Found Deceased AL - Kamille "Cupcake" McKinney, 3, kidnapped from birthday party, Birmingham, 12 Oct 2019 #5

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Wow! I wonder if police actually said this? The limp???

That’s HUGE if so?

from the article Kamille ‘Cupcake’ McKinney’s family 'hurting, impatient’ as search reaches day 10
@PommyMommy linked in quote.

“Police said the man with the limp is a suspect in the case. They have not said whether they have identified or located him. They asked that the other man in the video come forward as a witness in the case.“

From the article:

[...]

"We’re growing more impatient,'' said Kamille’s father, 27-year-old Dominic McKinney. “We’re hurting. I don’t know what else to say.”

“I can’t imagine that being my daughter‚” Birmingham Mayor Randall Woodfin said Tuesday morning. “It’s tough for Kamille’s mother, her father, it’s tough for her grandparents ... to see the look on their face, to see the hurt in their heart and see the concern, genuine concern, about where their child, where their grandchild is.”

[...]

Police said the man with the limp is a suspect in the case. They have not said whether they have identified or located him. They asked that the other man in the video come forward as a witness in the case.

[...]

Birmingham police returned to his rented Woodside Condominiums home Monday evening to carry out a search warrant of the condo, which has been padlocked by the owner. Property management said police have been there almost every day, including over the weekend when they searched apartments that are now uninhabitable following an September fire there.

[...]

During the investigation into Kamille’s abduction, investigators learned that she had tried to contact the victims in the 2018 case, which was in violation of her bond. After a hearing Monday, a judge revoked Brown’s bond in last year’s charges.

[...]

Multiple search operations have been conducted – some of which have been made public, and many others that have not. They’ve used tracking dogs, and sometimes Jefferson County’s Star 1 helicopter.

[...]
 
Kamille ‘Cupcake’ McKinney’s family 'hurting, impatient’ as search reaches day 10

Updates from the article today:

"A team of police officers on Tuesday morning stopped a white Nissan Altima after receiving a 911 call from a man who thought he spotted Kamille “Cupcake” McKinney inside the sedan on 19th Street in Irondale.

Police responded to the scene and began a search for the vehicle. They found it a short time later on Crestwood Boulevard near the Irondale-Birmingham city limits.
Officers surrounded the vehicle only to learn that the driver had just dropped her own daughter off at daycare.

Less than two hours later, Birmingham police responded to a Center Point parking lot.
A woman said she had a tip for investigators in the ongoing probe into the Oct. 12 disappearance of the 3-year-old little girl last seen wearing a pink and leopard-print Minnie Mouse t-shirt and no shoes."

This means LE is still jumping at any lead. Makes me wonder if they have any idea who is responsible MOO
 
Kamille ‘Cupcake’ McKinney’s family 'hurting, impatient’ as search reaches day 10

Updates from the article today:

"A team of police officers on Tuesday morning stopped a white Nissan Altima after receiving a 911 call from a man who thought he spotted Kamille “Cupcake” McKinney inside the sedan on 19th Street in Irondale.

Police responded to the scene and began a search for the vehicle. They found it a short time later on Crestwood Boulevard near the Irondale-Birmingham city limits.
Officers surrounded the vehicle only to learn that the driver had just dropped her own daughter off at daycare.

Less than two hours later, Birmingham police responded to a Center Point parking lot.
A woman said she had a tip for investigators in the ongoing probe into the Oct. 12 disappearance of the 3-year-old little girl last seen wearing a pink and leopard-print Minnie Mouse t-shirt and no shoes."

This means LE is still jumping at any lead. Makes me wonder if they have any idea who is responsible MOO
Sounds pretty dangerous. We know police encounters with private citizens don't always end up well. People looking into cars for little girls and calling it in might not end up well.
 
Wow! I wonder if police actually said this? The limp???

That’s HUGE if so?

from the article Kamille ‘Cupcake’ McKinney’s family 'hurting, impatient’ as search reaches day 10
@PommyMommy linked in quote.

“Police said the man with the limp is a suspect in the case. They have not said whether they have identified or located him. They asked that the other man in the video come forward as a witness in the case.“

I know some here have speculated about a limp but I don’t recall it ever being mentioned by police or media. Could it be the reporter got that info from police? If she did and the police failed to point that out in the presser, shame on them! That’s a HUGE point.
 
