eileenhawkeye
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Can LE put two people in separate jail cells--without arresting them? They would need a reason to hold them, right?
Alex Hunter didn't prosecute because he was scared of being embarrassed if he lost.
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questfortrue
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Agree with you, BAM, that this case probably had a snowball’s chance as a win for AH’s office. He never could have accomplished it; too much coziness with the RST. Not enough expertise at prosecution. And another thought is how AH considered the sexual aspect of the case. The issue of molestation/incest is one which most people find despicable and abhorrent and this had to be so potentially explosive that AH was probably sweating hard about taking this case to trial. (AH had to have some notions re: this topic having requested the expertise of Marilyn Van Derber Atler, the former Miss America who had been molested by her father,) All, moo.
In spite of the examples of seemingly airtight cases – OJ, Casey Antthony come to mind-- both OJ and Casey Anthony lost in the court of public opinion. In that realm, I would hate to see JR win people over via his recovered victim books and the current notion among the public about the R’s being exonerated by Touch DNA.
1) I wish the case had been prosecuted to give due to the many people - detectives, grand jury, others - who put their heart and soul into trying to solve the crime.
2) I wish it had been prosecuted because, I believe like many others, the best opportunity to prosecute was with PR alive and the evidence fresh. And time is not a friend to cold cases.
3) Finally, I wish it had been prosecuted to at least attempt justice for the brutal death of JBR. Know I’m not alone in wishing.
In spite of the examples of seemingly airtight cases – OJ, Casey Antthony come to mind-- both OJ and Casey Anthony lost in the court of public opinion. In that realm, I would hate to see JR win people over via his recovered victim books and the current notion among the public about the R’s being exonerated by Touch DNA.
1) I wish the case had been prosecuted to give due to the many people - detectives, grand jury, others - who put their heart and soul into trying to solve the crime.
2) I wish it had been prosecuted because, I believe like many others, the best opportunity to prosecute was with PR alive and the evidence fresh. And time is not a friend to cold cases.
3) Finally, I wish it had been prosecuted to at least attempt justice for the brutal death of JBR. Know I’m not alone in wishing.
Bayareamom
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Do you all understand that if the Ramseys had been taken to trial, they not only would have emerged victorious, but would have emerged as MARTYRS? Would you all have wanted to see THAT happen? OMG, I cannot imagine something so horrendous as this; would have made my heart sink.
Team Ramsey would have absolutely DEMOLISHED the Prosecution's side - just smeared them.
Here is an excerpt from Steve Thomas' book - pages 176 thru 177. Read it and weep:
"The Colorado Peace Officer's Handbook, written by our departmental attorney, Bob Keatley, says that "probable cause" for an arrest exists "When you have sufficient reliable information to believe that under the totality of the circumstances there is a fair probability that the suspect has committed . . . a crime." To make the decision, the officer relies upon, among other things, personal observations, past experience, a suspect's presence at the scene, information from other officers, attempts to avoid detection, and incriminating, contradictory, or evasive answers from the suspect.
We had all of that and a lot more.
If there was one certainty in this entire investigation, it was the nearly unanimous consensus within the law enforcement community that probable cause existed to arrest Patsy Ramsey. I believed that, as did every detective on the investigating squad and our boss Sergeant Tom Wickman, who one day suggested, "The probable cause is there. Maybe the five of us should just go make the arrest." Commander John Eller believed it, as did Police Chief Tom Koby and his successor, Mark Beckner, who personally told me so.
Chief Koby would also tell me later that District Attorney Alex Hunter thought "from day one that Patsy did it" and that probable cause existed.
There was no doubt at all that we had the elements of probable cause.
But it wasn't enough, because the DA's office-which would eventually admit that the Ramseys were "prime suspects" and that enough evidence existed to get a grand jury indictment-changed the rules. When Deputy DA Mary Keenan announced several years later that she was a candidate to succeed Alex Hunter, she mentioned that the history of plea bargaining by his office had eroded the courtroom skills of Hunter's prosecutors.
That was the catch. There was no prosecutor in Boulder who could take the Ramseys into court, fight off their defense team, and bring the pieces of the puzzle together for a jury. Years of plea bargaining had made them paper tigers. In one case, a woman bought a pistol the day after being separated from her husband, practiced at a firing range, then wrote a will and farewell letters to her children. When her husband came to remove his belongings from the house, she shot him in cold blood, then surrendered to a cop. Detective Kim Stewart and I interviewed the woman, a criminology professor, arrested for the first-degree murder of her husband. Compared with the Ramsey fiasco, this was easy, as she waived her Miranda rights and confessed the premeditated act to Detective Stewart and me. Only four hours after the shots were fired, we had the confession on tape. But Deputy DA Pete Hofstrom began negotiating with the public defender that day, and the killer, instead of facing a death penalty trial, quickly accepted a reduced charge and twenty years.
