Accountability of Caylee

[JWG]

Could Casey have dropped off Caylee at Gentiva around 5-6 pm?

ETA: Just checked out the ping map for 6/13 and this does seem possible.

Don't give up on that one so quickly. There are three pings of interest that could bound a trip to Gentiva:

5:13:51 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva
5:23:56 PM - Could be Tony's or Gentiva
5:48:54 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva

It is only a 5 minute drive from Tony's to Gentiva, so I could see KC stopping by sometime between 5:20 and 5:30 to drop Caylee off. I will note, however, that there are no calls between KC and Cindy's cell that day, so it would have to be an unannounced drop-off.

6:09:13 PM - Call to KC from Anthony home

Google says that it is a 19 minute drive from Gentiva to the Anthony home. So even accounting for Friday rush hour traffic, Cindy could have left Gentiva with Caylee at 5:40 or 5:45 and made that call.

In fact, I can see a scenario where KC pops in at Gentiva unannounced and hands off Caylee, saying she has an emergency event to do that night, and Cindy just takes her. Upon arriving back at the ranch, Cindy walks in, puts her stuff down, gets Caylee settled, and then calls KC for a clearer picture of the evening. That call lasts one minute.

An hour later the homestead tries calling KC again, and this time it rolls to VM. KC returns the message about 10 minutes later, and now it is a three minute call...probably to settle plans for KC out that night, and Caylee home.

 

[Chezhire]

SNIPPED: "... there are no calls between KC and Cindy's cell that day, so it would have to be an unannounced drop-off....In fact, I can see a scenario where KC pops in at Gentiva unannounced and hands off Caylee, saying she has an emergency event to do that night, and Cindy just takes her. Upon arriving back at the ranch, Cindy walks in, puts her stuff down, gets Caylee settled, and then calls KC for a clearer picture of the evening. That call lasts one minute.

An hour later the homestead tries calling KC again, and this time it rolls to VM. KC returns the message about 10 minutes later, and now it is a three minute call...probably to settle plans for KC out that night, and Caylee home.

I like the discussion above re: 6/13 and dropping off Caylee. It also could have been prearranged.

 

[AZlawyer]

I like the discussion above re: 6/13 and dropping off Caylee. It also could have been prearranged.

Didn't KC spend the night at home on June 12-13? If so, she could have arranged the Gentiva drop-off with Cindy that morning before Cindy left for work. After all, it isn't like Fusian Friday snuck up on KC by surprise...she knew ahead of time that she would need someone to Caylee-sit that night.

 

[AZlawyer]

And didn't Cindy originally tell the 911 operator that she hadn't seen Caylee since June 7? Then later that night everyone said June 9? If Cindy was off by a week, perhaps she was remembering that she had Caylee Friday night til Sat AM (June 6-7 in her mind, June 13-14 in real life), then later remembered Caylee was also on their house Sunday night til Monday AM after the trip to see the great-grandparents (June 8-9 in her mind, June 15-16 in real life).

 

[ibyoungr]

and didn't cindy originally tell the 911 operator that she hadn't seen caylee since june 7? Then later that night everyone said june 9? If cindy was off by a week, perhaps she was remembering that she had caylee friday night til sat am (june 6-7 in her mind, june 13-14 in real life), then later remembered caylee was also on their house sunday night til monday am after the trip to see the great-grandparents (june 8-9 in her mind, june 15-16 in real life).

ita!!

 

[ibyoungr]

Don't give up on that one so quickly. There are three pings of interest that could bound a trip to Gentiva:

5:13:51 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva
5:23:56 PM - Could be Tony's or Gentiva
5:48:54 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva

It is only a 5 minute drive from Tony's to Gentiva, so I could see KC stopping by sometime between 5:20 and 5:30 to drop Caylee off. I will note, however, that there are no calls between KC and Cindy's cell that day, so it would have to be an unannounced drop-off.

6:09:13 PM - Call to KC from Anthony home

Google says that it is a 19 minute drive from Gentiva to the Anthony home. So even accounting for Friday rush hour traffic, Cindy could have left Gentiva with Caylee at 5:40 or 5:45 and made that call.

In fact, I can see a scenario where KC pops in at Gentiva unannounced and hands off Caylee, saying she has an emergency event to do that night, and Cindy just takes her. Upon arriving back at the ranch, Cindy walks in, puts her stuff down, gets Caylee settled, and then calls KC for a clearer picture of the evening. That call lasts one minute.

An hour later the homestead tries calling KC again, and this time it rolls to VM. KC returns the message about 10 minutes later, and now it is a three minute call...probably to settle plans for KC out that night, and Caylee home.