What I find strange is there's been no mention of anyone taking a polygraph.
Law enforcement wouldn’t mention that, and the only way it would be disclosed, is if the person who took the polygraph disclosed it.

Barring a leak, we shouldn’t hear about it one way or the other.
 
I keep waiting for news of a conclusion to this case. There are so many opportunities for this to have been solved as far as who committed this crime. I can only believe at this point their main objective is physically finding Kamille. And by not revealling the kidnapper they are trying to have them reveal where she is.
1. DNA..ample time for results.
2. Second child in video had to have seen what happened after they went out of view on the video.
3. They say they know who, and even call him a suspect, the second person in the video is.
4. Grid search in area they knew he frequents? How do they know this and not know who he is?

So many things not explained and quite frankly make no sense to me. I am beginning to believe the information is coming totally from the street. And this is not a bad thing because the street usually knows more and is more willing to share it. I'm rambling here because I'm trying to be concise and stick to the logic and facts we know. This is just my opinion!
I've had my own suspicions but I can't post them here due to the TOS. I don't know if I believe that this is a stranger abduction. JMO
 
Does anyone know what time Fred was first on location here? None of his video is time stamped and I’m not sure if anyone figured it out. I think it’s worth knowing because of the supposed delay in getting the AA out.

I screenshot the screen and it says 10:29. Trying to manipulate photo size so I can add.

He also says “we are already off the air and it’s Saturday Night Live”, which would fit with that time.


Thanks you. So the timeline as we know it is as follows;
8:30 police are notified of abduction.
10;30 Fred says Chip was on scene before him. (Fred’s video)
11:00 Chip makes a remark about “last 30-45min” so we can count on him being there by at least 10:15 (Chips video)

I guess what I’m thinking is LE did not immediately recognize this as a kidnapping or media would have been there way before. Unless media just didn’t want to start reporting until it was confirmed because media would have known multiple units where called out. They’ve got the best scanners out there and monitor them like hawks. This isn’t tactical so they would be listening. No way multiple police units get called to a scene without media knowing it. Hmmmmm

Also. in Chips video look at the footage from 11:20 onward. There is a disturbance (argument/fight/screaming) and cameras catch some of the players (don’t think I can mention names). Looks like it was getting physical. Right before Chip already said there was another disturbance earlier. I’m GUESSING someone showed up around that time and might have been making their, say disappointment known, to one of the players. You can clearly see this player walking away after police tell her to “get back”. Very interesting.

The video time that facebook shows may depend on your timezone. Mine shows 8:32 PM:
upload_2019-10-22_16-59-13.png

I am in the Eastern time zone but I am not logged into facebook. Alabama is central time zone. This is confusing to me because if it's 8:32 for me then it's 7:32 in Alabama. But that can't be correct, can it? I'm thinking possibly that since I'm not logged in to a FB account, then FB might be showing me the correct local time (AL time)? That would mean that Fred arrived on the scene right at around 8:30 PM and the police were already there. Thoughts on the time discrepancy?

MOO.
 

From the article:

[...]

"We’re growing more impatient,'' said Kamille’s father, 27-year-old Dominic McKinney. “We’re hurting. I don’t know what else to say.”

“I can’t imagine that being my daughter‚” Birmingham Mayor Randall Woodfin said Tuesday morning. “It’s tough for Kamille’s mother, her father, it’s tough for her grandparents ... to see the look on their face, to see the hurt in their heart and see the concern, genuine concern, about where their child, where their grandchild is.”

[...]

Police said the man with the limp is a suspect in the case. They have not said whether they have identified or located him. They asked that the other man in the video come forward as a witness in the case.

[...]

Birmingham police returned to his rented Woodside Condominiums home Monday evening to carry out a search warrant of the condo, which has been padlocked by the owner. Property management said police have been there almost every day, including over the weekend when they searched apartments that are now uninhabitable following an September fire there.

[...]

During the investigation into Kamille’s abduction, investigators learned that she had tried to contact the victims in the 2018 case, which was in violation of her bond. After a hearing Monday, a judge revoked Brown’s bond in last year’s charges.

[...]

Multiple search operations have been conducted – some of which have been made public, and many others that have not. They’ve used tracking dogs, and sometimes Jefferson County’s Star 1 helicopter.

