Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #4

[RANCH]

Analysis: Alec Baldwin’s Gun Could Have Fired Without Him Pulling the Trigger, But Did It?

When the hammer is pulled back on a single-action revolver a series of sears on engaged which prevent it from moving back towards the chamber without the trigger being depressed. There are scenarios where the gun might be able to fire after the hammer is pulled back but without the trigger being pulled. However, they’re even more unlikely than a misfire with the hammer all the way down.

The first is that Baldwin managed to pull the hammer back far enough that releasing created a strong enough strike against the primer to set it off, but not far enough to engage the sear at quarter or half *advertiser censored*. That is, frankly, implausible.

The next possibility is a physical defect with the gun. The sears could have been so worn out they don’t catch the hammer as Baldwin manipulates it. But, that’s not likely either since it would be clear to anyone who handled the gun that it was broken.

What seems far more likely is Baldwin kept the trigger depressed as he pulled the hammer back. Then, when he released the hammer, the trigger kept the sears out of the way, and the gun fired.

Analysis: Alec Baldwin’s Gun Could Have Fired Without Him Pulling the Trigger, But Did It?

 

[GatorFL]

Can someone please explain to me what a transfer plate is and what it does? I did see on the Pietta site that the guns are available with one, but when I google "transfer plate" pistol, I can't find any good information on them.

Instead of a hammer with a built in firing pin, the hammer is flat. When the trigger is pulled, the hammer strikes the bar which then sets off the firing pin. This prevents misfires.

Here is a photo of an old school hammer which includes the firing pin:



Here is a video of a strike plate revolver:

 

[GatorFL]

Analysis: Alec Baldwin’s Gun Could Have Fired Without Him Pulling the Trigger, But Did It?

When the hammer is pulled back on a single-action revolver a series of sears on engaged which prevent it from moving back towards the chamber without the trigger being depressed. There are scenarios where the gun might be able to fire after the hammer is pulled back but without the trigger being pulled. However, they’re even more unlikely than a misfire with the hammer all the way down.

The first is that Baldwin managed to pull the hammer back far enough that releasing created a strong enough strike against the primer to set it off, but not far enough to engage the sear at quarter or half *advertiser censored*. That is, frankly, implausible.

The next possibility is a physical defect with the gun. The sears could have been so worn out they don’t catch the hammer as Baldwin manipulates it. But, that’s not likely either since it would be clear to anyone who handled the gun that it was broken.

What seems far more likely is Baldwin kept the trigger depressed as he pulled the hammer back. Then, when he released the hammer, the trigger kept the sears out of the way, and the gun fired.

Analysis: Alec Baldwin’s Gun Could Have Fired Without Him Pulling the Trigger, But Did It?

I said this a few days ago. His finger was on the trigger, so when he cocked the gun and released his thumb from the trigger, it fired, killing Halyna. Gross negligence.

 

[GatorFL]

What about the little boy in the movie? The storyline was supposed to involve an 11 year old shooting someone. Is he supposed to know the difference between real and dummy bullets?

All the industry standards I read (WB, SAG) say the actor must be trained. You can train an 11 year old how to fire a gun and how to tell the difference between a bullet, a dummy and a blank. I learned around age 7 and also taught my children around that same age.

https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf

 

[jjenny]

Can you train a 24 year old to tell the difference between a bullet and a dummy?

 

[DI_Isokawa]

Instead of a hammer with a built in firing pin, the hammer is flat. When the trigger is pulled, the hammer strikes the bar which then sets off the firing pin. This prevents misfires.

Here is a photo of an old school hammer which includes the firing pin:

View attachment 325329

Here is a video of a strike plate revolver:

Make sure you watch it on YouTube and read the comments.

 

[MaryG12]

He stated in the interview last night that he will never work in a movie with guns again. He is already involved in a production beginning in January, but was (and may still be) considering not performing in movies at all in the future.

If that is the case, he will probably retire.

MOO but it sounds like he is a few cards short of a full deck.