I think this is why it was fresh in Cindy's co-workers mind that Casey would drop Caylee off there.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Don't give up on that one so quickly. There are three pings of interest that could bound a trip to Gentiva:

5:13:51 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva
5:23:56 PM - Could be Tony's or Gentiva
5:48:54 PM - definitely Tony's, not Gentiva

It is only a 5 minute drive from Tony's to Gentiva, so I could see KC stopping by sometime between 5:20 and 5:30 to drop Caylee off. I will note, however, that there are no calls between KC and Cindy's cell that day, so it would have to be an unannounced drop-off.

6:09:13 PM - Call to KC from Anthony home

Google says that it is a 19 minute drive from Gentiva to the Anthony home. So even accounting for Friday rush hour traffic, Cindy could have left Gentiva with Caylee at 5:40 or 5:45 and made that call.

In fact, I can see a scenario where KC pops in at Gentiva unannounced and hands off Caylee, saying she has an emergency event to do that night, and Cindy just takes her. Upon arriving back at the ranch, Cindy walks in, puts her stuff down, gets Caylee settled, and then calls KC for a clearer picture of the evening. That call lasts one minute.

An hour later the homestead tries calling KC again, and this time it rolls to VM. KC returns the message about 10 minutes later, and now it is a three minute call...probably to settle plans for KC out that night, and Caylee home.

ITTA. In fact, since the 5:23PM ping was the result of a 2min call to Jesse I'd say it further supports Casey was not in the presence of Tony...more likely a trip to Gentiva.


I wish one of the Gentiva employee had noted this specific date in their statements. It was the last workday before Caylee went missing 6/16...albeit well before 7/16...so its undertstandable they didn't recall specifics...or if Casey met Cindy in the parking lot, perhaps they never knew.

 

[Friday]

Allrighty guys....bear with me, cause I've been up all night looking at this stuff and thinking it through before I post. I have searched some and done a bit of scanning, but this may be posted elsewhere by someone who's a WAY more experienced WSer than I am. So, if I'm re-posting anyone else's theory, I'm SO SORRY and I would never take credit for any of this research because EVERYTHING that I looked over was in the calendar that you guys have put SO MUCH hard work into building. The thing that sparked my interest was the "draft email" that was brought up in another thread. I posted about wishing I could start on this case with a "fresh mind" and re-look at all the info.....so I decided that I would try it (do the best I could, anyway). So, I did a LOT of reading in the "draft" thread and used the linkes that the posters in there provided (you guys are SOO awesome) and started checking out the calendar for the month of June.
The two pieces of information that I focused on were the fact that Caylee was with CA on the 15th for Father's Day and that GA said he saw Caylee and CA leave the house shortly before 1pm on The 16th. I looked through everything that you guys put on the calendar from the doc dumps, LE interviews, phone conversations, ping maps and typical daily schedules for CA, GA, KC, and Caylee the most. I looked at some AH, JG, RM, and TL as well. This is what I came up with (have adult onset ADD so bear with me, please)

KC spent the evening of the 13th with TL at Fusian until around 3AM on the 14th after lying to all her other friends about George's "mini-stroke heart-attack" thingy. She pinged near Fusian until about 1:40AM and then pinged near AL's apartment around 2:50AM. She pinged near the A home around 3:15AM on the 14th (Saturday). She slept at the A's home for a while and then pinged next in route to TL's where she stayed from around 12:15-4pm Saturday afternoon before going back to the A's home and staying overnight (until Sunday the 15th, Father's Day) which is indicated by the 12:30AM-9:15 am pings at/near the A's home on the morning of the 15th.
KC left Caylee with CA, who took her to visit her GGfather at the nursing home and to eat chilli at her GGmother's house before returning home. CA stayed with TL for the entire day on the 15th (around 9:15AM until around 7:30PM) until she returned to the A's home around 7:30PM and stayed there through midnight (she pinged around 12:30AM at the A's on the 16th) and stayed at or near the A's residence all the way through 4:30PM the afternoon of the 16th.
GA's work schedule was 2-10PM on the afternoon/evening of the 16th, and he says that he saw KC and Caylee leave the house around 1PM. This could be true since GA wasn't scheduled to be at work until 2 (and CA wouldn't have been there to witness this because she worked from 8AM-5PM). However, KC still pinged around the A's home until 4:30 PM, indicating that she didn't go to "work" or anywhere else during that time period after she left the A's house. On the computer use information, the HP desktop at the A's house was being used at 84% from 2-3PM on the 16th. It couldn't have been GA or CA because they were both at work, meaning that KC is the only person that could have been using the computer between 2-3PM...so she had to have doubled back to the A's home after GA left for work. Then JG speaks to KC for 12 minutes starting at 2:52PM and hears Caylee in the background (keep in mind that he doesn't second guess whether or not he heard her on this phone call....it was the phone call on the 24th that he wasn't sure of). That means that Caylee was still alive at around 3:05PM (end of the phone call between KC and JG) on Monday the 16th. After the JG phone call, there is a 30 minute gap in phone activity, followed by a 22 second phone call from KC to AL at 3:35PM. Then there is a 35 minute gap in phone activity until KC makes a 34 second phone call to GA around 4:10PM. Then there are four phone calls to CA (two at 4:11 and two at 4:13) followed by a 98 second call to GA at 4:14. Then she texts AL at 4:18 and appears (according to pings) to be traveling away from the A's home. She arrives at Al's apartment, calls JG two more times at 4:21and makes 6 phone calls to either CA or the A's home from 4:25-6:32 that evening. She makes a few calls to friends throughout the rest of the evening and stays the night at AL's apartment. This is when she "moves in" with TL (stops staying at the A's at night) and she doesn't have Caylee with her at all. The car gets backed into the A's garage for the first time the next day, the 17th and the invisinanny stories start on the 20th to TL about being able to stay all weekend and on the 27th to JG about who's keeping her while she's out partying.
I know I probably included a lot of info that wasn't really necessary, but I wanted to make sure that my thoughts were "flowing" correctly. I think I've narrowed down little Caylee's time of death to one of the two breaks in the cell phone activity on the 16th while she was at the A's house! Little Caylee was either murdered between 3:04-3:35 before KC called AL or between 3:35-4:10 when she called GA at work because NOBODY saw her or heard her little voice again after the phone call with JG that ended at 3:04PM on June 16th. That means that KC murdered her baby between 3:04 and 4:10 at her parent's house (just an hour or so before CA would have been home from work).