[...]
Thanks @HayLouise and @PommyMommy! That answers one of my main questions - have search warrants been served. I'd figured as much but hadn't heard a lot about particulars.

I'm still wondering why the perp only took Cupcake. The way they followed him in the video implies it wouldn't have been too difficult to grab both. MOO.
 
The video time that facebook shows may depend on your timezone. Mine shows 8:32 PM:

I am in the Eastern time zone but I am not logged into facebook. Alabama is central time zone. This is confusing to me because if it's 8:32 for me then it's 7:32 in Alabama. But that can't be correct, can it? I'm thinking possibly that since I'm not logged in to a FB account, then FB might be showing me the correct local time (AL time)? That would mean that Fred arrived on the scene right at around 8:30 PM and the police were already there. Thoughts on the time discrepancy?

MOO.

That’s is strange. I never listened all the way to the end of Chip’s video until today. When it first goes to the static missing person screen I fast forwarded to the end and it was the same screen. However, he comes back live some where around 35min and makes some remarks about time. From what I’m gathering Chip got there at 10:15, Fred about 10:30. Both reported that police said she went missing at 8:30. I guess my question is the old saying “who told you and when did you know it”? ie: when was the 911 call placed? Are we to believe it was maybe 10-15 min prior to Chips arrival at 10:15 so approx 90 min could have transpired before law enforcement was notified. I find this timing odd.
 
I’m central time zone. More importantly he says that Saturday night live is on in the very beginning of the video. That comes on at 10:30 pm . I feel certain it’s 10:30 pm
The video time that facebook shows may depend on your timezone. Mine shows 8:32 PM:
View attachment 210516

I am in the Eastern time zone but I am not logged into facebook. Alabama is central time zone. This is confusing to me because if it's 8:32 for me then it's 7:32 in Alabama. But that can't be correct, can it? I'm thinking possibly that since I'm not logged in to a FB account, then FB might be showing me the correct local time (AL time)? That would mean that Fred arrived on the scene right at around 8:30 PM and the police were already there. Thoughts on the time discrepancy?

MOO.
 
Maybe that’s why LE complained about not being notified right away.

I wonder if we could go back and listen to scanner? Anyone have access?
That’s is strange. I never listened all the way to the end of Chip’s video until today. When it first goes to the static missing person screen I fast forwarded to the end and it was the same screen. However, he comes back live some where around 35min and makes some remarks about time. From what I’m gathering Chip got there at 10:15, Fred about 10:30. Both reported that police said she went missing at 8:30. I guess my question is the old saying “who told you and when did you know it”? ie: when was the 911 call placed? Are we to believe it was maybe 10-15 min prior to Chips arrival at 10:15 so approx 90 min could have transpired before law enforcement was notified. I find this timing odd.
 
I’m central time zone. More importantly he says that Saturday night live is on in the very beginning of the video. That comes on at 10:30 pm . I feel certain it’s 10:30 pm

Ok, that's strange then that it is showing at 8:30 for me. Maybe that's facebook's default timezone if you're not logged in? :confused:

ETA: I do believe you are right about the 10:30 time. I'm just a bit confused because we heard Chip starting his Live video at the end of Fred's video. I was under the impression that Chip started his video around 10:30 because he says something about police being there "since 8:30 and that was 2 hours ago" (my paraphrase). That would mean Fred started his Live closer to 9:30 or 10 PM. MOO.
 
Last edited:
Maybe that’s why LE complained about not being notified right away.

I wonder if we could go back and listen to scanner? Anyone have access?
So I am just home from work trying to catch up so forgive me if already discussed. Last night I watched the first FB Live post from Chip. Ironically I had JUST finished watching one of the Dads first interviews. I went to bed with quite a few notes to look over. Anyway, after watching this most recent FB live post, he kept telling people the Amber Alert should happen soon but it had to go through proper levels. Did some digging... each State has their own rules but it seems that the guidelines say if child under 10 then the amber alert should be immediate. Anyone have insight into this? The father of CC in his interview (not sure if I can say this :/ or if I can post link to the interview. SORRY) was saying he and CC’s mom had just gotten back from the station where they were kept separate and questioned. So did LE delay the Amber Alert? Do we have any documentation of the exact time 911 was called? All along I have had a feeling it was NOT a stranger IMO. Hope I didn’t break rules :/
 
I’m central time zone. More importantly he says that Saturday night live is on in the very beginning of the video. That comes on at 10:30 pm . I feel certain it’s 10:30 pm

I think you’re right and both our timelines correct regarding media. I’m more interested when the police had multiple units called to the property? That would have been accessed by scanner. I’ve got a scanner nut friend who told me the normal channels a not encrypted and he listens all the time.
 
