in some portion of this crime. He will IMO have trouble overcoming the confessions, the unspent cartridge, the lack of alibi, and the phone data whether present or absent. However I think the D can cast moderate amounts of doubt on the timeline and from the witness observations thus MOO the P shouldn’t delve too deeply here and focus on the first 3-4 arguments/evidence pieces.

EOA. Can you please link the document? I don’t see 2020 listed in the copies I have found online. Thank you.

 

[EOA]

EOA. Can you please link the document? I don’t see 2020 listed in the copies I have found online. Thank you.

Here’s the one I have - see the first full paragraph on page 2 of 88:

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Here’s the one I have - see the first full paragraph on page 2 of 88:

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

Thank you!

 

[sunshineray]

But isn't that what good attys do? = lay down the foundation in case of appeal?

If there is a legal technicality, we know where the blame lies and it's not at the feet of the defense team.
We can't allow our constitutional rights to be trampled.

MOO

I think for me it's the terrible thought that RA's attorneys may be disregarding a client's wishes to plead guilty. The sheer number of times RA has reportedly confessed makes me think that. I cannot fathom that RA's lawyers haven't had numerous conversations with their client to stay silent, yet it seems RA has continued to confess. If it were a true mental health issue at the heart of the matter I'd also think his attorneys would be vigorously addressing that, such as filing to move him to a more appropriate facility to address that. Instead they filed to downgrade his mental health care by moving him to a county jail system. I don't trust the D has RA's best interests at heart nor Lady Justice.I think it's wins/losses and notoriety that is utmost in their plans. AJMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think for me it's the terrible thought that RA's attorneys may be disregarding a client's wishes to plead guilty. The sheer number of times RA has reportedly confessed makes me think that. I cannot fathom that RA's lawyers haven't had numerous conversations with their client to stay silent, yet it seems RA has continued to confess. If it were a true mental health issue at the heart of the matter I'd also think his attorneys would be vigorously addressing that, such as filing to move him to a more appropriate facility to address that. Instead they filed to downgrade his mental health care by moving him to a county jail system. I don't trust the D has RA's best interests at heart nor Lady Justice.I think it's wins/losses and notoriety that is utmost in their plans. AJMO

I can't think of one reason why pleading guilty would be a benefit to RA. He'll only get more of the same.

Articles promoting solitary confinement for mental health issues are hard to find. All the ones I've found say it's very detrimental. I tend to believe them. By all accounts, RA was functioning well before he was sent to prison. As for medical treatment, I think it's possible that whatever they were giving him brought on the state of mind he was in. Some drugs promoted to make you better have really, really bad side effects. Some last for quite a while.

His attys have tried multiple times to get him out of those hell holes with no luck.
Maybe this time will be successful.

Maybe his attys should have just accepted the judge's decision and walked away.
Think about how that whole scenario would have played out.

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you!

I don't want to assume how that witnesses will go at trial, but it does seem like the 'juvenile girls' will identify the man they saw just after 1.26pm as Bridge Guy.

One reason this is significant is we can the pretty much infer that the man BB saw must also be Bridge Guy - even if she differs on some details. Otherwise there must have been a second Bridge Guy around which is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Alan saying he saw the 3 girls might be his most critical mistake.

IMO

 

[snooptroop88]

Did RA wonder if two of the girls he saw that day on the trails might have been the victims? He's out on the trails that day where two young girls are abducted/missing/murdered. And he saw young girls on the trail. And he saw more than two, yes, but people split up on trails, so just wondering if he was concerned these girls he saw might have been involved. He said he couldn't give much of a description of the girls he saw, think he said one had brown hair.

I doubt the public knew much at that point, they probably had no idea of the est time of death. Wasn't he worried two of these girls could actually have been themselves the victims? Really, really wish we knew more about that interview w/DD. And when I look for the date, I can't find it anywhere, best is "Feb 2017." If RA couldn't "get much of a description," and they probably didn't know the est time of death yet/maybe hadn't even discovered the victims yet, I would think RA would fear two of those girls were perhaps themselves the missing victims. But there's nothing with RA mentioning that in DD's notes.

DD follow up question: "Who were the three girls walking in the area of Freedom Bridge?" This sounds like Dulin knows the girls RA saw were not the actual victims, but Dulin has more info than RA at that point. Didn't RA voice any concern on this issue if the interview was on the 14th? If he had voiced concern, would this be the kind of thing that would make it to DD's notes? And if the interview was later than the 14th, shouldn't it have been earlier, since RA, supposedly not knowing the situation yet, should have been concerned? They have the date for that interview, I'm sure. There's some reason why it's nowhere to be seen. The tip line wasn't set up until Feb 16. If he waited to call the tip line, he must have been pretty certain two of the girls he saw weren't the missing/victims. He didn't get a good look at the girls he saw, which makes me wonder how he knew. Interactive Timeline | The Delphi Murders