Please feel free to edit this and tear it apart however you need to. Like I said, I was up all night doing this psycho-crazy "figure it out" thing....so I'm sure I messed up and got confused quite a bit because it seems like if this were possible you guys would have already figured it out. Plus, it might be posted already and I'm just not very good at searching.

Re text highlighted in red by me--

I wonder if what Jesse heard was KC deliberately playing an old a/v clip of Caylee on the computer or in the video camera while Jesse was on the phone. She might have been hastily fabricating some sort of alibi at the time. Whenever KC takes the time to pay a little attention to poor Jesse, I automatically get suspicious of her motives.

I loved your post btw!

 

[Friday]

snipped above for space.....
I have been pounding this out in the back of my brain since I started working on the pings. June 13th is one day that bothers me the most because Caylee can not be accounted for.
Thanks for your commendable work, BJB.

One other explanation... Cindy stated that George had Friday and Saturdays off. Yuri took an anonymous call from a neighbor of G&C's that she was 90 some percent sure that Caylee was with Cindy that night.

Could Cindy or George have meet with her to pick up Caylee?


Could have she been near Jesse Grund's? I mean if I was him and watched Caylee that night I sure would never admit it because of the cloud of suspicion.
1. nobody would believe Casey if she said Jesse did babysit...
2. Caylee wasn't talking.
3. If nobody else knew... then it didn't happen.

Just a couple of thoughts. When I got to this date of figuring out the pings.. it just got depressing.

Jesse took a polygraph and--IIRC--he passed. Also, since Caylee was still very much alive on June 15th, he wouldn't be under a cloud of suspicion, would he?

Love your posts on this topic, btw.

 

[Wisteria]

I wonder if what Jesse heard was KC deliberately playing an old a/v clip of Caylee on the computer or in the video camera while Jesse was on the phone. She might have been hastily fabricating some sort of alibi at the time.

Bolded and snipped by me.

I totally agree. I have been reading this thread and was about to post the exact same thing. We must be suspect of anything KC says that cannot be proven by eye witness. She lies too much, even if poorly.

 

[MidAtlanticNative]

ITTA. In fact, since the 5:23PM ping was the result of a 2min call to Jesse I'd say it further supports Casey was not in the presence of Tony...more likely a trip to Gentiva.


I wish one of the Gentiva employee had noted this specific date in their statements. It was the last workday before Caylee went missing 6/16...albeit well before 7/16...so its undertstandable they didn't recall specifics...or if Casey met Cindy in the parking lot, perhaps they never knew.

I agree with your logic and believe that Casey probably was not with Tony at that particular time. However, don't forget that Tony mentioned Casey was in the habit of stepping away/outside when she was using her cell phone. Although Tony mentions (in his statements to LE) that it's because Casey didn't want him to hear all the Cindy drama, Casey could have been talking to anyone.

 

[Searchfortruth]

ITTA. In fact, since the 5:23PM ping was the result of a 2min call to Jesse I'd say it further supports Casey was not in the presence of Tony...more likely a trip to Gentiva.


