Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #212

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
Link to post with all threads 1 - 98 (Courtesy of margarita25)
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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
Hidden True Crime
Lawyer Lee
Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[vinayd]

So.. is it's junk science when the State's expert physically examines and makes a ruling on the evidence?... now scientific fact because the D has their expert up? This must be the magic bullet they've been screaming about.

 

[ClearAhead]

That's really odd for people to wait for hours and then leave as soon as it starts.
I wonder if some of YTers are paying people to take up seats so other YTers can't get a seat? The way some are acting, I wouldn't put it past them to pull dirty tricks. MOO

I wondered why it’s happening as well. You might be right, Yters taking up extra seats in hopes the ‘competition’ can’t get a seat, hadn’t thought of that. If so, hopefully security will catch on to it.

JMO

 

[tlcya]

Luttrell asks, “do you actively use CMS (firearm training methods)?” Wheeler responds, “yes. Only applicable to striated marks not in impressed marks.” He says he does not use in every case.

Luttrell asks “Were you trained to use another examiner’s photographs to testify about CMS in court?” Warren says yes.

Luttrell asks, “In 2021 did you indicate that you did not use CMS?” Warren says, “it might not have been applicable in that case, but I do not recall.”

Luttrell says that Warren’s lab is not accredited and asks, “what is the most important tool in your lab?” Warren says, “myself.”

Luttrell asks, “how valuable to you is your comparison microscope?” Warren says, “you need to use it if you’re making a comparison. Luttrell asks, “when asked by Rozzi if you received everything you needed, that didn’t include the cartridge or gun?” Warren says, “I received all documentation I needed.”

Pool reporter’s notes say at this point that Luttrell is “hammering into EW on why he didn’t request/physically examine cartridge and gun.”
Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

 

[gremlin444]

I wondered why it’s happening as well. You might be right, Yters taking up extra seats in hopes the ‘competition’ can’t get a seat, hadn’t thought of that. If so, hopefully security will catch on to it.

JMO

I also wonder if it's not something as simple as people going in and not knowing who is going to be on the stand (and having people they are hoping to see), they get in, and then find out the people who will be on the stand during that session are going to be "boring"...so they leave and prep to get in line for the afternoon session in hopes that it will be the person they want to see.

 

[MassGuy]

Luttrell asks, “do you actively use CMS (firearm training methods)?” Wheeler responds, “yes. Only applicable to striated marks not in impressed marks.” He says he does not use in every case.

Luttrell asks “Were you trained to use another examiner’s photographs to testify about CMS in court?” Warren says yes.

Luttrell asks, “In 2021 did you indicate that you did not use CMS?” Warren says, “it might not have been applicable in that case, but I do not recall.”

Luttrell says that Warren’s lab is not accredited and asks, “what is the most important tool in your lab?” Warren says, “myself.”

Luttrell asks, “how valuable to you is your comparison microscope?” Warren says, “you need to use it if you’re making a comparison. Luttrell asks, “when asked by Rozzi if you received everything you needed, that didn’t include the cartridge or gun?” Warren says, “I received all documentation I needed.”

Pool reporter’s notes say at this point that Luttrell is “hammering into EW on why he didn’t request/physically examine cartridge and gun.”
Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

I was expecting much more effective testimony from this witness. From the sounds of it, that was not the case.

 

[tlcya]

I was expecting much more effective testimony from this witness. From the sounds of it, that was not the case.

I got a kick out of this:

Luttrell says that Warren’s lab is not accredited and asks, “what is the most important tool in your lab?” Warren says, “myself.”

guy thinks pretty highly of himself. and yet his lab is not accredited.

 

[ClearAhead]

Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

Day 16 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins Tuesday at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

Rozzi asks, “Did I ask you to write a report?” Waren says no. Rozzi asks, “did you make yourself available to the prosecution they wanted to depose you? Warren says, “yes, but it was a few weeks ago and I was in Morocco.

 

[Megnut]

So.. is it's junk science when the State's expert physically examines and makes a ruling on the evidence?... now scientific fact because the D has their expert up? This must be the magic bullet they've been screaming about.

Exactly.

He compared photographs under a microscope.

 What's he hoping to compare? Pixelation at ridiculous amplification?

What science supports that for ballistics comparisons?

Not impressed.

JMO

 

[tlcya]

Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

Day 16 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins Tuesday at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

Rozzi asks, “Did I ask you to write a report?” Waren says no. Rozzi asks, “did you make yourself available to the prosecution they wanted to depose you? Warren says, “yes, but it was a few weeks ago and I was in Morocco.

lol. This bit was confusing because Rozzi absolutely did ask him to write a report and hired him as an expert. I think maybe Waren's response here is misreported or Rozzi actually asked Waren if Rozzi asked him WHAT to write in his report and that bit is inaccurate reporting.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Exactly.

He compared photographs under a microscope.

 What's he hoping to compare? Pixelation at ridiculous amplification?

What science supports that for ballistics comparisons?

Not impressed.

JMO

Not sure what I was expecting- but something different than that- maybe I’m missing something- moo

 

[m00c0w]

Luttrell asks, “do you actively use CMS (firearm training methods)?” Wheeler responds, “yes. Only applicable to striated marks not in impressed marks.” He says he does not use in every case.

Luttrell asks “Were you trained to use another examiner’s photographs to testify about CMS in court?” Warren says yes.

