Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #184

[sunshineray]

Well said.
RA’s mental health in the eyes of the defense team varies greatly depending on how they need to use it at that moment.
RA’s mental health is being managed by the DOC. I don’t recall the defense ever requesting RA be seen by another mental health professional, except the psychologist they hoped would testify to their liking at trial. They must be satisfied with the care he’s getting.

Double post DBM

 

[steeltowngirl]

I didn't interpret that as saying he refused medication; I read it as saying they didn't need to force it on him.
Just because one agrees to take a medication does not guarantee no side effects.

Can you expand on your thought? Wondering if he received voluntary meds only, or no meds at all (docs determined they were not needed / else he refused.)

Thinking involuntary meds means he refused. They would only have to force if he refused.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Can you expand on your thought? Wondering if he received voluntary meds only, or no meds at all (docs determined they were not needed / else he refused.)

Thinking involuntary meds means he refused. They would only have to force if he refused.

Since they decided "involuntary" was unnecessary, there was no need to force treatment.
I think he may have agreed to take some meds.
I think those meds may have caused side effects.

"Involuntary treatment," for example, may happen if a person is in the middle of a breakdown, out of his mind, unable to make a medical decision.
MOO and I am NAP

Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary,

 

[sunshineray]

It's been my experience that doctors often prescribe meds for depression. We don't know if he took any before incarceration. His attys presumed that he was medicated and IMO, his actions reflect that. He appeared to be deteriorating physically but still mentally ok; then he wasn't. If he wasn't on drugs, and went off the deep end in such a dramatic way, then I'm looking at solitary confinement to be the cause.

I can't find my other safe keeping links atm.

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/ALLEN-MOVE-PRISON-REQUEST-1.pdf

12. To further complicate matters, Mr. Allen has suffered from depression dating back to his early years. Upon his incarceration, Mr. Allen was presumably evaluated and medicated by prison medical staff. Up until a visit with Mr. Allen on April 4, 2023, counsel for Mr. Allen found him to be polite, communicative with great eye contact, generally responsive to our questions and exhibiting a good sense of humor on occasion in spite of his false arrest and circumstances. However, Mr. Allen's deteriorating physical condition has been observed by Counsel dating back to the beginning of the new year. As recently as Friday, April 24th, 2023, Attorney Andrew Baldwin met with Mr. Allen with optimistic news about the direction of the case, and Mr. Allen was inquisitive about the information, was thankful about the information and optimistic about the information. Only ten days later (April 3, 2023), Attorneys for Mr. Allen observed a steep decline in Mr. Allen's demeanor, ability to communicate, ability to comprehend and ability to assist in his defense. Simply put, this version of Richard Allen was a very different version than counsel for Mr. Allen had interacted with over the past five months. Mr. Allen appeared to be suffering from various psychotic symptoms which counsel would describe as schizophrenic and delusional. Counsel further believes that in our April 4, 2023 interaction, Mr. Allen seems to be suffering from memory loss and is demonstrating an overall inability to communicate rationally with counsel and family members. Counsel experienced, these symptoms, firsthand, upon visiting Mr. Allen on Monday, April 4th, 2023;

IMO and JMO respectfully, it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse saying the DOC doctors gave RA drugs before he started his bizarre behaviors of eating documents, feces, drinking toilet water and smashing electronics provided to him. We don't know what other things he may have done causing harm to himself or others. A person involved in doing those kinds of things, IMO, needs medical intervention desperately. Whether RA was taking meds before he was arrested would have been addressed prior to his transfer to Westville. I've not seen any reports of that but HIPA is enforced nationwide so I've never expected to see reporting on that. The D did say something about his entrance evaluation into Westville not being through enough but there's no way for the public to confirm that. AJMO

 

[Jade]

I’m fairly confident that RA is BG on the evidence we have seen. But I want to try to understand the alternative. For those of us who are more leaning towards the Odinist theory, is the below a reasonable summary?