 

[Antimony]

Misfire: The gun does not fire when you pull the trigger.
Hang fire" The gun has a delay in firing after the trigger is pulled. It will always have a delay due to the fall time of the hammer and the chain detonation of the primer and propellant charge but that will be in milliseconds. A hang fire is like when the trigger is pulled and nothing happens, then you look down the barrel to see what the problem is. Usually one of the Three Stooges or Wile E. Coyote does this. In real life it is very dangerous.
Slam Fire: In an auto loading or multi-barrel weapon the charge of the fired round initiates all of the other cartridges to fire. A variation on this is with revolver type handguns, Firing a round causes all the other rounds to fire in the wheel. This usually happened with faulty ammo or with a cap and ball type old time revolver. As you can visualize 5 of the rounds had no barrel to fire into, so it usually just blew up. The gun was destroyed and the shooter faced serious injury or death.

 

[Dotta]

Wife of Alec speaks

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.amp...-modern-media-amid-torture-Rust-shooting.html

 

[Dotta]

Propaganda Machine of Alec

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.amp...view-bullsh-designed-make-feel-sorry-him.html

 

[MsMarple]

Wife of Alec speaks

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10273509/amp/Hilaria-Baldwin-lost-voice-giant-cyclone-modern-media-amid-torture-Rust-shooting.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16386613362033&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10273509/Hilaria-Baldwin-lost-voice-giant-cyclone-modern-media-amid-torture-Rust-shooting.html

GMAB lady, it's NOT about you.

 

[10ofRods]

Surely when he talks about his "gunslinging skills" he is talking about his ability as an actor to look convincing in a gunfighting scene? That he can convincingly portray a character who has the correct shooting stance, etc?. To me that doesn't translate as someone saying they are well-versed and competent in all aspects of gun lore, more that they know how to look like they can competently point and shoot a weapon. JMO

It can be heard many different ways. Sure, you can calculate in that actors are speaking only of their acting abilities (which is what, pretending to do something, right?)

I hope no one thinks being an actor and claiming to be "good with guns" is also claiming that the laws of physics no longer apply. Alec doesn't just mention "gunslinging" he says "good with guns." (even though he's never heard the word armorer before - which is quite interesting). The implication is that he's been safety trained multiple, multiple times over his 40 years in the business, therefore he's SAFE to work with. That's what the phrase would mean, to me, as a member of the general public - because an actor isn't just pretending, it's a method of creating a particular product (a movie or whatnot).

I don't think most people would believe an actor has to be "well versed in gun lore." Instead, they must be well versed in **gun safety," which is not lore but science.

 

[10ofRods]

AB is not an 11 year old boy. We don’t know the child’s acting experience or if a scene with him using a firearm was filmed. I wonder what industry standards are for children using firearms. I certainly hope an 11 year old would have basic gun safety explained to him. AB knows this. He admitted as such.

Is it possible for an 11 year old to be charged criminally if they point a gun, pull a trigger and a person ends up dead? Could others be held accountable as well?

AB is a grown adult. He doesn’t get to be looked at as an 11 year old. He shouldn’t be treated as an 11 year old. IMO



The way I see it, AB cares more that her death resulted in him being looked at negatively. I believe he is more concerned with that than he is with her death. The interview felt scripted to me and the tears seemed to be an act as well. I don’t buy the tears for one second. He got caught doing something stupid and is now blaming everyone else and stated himself he doesn’t feel guilt.

AB is a well connected, wealthy public figure. The fact that his history of repeated reckless and violent behavior haven’t made people ‘cancel’ him already is telling IMO. He expects to walk away from this and still be in the same position he was. It’s not only his celebrity status. There are plenty of celebrities who wouldn’t be treated the same way. He is AB and for whatever reason, well connected and essentially one of the elite. MOO, IMO and all that.

The. gun Alec used was not the only prop gun. Each gun had a "stand-in" for safety reasons. The gun that Alec shot had a rubber replica, as well as an actual
gun that had had its barrel stopped up, so that while it looks totally real, it can't fire anything (it's perfect for a child to use; they would have had the same for the other styles of guns they were using - it's standard).

A child using a real weapon is illegal in most cases (even if unloaded), including New Mexico. But airsoft replicas (very believable), rubber replicas. (ditto) and plugged/inoperable real weapons are used. They had those choices available. I wonder who decided not to use any of those others for rehearsal.

Maybe they should have waited until the armorer wasn't busy dealing with other props.

 

[10ofRods]

I think his blunt statement that he didn't feel guilty is jarring, imo. He could have said he felt guilty, because he was holding the weapon, but he knows it wasn't his fault, ultimately. That would have been easier to hear, imo.