Anyway, after watching this most recent FB live post, he kept telling people the Amber Alert should happen soon but it had to go through proper levels. Did some digging... each State has their own rules but it seems that the guidelines say if child under 10 then the amber alert should be immediate. Anyone have insight into this?

RSBM

According to this document on Amber Alert in Alabama, the child has to be under 18 years old. No immediate treatment for a younger child.

http://al-ba.com/wp2/things-you-should-know-about-alabamas-amber-alert-plan/
 
Reposting these video summaries for discussion (Quoting in the order in which the videos were made instead of the order I summarized them):

FRED's Live Video from Oct 12, 2019


My summary/observations/opinions:

Fred Davenport with WVTM 13 News says "We're already off the air, it's Saturday night live" as he shows a police car parked at Tom Brown Village. We briefly see a glimpse of the other reporter there, Chip Scarborough, walking out of camera view and looking down at his phone. (They seem to be standing in the area that was later taped off with crime scene tape. MOO.).

FD says he wants to get out a "pretty serious story", typically we wouldn't hear from him on Saturday but he stopped what he was doing to get the info out. There is a young girl missing. He holds up a phone with KM's picture and says her name and that she is missing from Tom Brown Village, it's considered North Avondale, 41st street is the closest street. He asks people to screenshot and share that she is missing from Birmingham. Birmingham police are there investigating.

FD says he was talking with his coworker CS who has been there along with Adam (no last name) getting info. There was a birthday party that took place there. FD says that the parents or supervisors of the child stepped away at some point and a "black SUV" approached. A man inside that SUV had taken the child. An 11 year boy actually witnessed the incident and reported it. So now they are still looking for the girl. He repeats KM's name and says she goes by "Cupcake". He says there is no tag number for the SUV at this time. They are waiting on BPD to release all the details to find out if the vehicle description is accurate. We hear a woman talking to FD and telling him that the vehicle is Black or Dark blue with a Brown bumper. FD says it's a Toyota Forerunner, Black or Blue with a brown bumper that protrudes or sticks out, the bumper could be damaged. FD says the info is from Carol Robertson standing next to him.

About 3:50 minutes in he says KM has been missing "Since eight tonight". (This is the earliest time I have seen reported and probably accurate based on the video LE later released of the kids playing. For some reason most other reports said 8:30. Perhaps 8:30 is when the reporters first arrived on scene? MOO.)

People are asking the reporter why no Amber Alert. He says it doesn't come out automatically, it has to go through several levels but he was told they are working on an Amber Alert, it is underway. He shows KM's photo again, repeating she is missing from Tom Brown Village and adds that TBV is in North Avondale near Kingston. He tells the viewers how to screenshot the image to share.

FD says multiple BPD officiers are there working the case. He pans and we see two police cars there. On the road between the 2 police cars there are circular skid marks (not sure if it's related/relevant). FD says a lot of people who live in the housing complex are out there. He repeats the story about there being a birthday party, the parents stepping away from the child for a few moments, and the vehicle description. A man grabbed the child and all of it was witnessed by an 11 year old boy.

FD asks someone nearby if there are any more details on the car to share. We hear the additional detail that the bumper was described as "Peanut Butter Brown". FD moves over to tell CS the vehicle details he got from the officer. CS says he is standing by to do a "TV cut in". FD comes back to talk to the FB live and says "the car has rims on it. Possibly a Forerunner. It's a Toyota, Black or Blue but it has a front bumper on it that is brown in color. If you see that vehicle call 911. The child may be in that car. The child is considered in danger."

FD shows the photo of KM again. He is not sure if the photo was taken that day (It was. MOO.) because it is cold outside today. He tells us she goes by "Cupcake" and she is three.

We hear a woman laughing loudly somewhere there. He repeats that an AA is underway. Your phones should go off once the AA is approved to be sent out to the public. We see a police officer getting something out of a parked police car and there is more hysterical laughing from a woman. (It seems to me that people are going about their business on a Saturday night having fun and not everyone out there is looking for KM or aware of the situation yet. MOO.)