Odinist theory
D Allegations - EF was on the bridge with the two girls. EF spat on the girls and put antlers above Libby’s head. More than one person was involved in the murders and likely more than two. The crime scene showed evidence of Odinist sacrifice and the parties allegedly involved published images on social media that reflected the crime scene in various ways (the setting, runes made from sticks, two females lying on ground in woods). Odinist party have shaky Alibis and were not investigated properly.

Odinist timeline
RA is returning from High Bridge and sees 3 girls at Freedom Bridge at around 1:30pm. He continues to his car and leaves. MOO we don’t actually know which direction RA was going when passing girls, but hope that this can be clarified. Also if this is the timeline where was RA after 1:30pm? Alibi would be good.

BB arrives, walks to bridge and sees a man on the bridge - she describes him as younger man with pouffy brown hair - think we mainly agree that BG is the person on the bridge. For the Odinist theory to fit this must be EF? MOO possible if EF alibi provided for that day is unverified. Does EF appearance align with BG?

BB turns around and walks away from bridge. Passes Abby and Libby.

BG gets off the bridge and A & L go onto bridge. BG follows and orders them down the hill likely at gunpoint. BG controls both girls and forces them to cross the creek. MOO from what we know of EF this seems unlikely, perhaps a second person was down the hill.

Other Odinists had parked at the cemetery and walked down to the crime scene to wait for BG and the girls. They are going to sacrifice A&L because Abby’s mum had a relationship with a man of colour. They know Abby and Libby will be there because?? MOO this is where there are problems with this version. Motive doesn’t make sense to me, and how did they know A &L would be there? I’ve now got a reasonable idea of the crime scene and not convinced it was more than one person or that it was necessarily Odinism symbolism, although also not ruling it out. Alleged Odinists have reasonable alibis, but there are questions around EF alibi. Also not sure that there is evidence BH and EF hung out?

Depending on the Franks Memo for legit evidence is futile, imo.

A FM is to address the LE search warrant legitimacy.

The Odin theory is pointless to the FM as it was not needed to be included in the search warrant as LE doesn’t have to portray every alternate theory to obtain a search warrant.

Then there’s no real attempt in the Franks Memo by the Defense to show their client as innocent such as a firm alibi or other corroborating data that specifically addresses RA and the search warrants, imo.

Didn’t the Defense have to file a supplement because they left out the evidence of my client isn’t guilty?


Furthermore the convoluted FM portrays EF telling his sister that he was on the trail and the bridge with those girls when they were murdered.

[…]

I am in a lot of trouble. I am going away for a long time. I was on that trail and that bridge with those girls when they were murdered. There were two other people there with me when it happened.

I spit on one of the girls

(after they were killed) (Emphasis added)

[…]

FM page 93

The FM goes on to accusing EF of lying too while at the same time saying he is of diminished mental capacity.

And continues to say that EF confessed to being a part of the killing of the girls on the trails.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host


Where’s the hollering EF got it incorrect in his confession; he's innocent?

The girls were not murdered on the trails or bridge. It was down the hill across the creek on quiet private property.

FM says EF’s DNA was taken.

There would have been a LE action to detain EF by now if his DNA had actually been at the crime scene.

The FM is scant in details to protect their client’s allegedly unlawful search and long on wasting time investigating other parties which isn’t even their job, imo.


all imo

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, but the key word:
"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary” medication to treat Allen’s symptoms"

I think the "they" here is the medical staff. It's not the P's call whether a incarcerated defendant receives medication.

 

[sunshineray]

Since they decided "involuntary" was unnecessary, there was no need to force treatment.
I think he may have agreed to take some meds.
I think those meds may have caused side effects.

"Involuntary treatment," for example, may happen if a person is in the middle of a breakdown, out of his mind, unable to make a medical decision.
MOO and I am NAP

I think the involuntary meds may have come after the April 4th incident? I'd not heard about the feces and toliet drinking until just recently, like that itself was more recent behavior?