I wish one of the Gentiva employee had noted this specific date in their statements. It was the last workday before Caylee went missing 6/16...albeit well before 7/16...so its undertstandable they didn't recall specifics...or if Casey met Cindy in the parking lot, perhaps they never knew.

Did Jesse ever say what that phone call was about ? I don't remember it being covered in an interview. I am curious as to why she would call Jesse, when she was trying to find a sitter for Caylee so that she could hurry back to Tony and Fusion...?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you so much for the compliment! :biggrin:

I did some searching, but I am still learning here (only joined in March) :thumb:. I've been getting the hang of it, slowly but surely! :snail: I'm making it my goal to be half as good as all you pro WSers are, but doubt I'll ever get there! :detective:

Thanks for pointing out that JG isn't sure about hearing Caylee in the background on the 16th, either. I didn't realize that....guess I should have researched a little bit better :blushing:.

:idea: I still don't think that it messes up my theory too much, though. She still had to be at the A's house and on the computer from 2-3 according to the HP usage info and everyone else's work schedules. That still leaves a time frame of around 3:00 until 4:30, right?

Bold is mine

You did a great job- don't doubt yourself, woman!:blowkiss:

 

[steadychick]

Allrighty guys....bear with me, cause I've been up all night looking at this stuff and thinking it through before I post. I have searched some and done a bit of scanning, but this may be posted elsewhere by someone who's a WAY more experienced WSer than I am. So, if I'm re-posting anyone else's theory, I'm SO SORRY and I would never take credit for any of this research because EVERYTHING that I looked over was in the calendar that you guys have put SO MUCH hard work into building. The thing that sparked my interest was the "draft email" that was brought up in another thread. I posted about wishing I could start on this case with a "fresh mind" and re-look at all the info.....so I decided that I would try it (do the best I could, anyway). So, I did a LOT of reading in the "draft" thread and used the linkes that the posters in there provided (you guys are SOO awesome) and started checking out the calendar for the month of June.
The two pieces of information that I focused on were the fact that Caylee was with CA on the 15th for Father's Day and that GA said he saw Caylee and CA leave the house shortly before 1pm on The 16th. I looked through everything that you guys put on the calendar from the doc dumps, LE interviews, phone conversations, ping maps and typical daily schedules for CA, GA, KC, and Caylee the most. I looked at some AH, JG, RM, and TL as well. This is what I came up with (have adult onset ADD so bear with me, please)

KC spent the evening of the 13th with TL at Fusian until around 3AM on the 14th after lying to all her other friends about George's "mini-stroke heart-attack" thingy. She pinged near Fusian until about 1:40AM and then pinged near AL's apartment around 2:50AM. She pinged near the A home around 3:15AM on the 14th (Saturday). She slept at the A's home for a while and then pinged next in route to TL's where she stayed from around 12:15-4pm Saturday afternoon before going back to the A's home and staying overnight (until Sunday the 15th, Father's Day) which is indicated by the 12:30AM-9:15 am pings at/near the A's home on the morning of the 15th.
KC left Caylee with CA, who took her to visit her GGfather at the nursing home and to eat chilli at her GGmother's house before returning home. CA stayed with TL for the entire day on the 15th (around 9:15AM until around 7:30PM) until she returned to the A's home around 7:30PM and stayed there through midnight (she pinged around 12:30AM at the A's on the 16th) and stayed at or near the A's residence all the way through 4:30PM the afternoon of the 16th.
GA's work schedule was 2-10PM on the afternoon/evening of the 16th, and he says that he saw KC and Caylee leave the house around 1PM. This could be true since GA wasn't scheduled to be at work until 2 (and CA wouldn't have been there to witness this because she worked from 8AM-5PM). However, KC still pinged around the A's home until 4:30 PM, indicating that she didn't go to "work" or anywhere else during that time period after she left the A's house. On the computer use information, the HP desktop at the A's house was being used at 84% from 2-3PM on the 16th. It couldn't have been GA or CA because they were both at work, meaning that KC is the only person that could have been using the computer between 2-3PM...so she had to have doubled back to the A's home after GA left for work. Then JG speaks to KC for 12 minutes starting at 2:52PM and hears Caylee in the background (keep in mind that he doesn't second guess whether or not he heard her on this phone call....it was the phone call on the 24th that he wasn't sure of). That means that Caylee was still alive at around 3:05PM (end of the phone call between KC and JG) on Monday the 16th.
After the JG phone call, there is a 30 minute gap in phone activity, followed by a 22 second phone call from KC to AL at 3:35PM. Then there is a 35 minute gap in phone activity until KC makes a 34 second phone call to GA around 4:10PM. Then there are four phone calls to CA (two at 4:11 and two at 4:13) followed by a 98 second call to GA at 4:14. Then she texts AL at 4:18 and appears (according to pings) to be traveling away from the A's home. She arrives at Al's apartment, calls JG two more times at 4:21and makes 6 phone calls to either CA or the A's home from 4:25-6:32 that evening. She makes a few calls to friends throughout the rest of the evening and stays the night at AL's apartment. This is when she "moves in" with TL (stops staying at the A's at night) and she doesn't have Caylee with her at all. The car gets backed into the A's garage for the first time the next day, the 17th and the invisinanny stories start on the 20th to TL about being able to stay all weekend and on the 27th to JG about who's keeping her while she's out partying.
I know I probably included a lot of info that wasn't really necessary, but I wanted to make sure that my thoughts were "flowing" correctly. I think I've narrowed down little Caylee's time of death to one of the two breaks in the cell phone activity on the 16th while she was at the A's house! Little Caylee was either murdered between 3:04-3:35 before KC called AL or between 3:35-4:10 when she called GA at work because NOBODY saw her or heard her little voice again after the phone call with JG that ended at 3:04PM on June 16th. That means that KC murdered her baby between 3:04 and 4:10 at her parent's house (just an hour or so before CA would have been home from work).