Now in the Ramsey case they told us there would be no arrest, because we couldn't yet prove the case "beyond a reasonable doubt." Therefore their interpretation of BARD became the new standard for the investigation. I felt that the DA's office was asking on the one hand for a slam-dunk certainty of conviction while on the other hand seemed to be doing everything possible to prevent us from getting it.
But was there any case they would take? They had an abysmal record in murder trials, had not taken one to court in years, and sure as hell didn't want this one. Their prayer was for a confession, so they could make a deal and NOT HAVE TO FACE A JURY."
Team Ramsey would have absolutely DEMOLISHED the Prosecution's side - just smeared them.
Here is an excerpt from Steve Thomas' book - pages 176 thru 177. Read it and weep:
"The Colorado Peace Officer's Handbook, written by our departmental attorney, Bob Keatley, says that "probable cause" for an arrest exists "When you have sufficient reliable information to believe that under the totality of the circumstances there is a fair probability that the suspect has committed . . . a crime." To make the decision, the officer relies upon, among other things, personal observations, past experience, a suspect's presence at the scene, information from other officers, attempts to avoid detection, and incriminating, contradictory, or evasive answers from the suspect.
We had all of that and a lot more.
If there was one certainty in this entire investigation, it was the nearly unanimous consensus within the law enforcement community that probable cause existed to arrest Patsy Ramsey. I believed that, as did every detective on the investigating squad and our boss Sergeant Tom Wickman, who one day suggested, "The probable cause is there. Maybe the five of us should just go make the arrest." Commander John Eller believed it, as did Police Chief Tom Koby and his successor, Mark Beckner, who personally told me so.
Chief Koby would also tell me later that District Attorney Alex Hunter thought "from day one that Patsy did it" and that probable cause existed.
There was no doubt at all that we had the elements of probable cause.
But it wasn't enough, because the DA's office-which would eventually admit that the Ramseys were "prime suspects" and that enough evidence existed to get a grand jury indictment-changed the rules. When Deputy DA Mary Keenan announced several years later that she was a candidate to succeed Alex Hunter, she mentioned that the history of plea bargaining by his office had eroded the courtroom skills of Hunter's prosecutors.
That was the catch. There was no prosecutor in Boulder who could take the Ramseys into court, fight off their defense team, and bring the pieces of the puzzle together for a jury. Years of plea bargaining had made them paper tigers. In one case, a woman bought a pistol the day after being separated from her husband, practiced at a firing range, then wrote a will and farewell letters to her children. When her husband came to remove his belongings from the house, she shot him in cold blood, then surrendered to a cop. Detective Kim Stewart and I interviewed the woman, a criminology professor, arrested for the first-degree murder of her husband. Compared with the Ramsey fiasco, this was easy, as she waived her Miranda rights and confessed the premeditated act to Detective Stewart and me. Only four hours after the shots were fired, we had the confession on tape. But Deputy DA Pete Hofstrom began negotiating with the public defender that day, and the killer, instead of facing a death penalty trial, quickly accepted a reduced charge and twenty years.
Now in the Ramsey case they told us there would be no arrest, because we couldn't yet prove the case "beyond a reasonable doubt." Therefore their interpretation of BARD became the new standard for the investigation. I felt that the DA's office was asking on the one hand for a slam-dunk certainty of conviction while on the other hand seemed to be doing everything possible to prevent us from getting it.
But was there any case they would take? They had an abysmal record in murder trials, had not taken one to court in years, and sure as hell didn't want this one. Their prayer was for a confession, so they could make a deal and NOT HAVE TO FACE A JURY."
Bayareamom
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BOESP,
I understand how the game is played and DO understand the nuances involved, including the politics, egos and how all of that gets played out. It is abundantly apparent to me, in reading all of your various posts, that as with most who do not truly understand how our judicial system works, that you do not understand the intricacies involved as to why this case never made it into a courtroom.
I can't say as though I blame you, but I DO know some things about the legal system and how it works, given my over 20 some years in the field.
Alex Hunter's crew did not have a chance in hell of either taking this case to trial OR winning it. THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT. You can start with Officer French and work your way down from there.
That's just the way it is. It is always possible that some new shred of evidence could worm its way through into the system, thereby giving this case some new life. The probability of that, however, is next to nil.
I understand how the game is played and DO understand the nuances involved, including the politics, egos and how all of that gets played out. It is abundantly apparent to me, in reading all of your various posts, that as with most who do not truly understand how our judicial system works, that you do not understand the intricacies involved as to why this case never made it into a courtroom.
I can't say as though I blame you, but I DO know some things about the legal system and how it works, given my over 20 some years in the field.
Alex Hunter's crew did not have a chance in hell of either taking this case to trial OR winning it. THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT. You can start with Officer French and work your way down from there.
