Afghanistan's dirty little secret

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by porkchop, Sep 1, 2010.

  1. porkchop

    porkchop New Member

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    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/28/INF21F2Q9H.DTL

    This is just sick. But actually me and my friend from Saudi Arabia were talking back when the US first invaded Afghanistan and he was telling about how this was going on there. He was saying that before the Taliban took over, Afghanistan was the Middle East hub for child trafficking and prostitution. He said that the one good thing that Taliban rule did in Afghanistan was to outlaw this and make it punishable by death. :furious:
     
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  3. Nova

    Nova Active Member

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    There are reasons why extremist groups prosper in some areas. Often, they are replacing even worse--or at least seemingly worse--situations.

    This in no way means I am pro-Taliban or any other totalitarian group, nor am I excusing their terrorism or connection to Al Qada.

    I'm just saying people don't embrace extremism because they are bewitched. More often they are desperate.
     
  4. essies

    essies "We're all just walking each other home." Ram Dass

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    We had a thread about the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan which linked to a PBS documentary-here's the link.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...cingboys/view/
    It's appalling the way innocents of the world are treated-like something disposable to be used and thrown away!!:furious:
     
  5. tiredofthis

    tiredofthis New Member

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    :puke: The first time I have ever used this, but the article definitely deserves it and more.
     
  6. ziggy

    ziggy New Member

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    I posted this on my Facebook and expect to be lambasted - especially by my Muslim cousins, but oh well. Hey - it's a story and it's interesting - I think as awful as it is, it's very interesting and it makes sense that when the men are denied women, DENIED even looking at them and talking to them, and taught that women are unclean, dirty, gross and only for making children - why wouldn't they find the pleasures of the flesh elsewhere? I mean they've adapted. It's really a lesson in how the oppression of women is BAD for men as well as women and now it's also VERY BAD for little boys.

    What a sad world they have. They seem so cave man like - very unenlightened without the slightest desire to change or the ability to look at the world and see a better life or a better way and think hmmmmm.....maybe this way isn't so good. They simply do not question and I find that the most dangerous type of religion of all - the one that followers DO NOT question.
     
  7. mom2six

    mom2six New Member

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    Not to get too political, but this is exactly why governments need to use the ultimate caution in deposing and instating other governments in other countries/cultures. I don't think "reform" of any sovereign state will be effective unless it is fostered from within by the people. It is noble to want freedom for all peoples of the world. All peoples deserve freedom, but it won't happen because we (or anyone) hand it to them. They have to earn it or they won't keep it. Pretty true of most anything.
     
  8. ziggy

    ziggy New Member

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    oops; my cousin is mad now on Facebook - family wars have begun apparently. Here was her response after I commented that I had no earthly idea this went on and got quite the education on the internet today:

    "That is not an education that is a brain wash against Muslims because real Muslims find it just as disgusting!!!! Its like saying Christians in the US support NAMBLA. Expand your mind beyond cultural practice and separate it from true Islam.... Islam means submission to the will of God. I hardly believe real faith abiders consider this to be an Islam practice, but then so many in this country follow the govt. propaganda so I should not be so offended and shocked. Why is it that as soon as someone becomes Christian they think it is their duty to hate, judge, and focus on finding smut to convince others that Christianity is the way. I am so glad I am Muslim. I have many Christian friends and family. Some are true to Jesus PBUH and they are sweet, generous and wonderful. The rest well they are so obviously hateful."

    I didn't intimate in any way that all muslims were like this, only a certain sect and that from a sociolgical point of view it seems to me the natural consequences of an unnatural way of life (with respect to the way women are treated, covered etc.) I doubt she read the article. I thought it made sense in a really creepy way...which is why it's important to look at. Is the way they cover women, isolate them, think of them as dirty animals really healthy for their society?
     
  9. Nova

    Nova Active Member

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    ziggy, I think your posts make perfect sense. And while your cousin is right that strict Islamic regimes ban homosexuality (and punish it with death), whether she likes it or not, there is also a longstanding tradition in certain Muslim countries of "looking the other way" in terms of sex with boys and young men.

    In fact, there used to be quite a tradition of Northern Europeans (particularly the British apparently) going to Morocco to enjoy the young men. (I'm talking late teens now, not small children, though no doubt the latter occurred as well.) And there is considerable literature on the subject.

    See, for just one example, British playwright Joe Orton's diaries, which are available in paperback.