My good friend has felt guilty for 20 years because her 4 month old baby died from SIDS. ....She has dealt with those intense feelings of guilt in therapy and she knows she didn't do anything wrong----but still, irrationally and emotionally, she feels guilt because her baby girl died in her crib a few hours before sunrise. How can a mom not feel those pangs of guilt?

Could have said, "I feel devastated," or "this is a tragedy," or "I feel terrible." Much easier to hear than what he said.

Oh, I feel so badly for your friend. It's such a worse case scenario, SIDS. I agree - how could anyone not feel some guilt? Feeling that feeling doesn't mean it's "our fault" or that there's criminal negligence. I have to think that AB was being honest - and he feels neither guilt nor responsibility, which if I were on a jury and had seen that interview, I'd have to struggle against.

Perhaps this is a PR attempt to taint the jury pool for a far-distant appeal? (Seems really unlikely, so it's likely just a huge gaffe on the part of AB, going rogue and disobeying both the Sheriff and his lawyers.)

 

[katydid23]

Do I have this right?
From the actual owner's manual/instruction manual for the gun used by Baldwin.

The Pietta 1873 does have the 4 position hammer with the "Safety Notch".

Page 22.

http://www.pietta.us/pdf/Manuale_Ret...ca_ITA_ENG.pdf

 

[KBlackRabbit]

5. What will happen to Alec Baldwin?

Legal experts say it's unlikely the "30 Rock" actor will face criminal charges, unless evidence suggests the actor behaved irresponsibly with the gun, despite knowing the risks. In the investigation so far, there is no evidence to support that.

The investigators have not said the gun is faulty. Baldwin almost certainly had his finger on the trigger.

His story about being told by “someone” decades ago to blindly trust the “prop guy” doesn’t wash, there are very specific and detailed rules on handling weapons on the set. Baldwin should know them, especially as a veteran actor in previous films where he used guns, and as the producer of this film.

Again, about trusting the “prop guy” without inspecting the gun, it wasn’t the armorer who handed him the gun, it was the assistant director. It’s not the AD’s job to be in charge of the weapons and had no business giving anyone a gun and declaring it cold. Alec blindly accepted a gun from someone he should have known wasn’t qualified to be in charge of weapons on set.

I think he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

 

[jjenny]

"An affidavit included with the warrant says Seth Kenney, the owner of PDQ, told investigators on Oct. 29 that the live round shot from Baldwin's prop gun may have been "reloaded ammunition" bearing the logo of Starline Brass, the company that manufactures the dummy rounds and blanks his business supplies to movie sets."

Alec Baldwin 'Rust' shooting: Investigators seek source of live ammo (usatoday.com)

 

[jjenny]

"Attorney Jeff Harris, who has worked on cases involving injuries and deaths on film and TV sets, said it would have been reasonable for Baldwin to believe that the gun was safe to use on set if he had been given assurances by crew members responsible for weapons. It would be unreasonable to expect an actor to check every round individually himself, Harris said."

Legal experts weigh Alec Baldwin's risky ABC News interview - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

 

[jjenny]

More description of all the sources of ammo for "Rust."
Multiple sources of ammo-including some dude named Billy Ray? Previous project would presumably be "the old way" since that's her only previous movie in which she was an armorer? And then the "armorer mentor."
"Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the armorer on the film, has previously said she has no idea where the live rounds came from. The prop master on the film, Sarah Zachry, has told investigators that the ammunition came from several sources, including Kenney, a man named Billy Ray and from a supply that Gutierrez Reed had left over from a previous project."
'Rust' Ammunition Supplier Says Live Rounds Didn't Come From Him - Variety

 

[jjenny]

I certainly am not going to assume that it's unlikely the gun was defective, given all we know. It would be easy enough to test if this gun goes off when its hammer is pulled back.

"Even if Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger to fire the gun, his description of what happened suggests at least three possible options. Either he didn’t pull the hammer back far enough for it to lock and stay in place, or some movement jostled the gun and caused the hammer to fall, or there was some mechanical failure in the gun. Those possibilities will be up to investigators to resolve."

How Could the Gun Fire If Alec Baldwin Didn’t Pull the Trigger? | Vanity Fair