VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #213

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
Hidden True Crime
Lawyer Lee
Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[Ivy rose]

The reason we know the Headphone theory is nonsense is because unlike the jury, we can see the stage directions.

Until 5 minutes ago the D and all it's surrogates were claiming the phone was switched off before the girls were bundled into a car, and switched back on at 4.30am. (See Auger's cross of the prosecution phone expert Cecil at the 3 day hearing). This was critical to the 2nd location / Odinism theory, because it explained how the phone didn't record any steps when it was brought back cross country to the murder scene.

Fast forward to this week, and all of that is memory holed in favour of "headphone theory". And of course without irony, all the people who claimed the phone was turned on at 4.30am now claim the phone was on the whole time with headphones! Completely forgetting what they claimed all summer!

It's obvious this is another wild speculation not supported by the totality of the evidence. Probably they had to do this because they realised the jury would never believe the phone was turned off.

Sadly juries never see these inconsistent versions. But we've seen the D and surrogates switch seamlessly from one conspiracy to the other as if the D never said the first one.

It troubles me how content the D have been to mislead the public pre-trial. They always knew the phone wasn't turned off.

MOO

ETA On a call but will look out that cross shortly

The big problem for trial is the prosecution didn’t provide an explanation outside google search results.

 

[Warwick7]

The big problem for trial is the prosecution didn’t provide an explanation outside google search results.

What?

 

[getthefax]

There is no proof that a 'human hand' plugged in any headphones.

…

The extraction downloads raw data from the phone. That data makes certain assumptions----like if something is in that audio output space then it triggers a notification of headphones being used. That raw data does not know if a human hand plugged in headphones or if a field mouse stuffed a twig into the hole. Or if condensation/dirt dripped inside?

There is no proof that a human hand plugged anything into that phone. And there are a few things which prove it didn't happen. The phone didn't move after the murders, which happened right there. The phone was never unlocked. Someone tried to unlock the phone around 2:17 pm ,IIRC, but were unsuccessful. No one ever unlocked it again. If someone was trying to plug in headphones for some reason they'd need to unlock the phone to use it.

…

We had a few people here who have experienced their cell phones giving notifications of their headphones being in, when they were not. So it is possible for that notification to be a glitch.

SBM
Yes! Exactly.

We also know Libby reset her phone a few days prior to her death. Her grandmother reported she had told her that the phone had been “glitching.” Maybe the headphone mode was part of the glitch, so she reset it?

MOO

 

[Simply Caustic]

She’s not FBI; not anymore, right? She’s a private investigator? I am playing catch up, missed some things, so I want to make sure.

 

[INfisherman]

What? Who said that?

Sigh.

The defense with their Odinism theory which isn’t allowed (per JG ruling) to be mentioned in front of the jury at this trial (even though the defense tries every chance they get, even after resting their case).

Defense never proved a nexus existed via evidence between a group of people who posted odd things on social media that someone in GA thought were Easter eggs pointing to the murders. Ex-girlfriends & ex-wives of these people claimed they were involved in the Delphi murders due to one of the victims mothers dating someone outside of her race. They kidnapped the girls, left the scene & brought them back. The perps did something with one of the girls blood because it didn’t show up in photos (very well). All the sticks were runes, as was some blood on a tree. Guards at Westville were also Odinists & video recording meetings with RA & his attorneys & threatening to kill RAs wife if he didn’t confess. LE knew all of it & chose to ignore it in favor of pinning the crime on their client. That’s about the gist of it, paraphrased.

It’s currently a dead horse that continues to be beaten to death.

MOO

 

[INfisherman]

She’s not FBI; not anymore, right? She’s a private investigator? I am playing catch up, missed some things, so I want to make sure.

Yes. PI from Nebraska who hasn’t had cell phone extraction training since 2009. All she did was review the data the state extracted & give her opinion, in a nutshell, as do most expert witnesses.

JMO

 

[Tricia]

The new Websleuths Delphi poll is up. CLICK HERE TO VOTE
Here are the results from yesterday
At the end of court on 11/6
Guilty and acted alone 82.8%
Guilty but had help 1.1%
Not Guilty 9.2%
I don't know 6.9%

 

[snooptroop88]

The big problem for trial is the prosecution didn’t provide an explanation outside google search results.

Possibly, but I'd watch to see if this doesn't boomerang in the P's favor since most or all of those jurors themselves probably personally already know what happens when there's water damage to an electronic device. The P doesn't really have to bang them over the head with this. Just some nudges here and there with some emphasis in the closing statement is probably enough and may be far more effective than trying to turn it into rocket science (jmho).

 

[Boxer]

Maybe that is how it was 'cleared'. If an officer tried to find someone by that name, and it didn't check out, maybe it was cleared rather than checked for mistakes. With thousands of tips, it's possible.