Luttrell asks, “In 2021 did you indicate that you did not use CMS?” Warren says, “it might not have been applicable in that case, but I do not recall.”

Luttrell says that Warren’s lab is not accredited and asks, “what is the most important tool in your lab?” Warren says, “myself.”

Luttrell asks, “how valuable to you is your comparison microscope?” Warren says, “you need to use it if you’re making a comparison. Luttrell asks, “when asked by Rozzi if you received everything you needed, that didn’t include the cartridge or gun?” Warren says, “I received all documentation I needed.”

Pool reporter’s notes say at this point that Luttrell is “hammering into EW on why he didn’t request/physically examine cartridge and gun.”
Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

And this is after the prosecution’s witness made such a big deal about how you can’t perform meaningful comparisons using photographs because it’s a three-dimensional surface.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I also wonder if it's not something as simple as people going in and not knowing who is going to be on the stand (and having people they are hoping to see), they get in, and then find out the people who will be on the stand during that session are going to be "boring"...so they leave and prep to get in line for the afternoon session in hopes that it will be the person they want to see.

Sure, it could be that too. Who’s going to be testifying does not appear to be communicated in any reliable order. I don’t think TMS said how many vacant seats they were noticing. Some are likely caused by Yters rushing off before a session is over to get a head start on their daily videos. JMO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I’ll be curious if we hear about any jury questions from today regarding BB and the ballistics expert - moo

 

[MassGuy]

Jury questions:
12:24 p.m., the jury began their questions of Warren:

1. How would CMS or objective testing be used? Pool notes do not show an answer.
2. Would removing, cleaning, disassembling change individual characteristics of a firearm? Warren says, “no, only if there was some sort of damage.”
3. Do you know if manufacturer keeps track of sub-class? Warren says, “no, they don’t.”
4. Pool notes do not transcribe a question, but Warren says, “my role here was to educate attorneys on what documentation was and see if it supported the concession.”
5. Would doing your own analysis have been more conclusive? Warren says, “hard to say.”
6. Is CMS criteria the gold standard? Pool notes do not indicate an answer.
7. Are you a certified firearm and tool mark examiner? No answer in pool notes.
8. Would individual markings be different depending on who cycles? Warren says, “documentation of Oberg does not support conclusion.”
9. Did you look at the sub-class marks of the cartridge? Pool notes do not show an answer.
10. What is the relevance of cartridges having similar sub-class characteristics? Warren says, “Depends on if it is from manufacturing or cycling.”
11. Are sequential serial numbers made in the same lot? Warren says, “generally accepted that close serial numbers have parts made at similar times, but may be in different lots.”
12. Are you aware that Oberg’s conclusion was unfired by another expert? Warren says yes.
13. Are you aware Allen’s gun’s ejector was recessed and had similar markings to markings made on the cartridge? Pool notes do not indicate an answer.
14. Is it normal practice to not issue a report when consulting? Warren says yes.
15. Wha are the chances that the cartridge at the scene matches the test bullets? Warren says, “higher likelihood of guns just in Indiana.”

The court is in recess and breaks for lunch at 12:42 p.m.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

Day 16 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins Tuesday at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Jury questions:
12:24 p.m., the jury began their questions of Warren:

1. How would CMS or objective testing be used? Pool notes do not show an answer.
2. Would removing, cleaning, disassembling change individual characteristics of a firearm? Warren says, “no, only if there was some sort of damage.”
3. Do you know if manufacturer keeps track of sub-class? Warren says, “no, they don’t.”
4. Pool notes do not transcribe a question, but Warren says, “my role here was to educate attorneys on what documentation was and see if it supported the concession.”
5. Would doing your own analysis have been more conclusive? Warren says, “hard to say.”
6. Is CMS criteria the gold standard? Pool notes do not indicate an answer.
7. Are you a certified firearm and tool mark examiner? No answer in pool notes.
8. Would individual markings be different depending on who cycles? Warren says, “documentation of Oberg does not support conclusion.”
9. Did you look at the sub-class marks of the cartridge? Pool notes do not show an answer.
10. What is the relevance of cartridges having similar sub-class characteristics? Warren says, “Depends on if it is from manufacturing or cycling.”
11. Are sequential serial numbers made in the same lot? Warren says, “generally accepted that close serial numbers have parts made at similar times, but may be in different lots.”
12. Are you aware that Oberg’s conclusion was unfired by another expert? Warren says yes.
13. Are you aware Allen’s gun’s ejector was recessed and had similar markings to markings made on the cartridge? Pool notes do not indicate an answer.
14. Is it normal practice to not issue a report when consulting? Warren says yes.
15. Wha are the chances that the cartridge at the scene matches the test bullets? Warren says, “higher likelihood of guns just in Indiana.”

The court is in recess and breaks for lunch at 12:42 p.m.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 16 live blog

Day 16 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins Tuesday at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

Thank you!

 

[gremlin444]

lol. This bit was confusing because Rozzi absolutely did ask him to write a report and hired him as an expert. I think maybe Waren's response here is misreported or Rozzi actually asked Waren if Rozzi asked him WHAT to write in his report and that bit is inaccurate reporting.

Or like in Murdaugh, where the defense did not have their experts write reports so they wouldn't have to turn them over as discovery to the prosecution before trial. I hope that's not what happened here, because I think Baldwin and Rozzi are better than Harpootlian.