Please feel free to edit this and tear it apart however you need to. Like I said, I was up all night doing this psycho-crazy "figure it out" thing....so I'm sure I messed up and got confused quite a bit because it seems like if this were possible you guys would have already figured it out. Plus, it might be posted already and I'm just not very good at searching.

think this scenario also supports Caylee having been drugged, bound, and dying in the trunk that night of the 16th. That "flurry" of phone calls could have been KC desparately trying to find a sitter, but not being able to. Makes sense, too, given that the car was backed in the very next day.

Thanks for all the work you put into this, by the way. The timeline just seemed clearer the way you wrote it.

 

[2goldfish]

This is one thing the I feel LE should have done. But at that early stage of the game.. guess they did not think about Caylee being murdered in the house. I wish they would have taken the dog in.

I wonder if they could still get a scent at this late stage.

my bold-

I dont know, cause they sure thought of searching the outside (yes due to the borrowing of a shovel incident) I also never heard they were in the house but if I remember cadaverine isnt typically produced for about an hour and if the body was quickly removed the dogs might not have hit inside anyways

 

[Balthazar]

This is just an observation, but was anyone else struck by the fact that (and I'm assuming here) Cindy was calling Casey multiple times between 2 - 4 am every time Casey was supposedly working? The thing is, if Casey were a real event planner (which she's not) and if she actually was working (which she was not) she could have been fired for those calls because the nature of event planning work requires the planner to be client ready at all times. There is no time for personal calls during an event for an event planner. It makes me wonder how much Cindy interfered with Casey's real job at Universal and if Cindy's interference is why Casey just quit working.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Did Jesse ever say what that phone call was about ? I don't remember it being covered in an interview. I am curious as to why she would call Jesse, when she was trying to find a sitter for Caylee so that she could hurry back to Tony and Fusion...?

IIRC, Jesse did indicate that the nature of this call was Casey lamenting about her parents fighting and that she was going to have to find a place of her own. I hope you'll forgive me for not sourcing that recollection and just consider it FWIW.

This is problematic (a thread full of my ridiculous musings on the topic in "Amy's move-in with Casey explained" (or something similar to that) and "Tony's Statements tied to 6/15" (ditto). In those threads I tried to piece together the timing of Casey telling this story to Amy & Tony as indicative of when the deed went down.

Problem is...on the morning of 6/17 Casey gave Amy the Hopespring address so Amy could forward her mail :banghead: Although Casey later tells Amy things have fallen apart too, and I think Amy may have even said Casey's 6/16 afternoon call involved Casey telling about G&C fighting...the timing of this little forwarding-address detail just throws a monkey wrench into things for me.

Casey also told Tony the story about G&C fighting and not wanting Caylee to be around for that when she came to his place, IIRC.

Letting my mind wander a bit...(alright...alot )

I find it interesting that - as far as we know - Casey didn't seem to ever ask Jesse or Amy to watch Caylee. Apart from her legit babysitters (Lauren G., Kristina C. etc.) it doesn't seem that Casey ever really left Caylee with anyone on a whim...except Cindy, of course. :waitasec:

Perhaps Casey made pre-arrangements w/ Cindy the morning of 6/16 for an afternoon drop-off @ Gentiva??? :waitasec: Did Cindy call Casey @ 5:56PM on 6/16 expecting Casey to be showing up @ Gentiva w/ Caylee????