Something like that happened, but the mysterious "Mr. Whiteman" would still need to be a pin on the map as the girls saw a man at the time.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Dr. Martin from IDOC met with RA 8 times over the course of his stay in Westville (much more than his attorneys btw). He said his first visits with RA starting in November (twice) were normal for a detainee getting acclimated and noticed no signs of psychosis. Met with him Jan seemed to be doing okay. February the same.

In early April he went to meet with RA and he was in his cell laying in feces. He conferred with other medical doctors and decided to give Allen a low dose of Haldol, the guards carried him out of the cell to the shower to clean him up and clean his cell. He saw RA again in late April, Allen seemed to be improving and In May Allen showed no signs of psychosis.

Again, coincidental timing of RA's psychosis in conjunction with the State's Discovery dump, but seemed to improve within 6 weeks.

Starting at the 37 min mark:

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Seventeen: The Rebuttal

JMO

 

[Niner]

Thursday, November 7th:
*Trial continues (Day 18)-Closing Arguments! (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Initial bond @ $20M on 10/27/22. On 2/16/23 held with no bond.
Amended charges (on 1/18/24/granted on 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Plead not guilty. Carroll County
*Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer [8/1/24] of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial is over.
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.Trial began on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon. Prosecutors rested their case on 10/31/24. Defense began their case on 10/31/24 & rested on 11/7/24 [last witnesses on 11/6/24].
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. 3 alternates (3 women) One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency on 10/25/24. Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-16 (10/18-11/5/24) reference post #273 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-212.728189/page-14
11/6/24 Wednesday, Trial Day 17: *Defense attorney Bradley Rozzi rested their case Wednesday morning.
*State prosecutor Nick McLeland requested a sidebar with Special Judge Fran Gull. Gull said several witnesses weren’t available yet so she dismissed the jury for a quick break. She then said she wanted to set jury instructions with the attorneys, including relating to the defendant not testifying & prior inconsistent statements. It was noted that Allen will not testify. Judge Gull said she planned to give the jurors instructions before closing statements & will limit the argument lengths to 2 to 2.5 hours. “Two hours is a long time for folks to be sitting in these really uncomfortable chairs,” Judge Gull said. The judge also told the attorneys if they go over the time, she “will kindly ask them to stop.”
*The prosecution and defense ultimately had no objections to jury instructions. Rozzi asked Gull for additional time to submit a proposal on how to judge the credibility of Allen’s incriminating statements; Gull said the defense had until the “end of business” to submit one.
*State’s rebuttal witnesses: Breann Wilbur who was on the bridge. Brian Harshman [the Westville correctional officer who listened to Allen’s phone calls from jail]. Dr. John Martin [was Allen’s psychiatrist in Westville. a licensed psychiatrist with 40+ years of experience in corrections & worked at Westville as third-party contractor in Feb. 2022 seeing Allen in November].
*The jury exits the court room at 2:16pm. Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin revisits jury instructions wanting to add a statement of confessions. The state objects. The defense withdraws the request. Baldwin again brings up an offer of proof involving a man named Elvis Fields, who is connected to the defense’s Odinism defense. The state says this does not matter because the defense has rested. Baldwin says he wants Fields addressed because he did not respond to a subpoena. Judge Gull says she already ruled he would not testify.
For more info see post #389 (Day 17 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-212.728189/page-20
Trial continues on Thursday, 11/7/24 @ 9am with jury instructions & closing arguments.

 

[jepop]

Possibly, but I'd watch to see if this doesn't boomerang in the P's favor since most or all of those jurors themselves probably personally already know what happens when there's water damage to an electronic device. The P doesn't really have to bang them over the head with this. Just some nudges here and there with some emphasis in the closing statement is probably enough and may be far more effective than trying to turn it into rocket science (jmho).

True, the jury can also assess the credibility of Eldridge and weigh her opinion in the light of the crime scene evidence. I still wish that the state had been ready with another expert because imo this could easily have been debunked with another expert opinion without getting into too much techno.Ie. all they needed to have opined , yes, water,/dirt can result in a phone log re audio jack plugged etc.

It's a risk and unnecessary anxiety to not be prepped for that jmo. Plus am disappointed the state did not have any forensics person on hand to actually confirm the physical condition of the phone. It's sloppy prep imo.

 

[MiniMoo]

The big problem for trial is the prosecution didn’t provide an explanation outside google search results.

Question: Is this a BAM moment or not?

Have to agree though - big problem and unacceptable.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[MiniMoo]

No, I don't think it can. It can not differentiate between a human hand plugging in a headphone and any other way something could be in the headphone jack. KnowledgeC Database is just that---a database of the I-phones raw data.