 

[Ravenmoon]

I found this statement from the former attorneys interesting:

Lebrato says he thinks that when Allen found out that his attorneys would be off his case, he may not have had the understanding or legal concepts to know he would automatically be appointed other public defenders. “He may have been thinking that he and his wife were going to have to hire private attorneys or he wasn’t going to have representation. I don’t know. But that’s strictly my opinion, my belief, based on things I’ve seen and heard,” Lebrato said.


Also of note in this article, the letter written to the court was written by Rozzi. RA just signed it.EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

 

[sunshineray]

I found this statement from the former attorneys interesting:

Lebrato says he thinks that when Allen found out that his attorneys would be off his case, he may not have had the understanding or legal concepts to know he would automatically be appointed other public defenders. “He may have been thinking that he and his wife were going to have to hire private attorneys or he wasn’t going to have representation. I don’t know. But that’s strictly my opinion, my belief, based on things I’ve seen and heard,” Lebrato said.


Also of note in this article, the letter written to the court was written by Rozzi. RA just signed it.EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

Sounds like AB&BR did little talking to their client when all the you know what was hitting the fan.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Sounds like AB&BR did little talking to their client when all the you know what was hitting the fan.

In my mind, it really shows how manipulative these attorneys are.
They want this case so badly that potentially they allowed RA to believe that he and his wife were on the hook to pay for their own counsel without Rozzi and Baldwin.

EBM


JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

I found this statement from the former attorneys interesting:

Lebrato says he thinks that when Allen found out that his attorneys would be off his case, he may not have had the understanding or legal concepts to know he would automatically be appointed other public defenders. “He may have been thinking that he and his wife were going to have to hire private attorneys or he wasn’t going to have representation. I don’t know. But that’s strictly my opinion, my belief, based on things I’ve seen and heard,” Lebrato said.


Also of note in this article, the letter written to the court was written by Rozzi. RA just signed it.EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

Well this is concerning. I have wondered how informed RA has been about all that has been going on.

Wow!

MOO

 

[photographer4]

I feel the pain in this post. It articulated my thoughts exactly. Money for another attorney, unbelievable. Why can't Richard Allen use his portion of the profit from the sale of his home? They were never ready because IMO they feel their client, Richard Allen is guilty. I don't care what they say.

Has it been reported in MSM how much profit the sale of his home was? And these are the same attorneys that a few months back stated they would go pro bono? I feel Richard Allen and attorneys have taken enough blood money. This needs to end. If tax payers are being asked to give more money then we should have the right to ask questions. IMO

I somehow doubt the proceeds from the sale of the matrimonial home would cover even a fraction of his legal defense. And if he is not guilty, or the state fails to prove their case, then what would he do? Sue them to get a full refund plus interest on his investment towards his freedom? I imagine that the proceeds from the sale went directly to KA via some legal fancy footwork so it cannot be touched by him / his team.

I sometimes think its outrageous though, the delays in the cases I have followed. I don't believe I have ever followed a case where the legal proceedings moved "speedily" along. Its often years before its ever brought to trial!

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I somehow doubt the proceeds from the sale of the matrimonial home would cover even a fraction of his legal defense. And if he is not guilty, or the state fails to prove their case, then what would he do? Sue them to get a full refund plus interest on his investment towards his freedom? I imagine that the proceeds from the sale went directly to KA via some legal fancy footwork so it cannot be touched by him / his team.

I sometimes think its outrageous though, the delays in the cases I have followed. I don't believe I have ever followed a case where the legal proceedings moved "speedily" along. Its often years before its ever brought to trial!