Let's look @ some specific instances to see if a pattern develops...:sleuth:

Monday, 6/9:

As noted before, there is also a "flurry" of calls to Cindy on the afternoon of Monday, 6/9 when Casey ended up taking Caylee to Ricardo's for the night. On that afternoon Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:42PM for a 6-minute conversation.​

Thursday, 6/12:

On Thursday, 6/12, Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:44PM for a 20-minute conversation. In this instance, Casey left Tony's and went directly to G&C's. - driving home as she talked to Cindy on the phone.​

Friday, 6/13

It has been speculated that Casey pre-planned a Friday, 6/13, Caylee drop-off w/ Cindy @ Gentiva, explaining how Caylee got safely to G&C's, yet there being an absence of calls 'tween Casey & Cindy that afternoon. This pre-planning would have had to have occurred 'tween Casey & Cindy before Cindy left for work Friday morning 6/13. The timing for a 6/13 drop-off would have been ~5:23PM (based on Casey's cell ping and call to Jesse @ this time...which would have been enroute to/from Gentiva).
​

Monday, 6/16:

Cindy appears to have had her cell phone off all day Monday, 6/16, until she attempted to call Casey in the evening ~5:56PM, IIRC, at which time Casey appears to have rejected* her call Speculating a rejected call since Casey's phone record does not show Cindy's incoming call, yet it does show a message waiting notification text 2 mins after Cindy placed the call. Timing of Casey turning her phone back on between 5:56 & 5:57PM is possible, but, unlikely, IMHO.​

Noted before that we don't get any specific dates referenced by the Gentiva employees of seeing Casey drop off Caylee...only accounts of it happening. It is understandable, but, disappointing that there were no accounts of a drop-off 6/13. We could take this to mean that the exchange sometimes occurred...say...in the parking lot (I know some accounts give Casey going inside).

So....just something else to consider re: "flurry" of calls and what they may be indicating. Perhaps one option is that the "flurry" of calls happen when Casey & Cindy have pre-arranged a drop-off of Caylee in the afternoon and Casey has a change in plans. :waitasec: IOW...Casey attempts to reach Cindy to let her know not to wait around/work later. While this seems overly-considerate & outta character for Casey...perhaps Casey had felt the wrath-of-Cindy if/when she hadn't done this before. Was 6/12 such an instance? Resulting in 6/13 being a perfectly-executed hand-off? :waitasec:

If we go this route...Casey having no record of Cindy's call @ 5:56PM, yet having a message regarding a (~2minute) message waiting from her 5:57:57PM 6/16 is VERY telling IMHO. This would mean IF a pre-arranged drop-off had been planned that Casey was actively avoiding it. This would be a clear indicator that the time of death was pre-5:56PM, or in-progress :shocked2:, IMHO. All built on speculation FWIW.

 

[AZlawyer]

IIRC, Jesse did indicate that the nature of this call was Casey lamenting about her parents fighting and that she was going to have to find a place of her own. I hope you'll forgive me for not sourcing that recollection and just consider it FWIW.

This is problematic (a thread full of my ridiculous musings on the topic in "Amy's move-in with Casey explained" (or something similar to that) and "Tony's Statements tied to 6/15" (ditto). In those threads I tried to piece together the timing of Casey telling this story to Amy & Tony as indicative of when the deed went down.

Problem is...on the morning of 6/17 Casey gave Amy the Hopespring address so Amy could forward her mail :banghead: Although Casey later tells Amy things have fallen apart too, and I think Amy may have even said Casey's 6/16 afternoon call involved Casey telling about G&C fighting...the timing of this little forwarding-address detail just throws a monkey wrench into things for me.

Casey also told Tony the story about G&C fighting and not wanting Caylee to be around for that when she came to his place, IIRC.

Letting my mind wander a bit...(alright...alot )

I find it interesting that - as far as we know - Casey didn't seem to ever ask Jesse or Amy to watch Caylee. Apart from her legit babysitters (Lauren G., Kristina C. etc.) it doesn't seem that Casey ever really left Caylee with anyone on a whim...except Cindy, of course. :waitasec:

Perhaps Casey made pre-arrangements w/ Cindy the morning of 6/16 for an afternoon drop-off @ Gentiva??? :waitasec: Did Cindy call Casey @ 5:56PM on 6/16 expecting Casey to be showing up @ Gentiva w/ Caylee????