The comments ask FD what the scene is like and he says it's calm, there are multiple officers there but there is no blocked off area, no checkpoints to get to the scene. FD had been told before he got there there had been some issues with crowd control or people upset, understandably so since a 3 year old is missing. (We don't see very many people in the video. FD is maintaining a far distance from the people outside and focusing on the police cars. MOO.)

About 13:20 in FD reads the AA guidelines. We hear a sound and he says his station just sent out an alert which will go to a lot of phones. AA Guidelines: LE must confirm that an abduction has taken place. The child must be at risk of serious injury or death. There must be a sufficient descriptive info about the captor or captor's vehicle. The child must be a minor, under 18. FD says that with social media we can really get out info about the child missing.

He shows the photo of KM again and says they can screenshot it or they can go to the news stations page and they just pushed out the story that can be shared. He repeats vehicle info and says call 911 if anyone sees the vehicle.

People are asking FD via comments why hasn't the AA come out yet and he says they are making sure they get all that info and that it is correct that the AA info has to be correct the first time it goes out. Y'all have to be patient. For now just share what we have put out to the public.

FD mentions again that the vehicle has rims on it, black or blue with brown bumper and rims. There was a birthday party, a man got out of the vehicle and grabbed the girl. An 11 year old boy witnessed this all unfold. The reporter does not know which direction the vehicle was heading.

FD asks a police officer if they had a tag number. The reply is that as far as he knows there wasn't one. FD asks if there was a description of the captor. The answer is No.

About 22 minutes in FD talks to Carol about the many comments he is getting saying they had seen KM at McDonalds in Roebuck. She heard the baby was seen at Eastlake Park looking for her mom. (Seems they are getting many tips about children who look like KM. MOO.) FD tells his viewers that police have been notified about the McDonalds sighting.

There are at least 4 police cars on the scene that we can see. The reporters discuss quietly in the background if there is anything else to say. Female reporter (Carol?) is talking about how she has worn the same clothes all day, on every shot they have done and the commenters on live have noticed her clothing for some reason. People are also mad that she said "projects" and not apartments when she reported on it. She says something like "did you not know this is the Avondale ***** " (I can't hear the starred out words-- possibly she says "everyone calls it Avondale murder projects"? MOO). FD says loudly it's Tom Brown Village in Avondale. FD goes back to talking to his viewers and says he has seen the tips they are all talking about but nothing has been confirmed.

About 24 minutes in FD shows KM's photo again. We see a number of police officers walking around in the background and background noise seems to have increased with many more people milling around and talking. A police officer opens the trunk of his vehicle and closes it. FD says LE is about to put up tape "for crowd control". Carol in the background says they have been working on the AA for 30 minutes. FD asks if they have all the criteria met for an AA and she says yes.

FD says the PIO is working to get more info for the reporters to share with the public. Someone asks where the mother is and FD is not sure. Cars are being moved out the immediate area where FD is standing. The crowd of people talking to LE seems to be growing. FD says he doesn't know anything about the crowd behind him and they are talking about putting him on camera because it's an urgent matter. A police officer comes waving his or her arms to tell people to move back from the area. A woman (Carol?) asks if she needs to move her car. Another woman answers "if you don't want to get stuck in here..." FD asks where they want him and he moves to the sidewalk. He says he only has 20% left on his battery. Hopefully the AA will go out as soon as possible.

FD repeats the vehicle info one last time and asks Carol if she is leaving. FD walks down the sidewalk and says he has to head out but Chip is staying and a new live should be up for viewers to click on. FD has to be somewhere else in Birmingham. We see the yellow crime scene tape up now (last minute of the video). FD has to go under the tape to get out. Chip is going to take over getting the info out to the public. We hear Chip in the background starting his Live reporting.

FD signs off and says that if there is anything new they will have it. Chip is the one working the rest of tonight.

MOO.

Fred's Live (summarized above):
Chip's Live that followed:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHIP's Live Video from Oct 12, 2019

My summary/observations/opinions:

Interesting that the reporter repeats several times in the beginning that it is a "confirmed kidnapping" and not a custody dispute. He says an 11 year old boy witnessed a man drive up, get out of a dark SUV, pick up KM, put her into the SUV and drive away. The SUV was described as a dark Toyota with a "brown bumper" and that there is damage to the vehicle. He says possibly a Forerunner. (Which we now know turned out to be the wrong model-- it was a Sequoia).