    Frankly, I agree with you that extreme segregation of the sexes causes all sorts of perversions. I'm not talking about restrooms or even all-boy and all-girl schools here (though the stories from the latter are rather amazing and a case could be made that they produce weird adolescent behavior). I'm talking about cultures that are so chauvinist and sex-phobic that women are quite literally locked away at home, under burkas, etc.

    I've even read articles that suggest the frequency of Islamic terrorism by young men is a partial result of the frustration resulting from the way they are segregated from the opposite sex. It's a theory, obviously, and hard to prove scientifically, but it makes sense to me.

    Bottom line for me: diversity is good. Homogeneous groups are almost always odd is some way.
     
  10. ziggy

    ziggy New Member

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    Thanks Nova - while we often disagree, I have enormous respect for your intellect, rational thinking and the fact that your posts reflect that over pure emotion.

    First, my cousin is a white woman with red hair and freckles in her mid 60's who converted to Islam because one of her sons is a mixed race black muslim...well that's not really the reason. Throughout her life (which has been sad at times) she has done extreme things for attention. I feel that because she has Christian and Jewish siblings (I know, I could write a book on my family) I think that being Muslim to her is just another "shocking" thing. I equate her actions to the girl who pays $6,000 for a new set of huge boobs and then complains that men look at them :)

    So here's the big question I'm dying to ask a Muslim who says that a real believer would condemn this action; would a real believer also condemn requiring the women to cover up and not talk to men she does not know?

    If so, then to me, a real believer perpetuates this action and others that come from the pent up frustrations of men - who are plagued by their God given or Allah given urges. How they make sense of that puzzles me.

    Another thought came to me last night; These people live in a dry, very desolate looking place and most of them are poor. They don't have beautiful things our earthly life can make pleasing - they don't have resorts, lawns in their yards, cute patios with potted tomatoes etc. Their lives look absolutely VOID of many simple pleasures and then we add on top of that they don't even get the most wonderful pleasure of all (not sex pervos) ...... a chance to FALL IN LOVE. They seem to be loveless people. Only love can destroy hate. The fact that Islam seems to prevent that really bothers me.
     
  11. Nova

    Nova Active Member

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    Thanks, ziggy.

    I think what is "real" -- like what is "beautiful" -- is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

    The family in which I was raised couldn't have been more religious or more conservative. Yet they believed the Bible was written in metaphorical language and didn't for a moment think the world was created in 6 24-hour days. So Fundamentalists might say they weren't "real" Christians.

    I think those who believe in burkas think they are "real", but so do those who think Islam and modern customs can be reconciled.

    I certainly agree with you that poverty has an influence here.

    But as for beauty, I know you live in one of the most beautiful areas of the country. And many would say, so do I. Yet I live in a parched desert where almost everyone who lives here does so by choice. We think a wide expanse of sand and exposed-rock hills and mountains are just as beautiful as a vineyard. (As a matter of fact, a lot of people from your area end up retiring here.)
     
  12. ziggy

    ziggy New Member

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    You're right, except that most of the places I see in the poorer Middle Eastern Countries could use some irrigation and landscaping to compete with your desert!
     
  13. Nova

    Nova Active Member

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    It's true we do have a lot of palm trees, especially here in Palm Springs. Less so in the rest of the valley.

    But with the projected water shortages and though palm trees are fairly drought resistance, whether the greenery can be maintained much longer remains to be seen. In the meantime, lots of us (including me) have rock yards instead of grass. Seems more responsible and, frankly, rocks are beautiful too.

    You are right, of course, that much of the worst extremism comes from places where people are so concerned with getting enough to eat, landscaping isn't really an issue.
     
  14. Nova

    Nova Active Member

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    I'll add one other thought. Our concept of childhood as a time where children must be protected and developed slowly is really a modern concept. Only a few decades more than a century old.

    As I'm sure you know, children were sent to work 12-hours/6 days per week in factories in Victorian England.

    Some of the countries we are talking about (though certainly not all Muslim countries) haven't progressed much past the 18th century, if not the Middle Ages.

    Without our modern concept of childhood, prostituting your kid when the family is starving isn't such a big leap. Particularly boys, since a boy's virginity isn't a matter of family honor in the same way as a girl's. Girls lose their economic value in cultures where loss of virginity (even through rape, though personally I don't think a rape victim has "lost" her virginity) makes them no longer marriage material.
     

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