Let's look @ some specific instances to see if a pattern develops...:sleuth:

Monday, 6/9:

As noted before, there is also a "flurry" of calls to Cindy on the afternoon of Monday, 6/9 when Casey ended up taking Caylee to Ricardo's for the night. On that afternoon Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:42PM for a 6-minute conversation.​

Thursday, 6/12:

On Thursday, 6/12, Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:44PM for a 20-minute conversation. In this instance, Casey left Tony's and went directly to G&C's. - driving home as she talked to Cindy on the phone.​

Friday, 6/13

It has been speculated that Casey pre-planned a Friday, 6/13, Caylee drop-off w/ Cindy @ Gentiva, explaining how Caylee got safely to G&C's, yet there being an absence of calls 'tween Casey & Cindy that afternoon. This pre-planning would have had to have occurred 'tween Casey & Cindy before Cindy left for work Friday morning 6/13. The timing for a 6/13 drop-off would have been ~5:23PM (based on Casey's cell ping and call to Jesse @ this time...which would have been enroute to/from Gentiva).
​

Monday, 6/16:

Cindy appears to have had her cell phone off all day Monday, 6/16, until she attempted to call Casey in the evening ~5:56PM, IIRC, at which time Casey appears to have rejected* her call Speculating a rejected call since Casey's phone record does not show Cindy's incoming call, yet it does show a message waiting notification text 2 mins after Cindy placed the call. Timing of Casey turning her phone back on between 5:56 & 5:57PM is possible, but, unlikely, IMHO.​

Noted before that we don't get any specific dates referenced by the Gentiva employees of seeing Casey drop off Caylee...only accounts of it happening. It is understandable, but, disappointing that there were no accounts of a drop-off 6/13. We could take this to mean that the exchange sometimes occurred...say...in the parking lot (I know some accounts give Casey going inside).

So....just something else to consider re: "flurry" of calls and what they may be indicating. Perhaps one option is that the "flurry" of calls happen when Casey & Cindy have pre-arranged a drop-off of Caylee in the afternoon and Casey has a change in plans. :waitasec: IOW...Casey attempts to reach Cindy to let her know not to wait around/work later. While this seems overly-considerate & outta character for Casey...perhaps Casey had felt the wrath-of-Cindy if/when she hadn't done this before. Was 6/12 such an instance? Resulting in 6/13 being a perfectly-executed hand-off? :waitasec:

If we go this route...Casey having no record of Cindy's call @ 5:56PM, yet having a message regarding a (~2minute) message waiting from her 5:57:57PM 6/16 is VERY telling IMHO. This would mean IF a pre-arranged drop-off had been planned that Casey was actively avoiding it. This would be a clear indicator that the time of death was pre-5:56PM, or in-progress :shocked2:, IMHO. All built on speculation FWIW.

This really makes sense to me as an alternative explanation for the "flurry" of calls in the late afternoon of the 16th--thanks!

 

[Searchfortruth]

IIRC, Jesse did indicate that the nature of this call was Casey lamenting about her parents fighting and that she was going to have to find a place of her own. I hope you'll forgive me for not sourcing that recollection and just consider it FWIW.

This is problematic (a thread full of my ridiculous musings on the topic in "Amy's move-in with Casey explained" (or something similar to that) and "Tony's Statements tied to 6/15" (ditto). In those threads I tried to piece together the timing of Casey telling this story to Amy & Tony as indicative of when the deed went down.

Problem is...on the morning of 6/17 Casey gave Amy the Hopespring address so Amy could forward her mail :banghead: Although Casey later tells Amy things have fallen apart too, and I think Amy may have even said Casey's 6/16 afternoon call involved Casey telling about G&C fighting...the timing of this little forwarding-address detail just throws a monkey wrench into things for me.

Casey also told Tony the story about G&C fighting and not wanting Caylee to be around for that when she came to his place, IIRC.

Letting my mind wander a bit...(alright...alot )

I find it interesting that - as far as we know - Casey didn't seem to ever ask Jesse or Amy to watch Caylee. Apart from her legit babysitters (Lauren G., Kristina C. etc.) it doesn't seem that Casey ever really left Caylee with anyone on a whim...except Cindy, of course. :waitasec:

Perhaps Casey made pre-arrangements w/ Cindy the morning of 6/16 for an afternoon drop-off @ Gentiva??? :waitasec: Did Cindy call Casey @ 5:56PM on 6/16 expecting Casey to be showing up @ Gentiva w/ Caylee????

Let's look @ some specific instances to see if a pattern develops...:sleuth:

Monday, 6/9:

As noted before, there is also a "flurry" of calls to Cindy on the afternoon of Monday, 6/9 when Casey ended up taking Caylee to Ricardo's for the night. On that afternoon Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:42PM for a 6-minute conversation.​

Thursday, 6/12:

On Thursday, 6/12, Cindy also placed a cell phone call to Casey @ 5:44PM for a 20-minute conversation. In this instance, Casey left Tony's and went directly to G&C's. - driving home as she talked to Cindy on the phone.​

Friday, 6/13

It has been speculated that Casey pre-planned a Friday, 6/13, Caylee drop-off w/ Cindy @ Gentiva, explaining how Caylee got safely to G&C's, yet there being an absence of calls 'tween Casey & Cindy that afternoon. This pre-planning would have had to have occurred 'tween Casey & Cindy before Cindy left for work Friday morning 6/13. The timing for a 6/13 drop-off would have been ~5:23PM (based on Casey's cell ping and call to Jesse @ this time...which would have been enroute to/from Gentiva).
​