(Since the reporter is describing the kidnapping in front of the taped off area, it seems that is likely where the vehicle drove up and the man grabbed KM. Can anyone add a square representing this taped area to our existing maps? It would be good to see where it is in relation to the camera and where the girls were playing).

He says both parents are on the scene and visibly shaken/upset. He can see KM's dad there. He says the parents had "stepped away for a few moments" when the kidnapping happened. (I don't think that has been reported anywhere else-- later sources made it seem like the parents were not there and that KM was in the care of a relative at the time she was kidnapped. The reporter may be mistaken. MOO).

This video was before the Amber Alert was sent out but the reporter says that they expect an AA soon because of it being a confirmed kidnapping. He says in the beginning of the video that this started about 8:30 PM or about 2 hours ago. So this video is CS reporting from around 10:30 PM to about 11:45 PM on Oct 12.

About 6 minutes in there is a big commotion in the background-- a woman is screaming something unintelligible. The reporter thinks the commotion means she was found. People are yelling something about McDonalds so the reporter asks if she was at McDonalds and which one, if it was the one by the hospital. We can see the Great Grandparents in the background talking to a LEO. A woman pounds her fist in her hand, waves her hand in the air and points-- she is obviously frustrated, but I can't tell what she is yelling or who she is gesturing to.

We see KM's brother standing with some other kids with blankets on their shoulders. The kids smile a bit and play around with each other, then suddenly they start looking sad and serious again. A woman starts yelling "Amber Alert...Amber Alert... No! Amber Alert!" The camera's not focused on the woman yelling so I don't know for sure who it is or who she is yelling at. (My impression is that they thought they found her but it was a false alarm and may have delayed the AA while police checked out the McDonald's tip. Then after that it seems family members were adamant that LE needed to send out the AA right away. MOO).

The reporter then explains that the people in the crowd had been yelling that KM was found at McDonald's but that turned out not to be true. She is still missing. As the reporter is saying this (About 10 minutes in) there is another commotion. The reporter zooms in on a crowd that includes many of KM's family members rushing towards the far side of the taped area and yelling at each other. Police officers break up the argument and separate people. We see KM's mom being pulled away from the crowd by another woman. About 15 minutes in we see KM's brother crying loudly as he is put in the back of a car to be taken from the scene. (Poor kid. It's hard to tell what is going on but it seems to be chaos and arguing within the family. So sad to see. MOO.)

About 32 minutes in a train is heard going by and blaring its horn loudly. (This surprised me. Will have to check a map to see where the train tracks are located).

The reporter comes back on the video around 50 minutes in and says this is officially an Amber Alert now. He repeats that this does not have to do with any custody issue and it is a kidnapping, which is scary. He says he has been on the scene since 10:15 PM to report on the case. LE put up the yellow crime scene tape about 45 minutes ago. He repeats the vehicle info. He says police are searching heavily in the complex and all over the city. He repeats for anyone to call 911 if they have seen KM and says it is almost midnight there. He signs off with about 12 minutes left of video that just shows KM's face and name for the rest of the time.


MOO.
 
RSBM

According to this document on Amber Alert in Alabama, the child has to be under 18 years old. No immediate treatment for a younger child.

http://al-ba.com/wp2/things-you-should-know-about-alabamas-amber-alert-plan/
Dang.. well I know sex traffickers will/have snatch a kid, get them in the car and someone will be in there ready to cut the hair, dye it, change clothes, disguise, etc. I hate that an Amber Alert can be so delayed when seconds count.. I guess you have to have rules and sometimes that sucks IMO :(
 
I have a question if you all would be kind enough to answer. I am relatively new here and am not sure how I am feeling. I have 3 totally different opinions. Do most of you have 1 opinion, 2. 3 more? Not just this case, but any case. With having 3 different opinions I am not sure which one to follow(LOL)

There are some cases where I go back and forth a lot between various options. An example would be the killer of Abby and Libby.

In this case specifically I’ve pretty much had the same thoughts and feel of the case from Day 1, which is something related to CP.

I would say it’s certainly normal to have varying opinions which are subject to change by the minute, moo.
 
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