That's just the way it is. It is always possible that some new shred of evidence could worm its way through into the system, thereby giving this case some new life. The probability of that, however, is next to nil.
Well, you've been a busy bee if you've read all my posts. I'm quite complimented. I've freely admitted I'm not a lawyer but that doesn't mean I don't understand intimidation tactics when I see them. :seeya:
eileenhawkeye
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Whoa...how would the R's have become martyrs if they acquitted? OJ and Casey definitely did not. What would be different with the R's?
Bayareamom
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Martyrs, Eileen, because the general public's perception, prior to a court trial, was that they WERE/ARE GUILTY. Once the defense team had their turn at the bat, it would have been all over. They would have been able to demolish the prosecution's evidence; it would have been a bloodbath. And Hunter knew it would be.
By the end of that trial, the prosecution's case would have been SO dismantled, perhaps even the most die-hard of the anti-Ramsey camp would have been convinced that they didn't have anything to do with this crime (beyond the perimeters of reasonable doubt).
I would imagine Hunter was visualizing the same, i.e., that the Ramseys, after a victory in court, would have forever more been perceived as the vilely persecuted 'innocent victims' of a crime gone awry right inside their own home, by a Boulder police department hellbent on finding them guilty.
Hunter had absolutely no chance whatsoever with this horrific case. He had two 'suspects' who by all accounts, were more intelligent than MOST of the people involved with this case. AND HE KNEW IT. Hunter was, as I've stated, Mr. Plea Bargain himself; he had little to NO courtroom experience, prior to JonBenet's death. Hunter had a police force trained in the so-called New Age format; cozy up to the residents - the mostly wealthy and educated residents - and plea out just about anyone who committed a crime, be it death, drug/narcotics issues, rape, etc. The mentality of the Boulder police department fit right in with Hunter's own philosophies. The police department simply wasn't trained to deal with this monster of a case, when it happened.
Thomas describes this so very well in his book. Anyone that does not understand why this case didn't see the inside of a courthouse, should read his book.
By the end of that trial, the prosecution's case would have been SO dismantled, perhaps even the most die-hard of the anti-Ramsey camp would have been convinced that they didn't have anything to do with this crime (beyond the perimeters of reasonable doubt).
I would imagine Hunter was visualizing the same, i.e., that the Ramseys, after a victory in court, would have forever more been perceived as the vilely persecuted 'innocent victims' of a crime gone awry right inside their own home, by a Boulder police department hellbent on finding them guilty.
Hunter had absolutely no chance whatsoever with this horrific case. He had two 'suspects' who by all accounts, were more intelligent than MOST of the people involved with this case. AND HE KNEW IT. Hunter was, as I've stated, Mr. Plea Bargain himself; he had little to NO courtroom experience, prior to JonBenet's death. Hunter had a police force trained in the so-called New Age format; cozy up to the residents - the mostly wealthy and educated residents - and plea out just about anyone who committed a crime, be it death, drug/narcotics issues, rape, etc. The mentality of the Boulder police department fit right in with Hunter's own philosophies. The police department simply wasn't trained to deal with this monster of a case, when it happened.
Thomas describes this so very well in his book. Anyone that does not understand why this case didn't see the inside of a courthouse, should read his book.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Hello Bayareamom, welcome to Websleuths! I'm thinking more that a reputable DA's office would have taken their chances and gone to trial with what they had.
Chris_Texas
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I don't think anyone (outside those of us posting in places like this) has any real interest in this case at this point. The police screwed it up spectacularly, the medical examiner seemingly also did a hilariously incomplete job, and the DAs office had no interest in prosecuting the case.
And today it would require money. Money to go back through the physical evidence, find what's left, have it all retested in the hope that something new comes up. And then even if it does they have to hope that they maintained a solid chain of custody for all these years, and that the science is solid enough that the defense cannot shred it.
The question has never really been whether or not an intruder did it -- that's been pretty laughable from the start (sorry IDI people, it's silly), the question is which Ramsey did it. Even here we only have theories and guesses. And with Patsy dead, John's lawyers can always just point at her.
Even so, I would like to see this go to trial. I would like to see the evidence they have, and I would like to see Mr Ramsey forced to defend himself. Win or lose, I say go for it. Otherwise there is no hope of justice.
And today it would require money. Money to go back through the physical evidence, find what's left, have it all retested in the hope that something new comes up. And then even if it does they have to hope that they maintained a solid chain of custody for all these years, and that the science is solid enough that the defense cannot shred it.
The question has never really been whether or not an intruder did it -- that's been pretty laughable from the start (sorry IDI people, it's silly), the question is which Ramsey did it. Even here we only have theories and guesses. And with Patsy dead, John's lawyers can always just point at her.
