VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #213

[mrjitty]

Thank You----we can dismiss that ridiculous 'human hand on the headphone' nonsense now. I bet the jury will too.

It’s remarkable how her testimony is illogical on its face. If the phone was always on as she conceded, how was it brought to the crime scene after 10pm without recording any steps or location change.

she knows this isn’t possible so her theory must be the headphones were plugged in for hours at the crime scene.

which makes no sense.

Do none of these people have any ethics or self respect at all?

MOO

 

[katydid23]

It wasn’t exactly the Amazon-not sure how crossing a few feet of creek suddenly calmed his nerves

He was initially spooked by the white van coming towards them, way down the road. But once they crossed the creek and scrambled up to a little pocket behind some trees, he felt less exposed. IMO

 

[INfisherman]

Do none of these people have any ethics or self respect at all?

MOO

RSBM

Many do not sadly, and it’s not just those involved with the case - it’s all around us. No respect for authority or even other people. Everyone wants to police the police. The pot stirrers do nothing to help that either. It makes it worse, all around us, not to mention what it does to the families & those at which fingers were pointed.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

It’s remarkable how her testimony is illogical on its face. If the phone was always on as she conceded, how was it brought to the crime scene after 10pm without recording any steps or location change.

she knows this isn’t possible so her theory must be the headphones were plugged in for hours at the crime scene.

Right. from 5 to 10 pm that area would be surrounded by first responders, searching the area with flashlights. And a perp is going to sit and tamper with a phone under a dead body?

Besides that, the phone was never unlocked and never used to make a call or play music or stream So why the headphones?

That headphone 'bombshell' was so ridiculous, yet the D had some people convinced it was the real deal.

which makes no sense.

Do none of these people have any ethics or self respect at all?

MOO

By any means necessary I guess?

 

[mrjitty]

RSBM

Many do not sadly, and it’s not just those involved with the case - it’s all around us. No respect for authority or even other people. Everyone wants to police the police. The pot stirrers do nothing to help that either. It makes it worse, all around us, not to mention what it does to the families & those at which fingers were pointed.

JMO

I understand attorneys defending their client in court to the best of their abilities but I don't understand a couple of things

1. Misleading the Court with things you know are wildly misleading

2. Spreading conspiracies to the general public which you 100% know are false

There is just no way to reconcile the D's extensive claims that the Odinists turned on the phone at 4.30am with their new claims that the phone was always on with headphones plugged in. They were lying about the phone being turned immediately off and then back on at 4.30a,, because they always knew about grandma's text.

The obvious inference is they are lying again now - because you cannot reconcile these versions. Yet here we are with 'headphone theory' spreading like wildfire, by the very same surrogates who spread the first theory literally until a few days ago. All without a hint of irony or an acknowledge of the inconsistency. And some of these people are actually barred????

MOO & Sigh.

 

[katydid23]

In my opinion, as a member of LE, and to be fair, the reason they weren't taken in the first place was due to inexperience, neglect and ignorance. Hair and fibers are easily caught in bark or any rough surface. Anything with blood on it, skin, cloth, weapons, branches bark, etc, can potentially yield DNA.

https://support.google.com/websearch?p=ai_overviews&hl=en

There was one murder in Delphi, Indiana in the past 10 years, the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.
So I don't think their forensics team is going to be experienced or top notch. It was a bad mistake and I wish they had not cut loose from the FBI.

But water under the bridge and here we are. I hope I am right about the jury and their ability to connect the dots

 

[katydid23]

I am thread behind doing my best to catch up(Time difference)
There a question I have going through my thoughts but going through news reports and threads I cannot find the answer.
How deep is the creek Libby and Abby was forced across? The water height on Libby and Abby as they crossed the creek. Phones signal stopped, no further movement detected, they could been move around the much longer than thought. IMO
Which been no comfort to them more frightening and horrify than words can describe.