And see I find it interesting that he was unwilling to invest in his innocence. His home was paid in full and worth 200k+. I think it sold around 25Ok.
IMO if he were innocent it seems it could be proven quite simply. Alibi during the time of the murders and a home equity loan to retain a lawyer.
Not thousands of billable hours fabricated SODDI.
Then again when you are paying the bill you would stop that runaway train of billable hours.
When someone else is- what is there to lose? His wife is safely sitting on the nest egg of their marital assets ( well her assets since he POA’d all marital assets to her to keep so he could claim destitute).
Easy to gamble when someone else’s money.
JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think the involuntary meds may have come after the April 4th incident? I'd not heard about the feces and toliet drinking until just recently, like that itself was more recent behavior?

IMO this sounds like there were no involuntary meds:

"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary,"

 

[FrostedGlass]

IMO and JMO respectfully, it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse saying the DOC doctors gave RA drugs before he started his bizarre behaviors of eating documents, feces, drinking toilet water and smashing electronics provided to him. We don't know what other things he may have done causing harm to himself or others. A person involved in doing those kinds of things, IMO, needs medical intervention desperately. Whether RA was taking meds before he was arrested would have been addressed prior to his transfer to Westville. I've not seen any reports of that but HIPA is enforced nationwide so I've never expected to see reporting on that. The D did say something about his entrance evaluation into Westville not being through enough but there's no way for the public to confirm that. AJMO

Well, they claimed he was suicidal when he entered Westville an that's why he was placed on suicide watch. That was the starting point for my opinion. I guess the options from there range from:
1. he had no meds and was putting it on for show
To
2. they were doping him up until they got all the confessions they thought they needed.

Since none of us know the details, one opinion is as good as the other. IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

And see I find it interesting that he was unwilling to invest in his innocence. His home was paid in full and worth 200k+. I think it sold around 25Ok.
IMO if he were innocent it seems it could be proven quite simply. Alibi during the time of the murders and a home equity loan to retain a lawyer.
Not thousands of billable hours fabricated SODDI.
Then again when you are paying the bill you would stop that runaway train of billable hours.
When someone else is- what is there to lose? His wife is safely sitting on the nest egg of their marital assets ( well her assets since he POA’d all marital assets to her to keep so he could claim destitute).
Easy to gamble when someone else’s money.
JMO

I think most attys charge a retainer fee.
In your sleuthing, have you come across any estimates of how much that might be?

 

[FrostedGlass]

New:

05/16/2024

Order Issued Ex parte communication received from Lance R. Bloom ordered coped and sent to counsel of record and the Clerk of Carroll Circuit Court for filing in this case. Judicial Officer:Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/16/2024

05/16/2024

Order Issued The Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Corryn Brock, WPTA, for October 14 - November 15, 2024, and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/16/2024

 

[Silver_produce0]

Curious about what Allen claims he was doing the morning of the crime. Remember the alleged sighting of a strange person on the south end of the bridge? I think the story was a resident or visitor in that little neighborhood had seen someone they didn’t recognize earlier that day. I don’t think we know what time that was and IIRC it hasn’t been referenced in any of the documents shared so far. Bunk story? Investigators confirmed it wasn’t him? Or investigators don’t think it’s relevant to the case? Curious.

 

[Emma Peel]

New:

05/16/2024

Order Issued Ex parte communication received from Lance R. Bloom ordered coped and sent to counsel of record and the Clerk of Carroll Circuit Court for filing in this case. Judicial Officer:Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/16/2024

05/16/2024

Order Issued The Court has received a Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media from Corryn Brock, WPTA, for October 14 - November 15, 2024, and denies same. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/16/2024

More of/and of the Same ...

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I think most attys charge a retainer fee.
In your sleuthing, have you come across any estimates of how much that might be?

Yes most criminal defense attorneys charge a retainer fee from 3-10k depending on the complexity of the case.
Realtor fees on selling his home were probably around 15k. And didn’t get him any closer to freedom. IMO
I imagine he did get advice from an attorney which is why he signed the POA to his spouse giving her all the marital assets and claiming indigent.
I don’t know if an attorney advised him he didn’t have much of a case worth fighting with his own money or he came to that conclusion himself.
I just think it’s interesting that he and his family including his parents wouldn’t pony up to pay for his defense.
JMO