The KnowledgeC database, or KnowledgeC.db, is an SQLite database file that stores records of activities on Apple devices. It's the database behind the coreduet daemon in iOS, which synchronizes states between Apple products. The KnowledgeC database can provide insight into a phone owner's usage, including: Application activity, When the device was locked or unlocked, When the device was plugged into a charger or PC, Login events, and Screen status.


The I-phone cannot see/feel/know that a human hand did or did not plug in headphones. It only knows what its sensors detect. Its sensors alert the notifications when they detect 'headphones' being plugged in. It sends the message for the audio output to go 'headphone mode.'

How do we KNOW that the I-phone can't tell the difference between actual headphones plugged in and water/debris in the jack? We know that because hundreds of people have complained that the I-phone has a glitch that makes it go into headphone mode EVEN IF no one plus in any headphones.

So that KnowledgeC Database is not going to be able to differentiate unless they can also see that phone was unlocked and a podcast was being streamed between 5 and 10 pm. Then I would agree that a human hand was responsible for the headphones being plugged in.

But the phone was not unlocked and nothing was being streamed or played. And we know the phone was wet and dirty.




YES, it does explain the data. That is exactly what it explains. When the sensors in the audio jack detect 'something' in the headphone jack, a notification is sent to go into Headphone Mode, and have the sound rerouted to headphone outlet.

Sometimes, when the phone gets wet or dirty, the sensors mistakenly think there are headphones plugged in. And the Knowledge C Database would still compute that as 'headphone mode.' The Knowledge C database does not know the difference.

Someone interpreting that data can tell the difference. The raw data tells a story.If there is an alert that something is plugged into the headphone jack, the next clues would be that the phone would be unlocked, maybe charged, and a selection would be chosen to listen to. Or a call would be made. NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.

KnowledgeCdatabase is not doing all of the analysis---it takes the digital expert to make that determination.


The headphones make no sense because there weren't any, imo. The phone data shows it was never unlocked during that time. Why have headphones plugged in for 5 hours and never use the phone to make a call or listen to music?

It makes no sense. And Abby's pants were wet from the creek and the phone was probably in the pants. IMO

The witness stated more or less that a whole extraction is something she would have preferred because it would probably have provided more information. After the first extraction - a lot apparently was lost.

So, there is missing information which cannot be recovered due to LE which may have shown more activity or more logs. Who knows?!

JMO MOO JMT

 

[INfisherman]

Question: Is this a BAM moment or not?

Have to agree though - big problem and unacceptable.

JMO MOO JMT

To me, no. Hard to say what every juror may feel about it though.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Sigh.

The defense with their Odinism theory which isn’t allowed (per JG ruling) to be mentioned in front of the jury at this trial (even though the defense tries every chance they get, even after resting their case).

Defense never proved a nexus existed via evidence between a group of people who posted odd things on social media that someone in GA thought were Easter eggs pointing to the murders. Ex-girlfriends & ex-wives of these people claimed they were involved in the Delphi murders due to one of the victims mothers dating someone outside of her race. They kidnapped the girls, left the scene & brought them back. The perps did something with one of the girls blood because it didn’t show up in photos (very well). All the sticks were runes, as was some blood on a tree. Guards at Westville were also Odinists & video recording meetings with RA & his attorneys & threatening to kill RAs wife if he didn’t confess. LE knew all of it & chose to ignore it in favor of pinning the crime on their client. That’s about the gist of it, paraphrased.

It’s currently a dead horse that continues to be beaten to death.

MOO

And the Delphi witnesses for the State are just agenda-drivin State agents, none are just citizens telling the truth of what they witnessed. RA is lying too, in his mountain of confessions and incriminating statements.

It's all a big scheme against RA and by RA, who by the way has never told any other account of what he did that day between 1:30 to 3:30pm other than the accounts he gave of killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

He's just the most unluckiest of fellows. Just a regular Joe Btfsplk with a perpetual dark cloud of bad luck hanging over his head.

I don't believe that, I believe him.

AJMO

 

[INfisherman]

The witness stated more or less that a whole extraction is something she would have preferred because it would probably have provided more information. After the first extraction - a lot apparently was lost.

So, there is missing information which cannot be recovered due to LE which may have shown more activity or more logs. Who knows?!

JMO MOO JMT

BBM

No, simply due to extraction itself, regardless of who is doing it, there is data loss. Data loss also occurs from updates & deletion from expiration (too old).

Auger then asked Bunner if it was true that every time data is extracted from a phone, some data is lost.

"We know that now but didn't know that in 2017," Bunner said, noting there is a possibility some data was lost, such as being overridden or had fallen off over time.

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

JMO