I have seen anywhere from knee high to waist high. I think the pants that Abby was wearing were wet to the knees. IIRC
corect me if I am mistaken, anyone...

 

[Tricia]

This is our last Delphi Websleuths poll. We'll leave this up until a verdict comes in.
CLICK HERE to take the poll.

 

[Niner]

Friday, November 8th:
*Trial continues (Day 19)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 2) (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Initial bond @ $20M on 10/27/22. On 2/16/23 held with no bond.
Amended charges (on 1/18/24/granted on 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Plead not guilty. Carroll County
*Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer [8/1/24] of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial is over.
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24 & ended with closing arguments on 11/7/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon. Prosecutors rested their case on 10/31/24. Defense began their case on 10/31/24 & rested on 11/7/24 [last witnesses on 11/6/24]. Closing arguments on 11/7/24.
Jury started deliberations on 11/7/24 @ 1:40pm to 4pm. Total hours: Day 1- 2 hours & 20 minutes.
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. 3 alternates (3 women) One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency on 10/25/24. Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-17 (10/18-11/6/24) reference post #16 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...hi-murders-richard-allen-arrested-213.728313/
11/7/24 Thursday, Trial Day 18: Judge Gull read the jury instructions. Closing statements by Proseutor Nicholas McLeland [took 58 minutes] & defense attorney Bradley Rozzi [took 1 hour & 17 minutes]. State rebuttal closing by Nicholas McLeland. The case has now gone [1:40pm] to the jury & the jury is currently in the process of choosing a Foreman.
*Judge Gull says the jury will deliberate from 9am to 4pm daily, unless at 4pm they choose to stay & deliberate longer. She says the jury will not deliberate on Sundays.
For more info see post #73 (Day 18 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ders-richard-allen-arrested-213.728313/page-4
Trial continues on Friday, 11/8/24 @ 9am with jury deliberations & our Verdict Watch!

 

[snooptroop88]

I have seen anywhere from knee high to waist high. I think the pants that Abby was wearing were wet to the knees. IIRC
corect me if I am mistaken, anyone...

Source:

Were Abby’s clothes wet and why?​

A lot of testimony from all the witnesses and questions from the defense team on Monday called into question how deep the creek is and if the clothes Abby was found in were wet.

The investigators testified that Abby’s clothes were wet or damp and they did not think it could have been from condensation. Defense attorneys, however, brought up that there are not clear lines on the clothes showing a “water line” of where they may have been wet.

Defense attorneys also pointed out that no measurements of creek depth were taken.

It’s thought that the girls exited the Monon High Bridge on the south side of the creek, but their bodies were found on the north side. No one testified a clear way the girls ended up on the other side of the creek.

Olehy testified that Abby’s jeans were bunched up at the waistband and were wet to the touch. “I can see the jeans are darker on the leg bottom and the waistband was still wet,” he said.

He also said that during the autopsy on February 15, the clothes were still wet and moist and were taken to the Putnamville State Police post in Greencastle because they have a facility that’s designed to dry out evidence. Clothes found in the creek were taken to that same facility to be dried out.

https://www.wane.com/news/crime/delphi-trial-day-3-testimony-included-crime-scene-photos/

 

[BexLuth0r]

The defence opening and closing didn't really match. Is this common? Or are they meant to stay along the same argument?

 

[Poedelini]

I understand attorneys defending their client in court to the best of their abilities but I don't understand a couple of things

1. Misleading the Court with things you know are wildly misleading

2. Spreading conspiracies to the general public which you 100% know are false

There is just no way to reconcile the D's extensive claims that the Odinists turned on the phone at 4.30am with their new claims that the phone was always on with headphones plugged in. They were lying about the phone being turned immediately off and then back on at 4.30a,, because they always knew about grandma's text.

The obvious inference is they are lying again now - because you cannot reconcile these versions. Yet here we are with 'headphone theory' spreading like wildfire, by the very same surrogates who spread the first theory literally until a few days ago. All without a hint of irony or an acknowledge of the inconsistency. And some of these people are actually barred????