Monday, 6/16:

Cindy appears to have had her cell phone off all day Monday, 6/16, until she attempted to call Casey in the evening ~5:56PM, IIRC, at which time Casey appears to have rejected* her call Speculating a rejected call since Casey's phone record does not show Cindy's incoming call, yet it does show a message waiting notification text 2 mins after Cindy placed the call. Timing of Casey turning her phone back on between 5:56 & 5:57PM is possible, but, unlikely, IMHO.​

Noted before that we don't get any specific dates referenced by the Gentiva employees of seeing Casey drop off Caylee...only accounts of it happening. It is understandable, but, disappointing that there were no accounts of a drop-off 6/13. We could take this to mean that the exchange sometimes occurred...say...in the parking lot (I know some accounts give Casey going inside).

So....just something else to consider re: "flurry" of calls and what they may be indicating. Perhaps one option is that the "flurry" of calls happen when Casey & Cindy have pre-arranged a drop-off of Caylee in the afternoon and Casey has a change in plans. :waitasec: IOW...Casey attempts to reach Cindy to let her know not to wait around/work later. While this seems overly-considerate & outta character for Casey...perhaps Casey had felt the wrath-of-Cindy if/when she hadn't done this before. Was 6/12 such an instance? Resulting in 6/13 being a perfectly-executed hand-off? :waitasec:

If we go this route...Casey having no record of Cindy's call @ 5:56PM, yet having a message regarding a (~2minute) message waiting from her 5:57:57PM 6/16 is VERY telling IMHO. This would mean IF a pre-arranged drop-off had been planned that Casey was actively avoiding it. This would be a clear indicator that the time of death was pre-5:56PM, or in-progress :shocked2:, IMHO. All built on speculation FWIW.

:clap::clap::clap:

Thank you SO much BJB for this excellent post ! You really have a gift ! I had never thought of the phone call pattern this way, but patterns are human nature and this does make sense ! I am going to say once again, though many have echoed the same sentiments, I SO appreciate ALL the hard work you and the other fine WS'ers have provided for us other WS'ers !!!!!!!!!

 

[BondJamesBond]

:clap::clap::clap:

Thank you SO much BJB for this excellent post ! You really have a gift ! I had never thought of the phone call pattern this way, but patterns are human nature and this does make sense ! I am going to say once again, though many have echoed the same sentiments, I SO appreciate ALL the hard work you and the other fine WS'ers have provided for us other WS'ers !!!!!!!!!

You're too kind, Search. :blushing: Although I imagine for every one of these TY's there are prolly 10 others groanin', "Don't! Don't encourage him!!" :doh:

I DO hafta join you in the :clap: for all of "the other fine WS'ers" +1 :thumb:!

Kinda OT, but this reminds me of something. After JWG pointed out (and in-character so kindly attributed to the original WS) something a rare-poster highlighted the other day (and we all kinda blew past @ the time)...and recalling a rare-poster that highlighted the apparent delay Casey made on her trip to Tony's 6/16 ~5PM...I'm reminded how many WS's are out there lurking...that have terrific insights that we're not benefiting from yet. True sleuthers IYKWIM. I'd really like to hear more from those folks. Encourage them to share their finds. I mean...geez...I've eaten up enough real estate on this forum already. And I kinda get a chuckle outta peeps lurkin', chortling @ their monitors readin' my posts something like, "Well...DUH!! :doh: idiot ...'bout time you noticed that..."

Back on-topic. I've struggled w/ nailing the transition that had to occur. And by that I mean pre-t.o.d. Casey would've in her m.o. been cordial enough w/ Cindy...esp. when it suited her own selfish needs, but, post-t.o.d. Casey would've avoided Cindy and the transition should be marked. Obviously we see that on 6/17, but, I've always wanted to figure out if we could back that up somehow to learn something about 6/16...and the "flurry" is just sooooo tempting. The phone records regarding the call that Casey didn't get from Cindy, yet, it apparently went into a 2minute vmail, IIRC, to me seems like the possible indicator of when the tide changed...just possibly.

I hafta add too I think it was something that AZLawyer, JWG, et.al. pointed out when we were discussing how Caylee was handed off Friday, 6/13, (one I completely missed :bang that made me start thinking along the lines of the 'flurry' being related to a Casey-Cindy pre-arranged Caylee-handoff stand down situation. So...if we ever find out that's what the flurry was all about...then underscore the "other fine WS'ers"...if it turns out to be somethin' else...well...just remember all my speculation comes w/ a money-back guarrantee ...worth exactly what you paid for it Actually, less when you subtract out the value of your time readin' it