MOO & Sigh.

Bolded for reference.
Their tactic worked. The general public is divided. Imo they played dirty.

 

[cherrybier]

Bolded for reference.
Their tactic worked. The general public is divided. Imo they played dirty.

Or we don't believe the state have any credible evidence that BG is RA or BG even killed the girls.

Don't blame the defense for the state's weak case.

Moo.

 

[Poedelini]

Or we don't believe the state have any credible evidence that BG is RA or BG even killed the girls.

Don't blame the defense for the state's weak case.

Moo.

I respect your opinion. I stand by mine.

 

[Jw192]

There could be other reasons for the way he was placing them. For example, maybe he was a setting them the way one builds a fire. He might have thought that burning the evidence would help him get away with it. He knew someone was going to be looking for them really soon so maybe he was trying to create some chaos and destroy evidence :?

But then he maybe heard her Dad calling out their names so he dropped that idea and took off?

I was confused by the sketches of the sticks myself and was under the assumption that they were all like singular sticks placed to make the pattern shown in the sketches if that makes sense? Now I'm not confused as much, some sticks/twigs/branches are really bizarre shaped, you only have to go walk in the woods and pick up a few to see. The sticks/branches that RA put on the girls weren't like straight sticks placed to form any sort of pattern. They had extra branches coming off them if you get me? Like 3 sticks can look like 6 sticks when they're all branchy and twisty.
I don't believe at all now that the sticks were anything other than a quick and panicked attempt at a cover up and the defense trying to make it out to be anything but that is a reach beyond all reaches.

IMO

 

[IminSyd]

So looking just at the evidence I have heard about at trial, I feel strongly that RA is factually guilty of murdering Libby and Abby. However, I’m not sure if the evidence proves this BARD. I truly feel for the jury because I suspect some may feel the same way.

For me the confession to psychologist Wala is that final piece of evidence I was looking for, it just really brought the crime together, including motive. From bundling up and then lying in wait, to drawing the gun on the bridge and forcing girls down the hill. Starting a SA against them, being interrupted by a van and panicking and forcing them across the creek explains the disorganised crime scene, unusual states of being dressed and undressed. I did always think RA was experiencing psychosis while incarcerated but I don’t think that negates this very detailed confession, which completely aligns with what the state believe happened.

However, the absence of any forensic type evidence apart from the bullet is a big problem I think. In my mind, a pharmacy tech would be someone who could pull this off, but still a big hurdle for the jury to have to get over. Also the descriptions of BG by witnesses didn’t seem to really match RA. Again, I can get over this myself, but acknowledge it could be another pretty significant hurdle for someone only seeing the evidence presented in court.

So we wait, thoughts with Libby and Abby’s families.

 

[Salah11]

How was closing arguments I have been busy?

Did the prosecution put on a good show and nail down the key facts?

 

[IminSyd]

How was closing arguments I have been busy?

Did the prosecution put on a good show and nail down the key facts?

The reporting I have heard (WTHR) say both sides put forward strong closing arguments. Legal commentator on WTHR has commented that she thinks BARD was not reached.

 

[INfisherman]

How was closing arguments I have been busy?

Did the prosecution put on a good show and nail down the key facts?

Pretty detailed summary from the local Delphi paper without narrative or opinion:

Victims and heroes - Carroll County Comet

“There are two victims in this case, Abby and Libby. They are more than victims; they are also heroes. Libby for recording the video, and Abby for concealing the phone. And both for camouflaging the bullet Richard Allen left behind.” Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland left jurors with that...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

ETA JMO

 

[mrjitty]

The defence opening and closing didn't really match. Is this common? Or are they meant to stay along the same argument?

my experience following trials is the Defence often tries to sell a story in opening which they don’t deliver on, then hope the jury don’t notice by the time of closing.