Even so, I would like to see this go to trial. I would like to see the evidence they have, and I would like to see Mr Ramsey forced to defend himself. Win or lose, I say go for it. Otherwise there is no hope of justice.
midwest mama
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Yep, and add NK and Hill to the picture, and it only took a couple of weeks for him to clear out his desk and make a clean exit.
You nailed that one right on, BAM.
Sadly, you're probably right again. Hal Haddon and his merry band of a-----es had no problems breaking the truth if it would help a paying client. (Emphasis on paying.)
Do you all remember that Linda Arndt cozied up to the Ramseys? Do you remember when she received FLOWERS from Team Ramsey and that she showed them to certain officers in her department at the time? Do you understand how offensive this was to the spirit of this little girl and how politics and ego played right into the hands of the Ramsey Team?
You may have a point. If Patsy did kill JB, and I'm convinced she did, she had to live with that for the rest of her life. What possible punishment could the law have imposed on her that would be worse than that? Moreover, she was not a threat to the community in need of incarceration.
On a darker note (may God forgive me), trials are not the only way to administer justice.
Ten years, to be precise!
Appalling is not the word for it!
Thomas wasn't the first. Back in 1982, Kirk Long blasted AH in a letter
BAM, I speak my mind. For that, I do not apologize.
Actually, they WOULD be arrested. As for a reason, to quote ST, probable cause was never an issue in this case. It existed from the word "Go."
http://www.dailycamera.com/125th-da...nstilling-breath-progress-into-boulder-county
Daily Camera a 125, still instilling 'the breath of progress into Boulder County'
03/12/2016
AH earns mention in the compilation as
the DA who declines to indict.
"In 1983, CU student Sid Wells, boyfriend of actor Robert Redford's daughter, was found shot to death in his condo. Police theorized that the crime was related to cocaine and arrested Wells' roommate, Thayne Smika. DA Alex Hunter and a grand jury later declined to indict Smika, who disappeared after his release. On the strength of new evidence, current DA Stan Garnett issued a warrant for Smika's arrest in 2010."
"But the biggest story of the decade — perhaps the century — was the murder of 6-year-old former child-beauty pageant participant JonBenet Ramsey on Dec. 26, 1996. Police missteps in the initial investigation of what the girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, reported as a kidnapping ignited a story that would result in books, movies, false confessions, conspiracy theories, a grand jury and the destruction of political and civil-service careers. The Camera prepared three versions of an extra edition for the grand jury's report. Not long after DA Alex Hunter announced that there would be no indictment, TV reporters covering the story at the justice center were holding up Cameras to their cameras."
Daily Camera a 125, still instilling 'the breath of progress into Boulder County'
03/12/2016
AH earns mention in the compilation as
the DA who declines to indict.
"In 1983, CU student Sid Wells, boyfriend of actor Robert Redford's daughter, was found shot to death in his condo. Police theorized that the crime was related to cocaine and arrested Wells' roommate, Thayne Smika. DA Alex Hunter and a grand jury later declined to indict Smika, who disappeared after his release. On the strength of new evidence, current DA Stan Garnett issued a warrant for Smika's arrest in 2010."
"But the biggest story of the decade — perhaps the century — was the murder of 6-year-old former child-beauty pageant participant JonBenet Ramsey on Dec. 26, 1996. Police missteps in the initial investigation of what the girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, reported as a kidnapping ignited a story that would result in books, movies, false confessions, conspiracy theories, a grand jury and the destruction of political and civil-service careers. The Camera prepared three versions of an extra edition for the grand jury's report. Not long after DA Alex Hunter announced that there would be no indictment, TV reporters covering the story at the justice center were holding up Cameras to their cameras."
Foreign Faction
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Absolutely! Hunter was scared that he would be embarrassed just as Gil Garcetti and the OJ prosecutors were with an even more air-tight case than this! He was terrified! Especially when he figured that BR was the cause of all this mess and the Ramseys were just covering it all up, not necessarily guilty of murder.
Foreign Faction
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After reading the posts here, I learned even a few more things that reinforce my opinion of Burke as the one who administered the blow to the head, which would have been fatal if not for the strangulation. Is it based on an overload of indisputable evidence? No. Is it based though in a thorough taking-in of things at face value, using logic, my knowledge of human psychology/aberrant behavior, particularly youth (I'm a psychologist and university professor), and my "gut instinct" coupled with a firm belief in Occam's Razor theory? Yes. It all leads to Burke in some manner and/or form.
I'm not one that admits to hearing any young voice on the 911 call, BTW, so not sure what to make of that.
What bothers me the most about this case, and my belief BDI, is why JR and PR would go through this whole ridiculous charade for an obviously troubled child, who NEEDED professional help. To my logical mind, there are two possible answers to this: either they loved their child so much that they would risk EVERYTHING to cover for him (believable, but knowing both Ramsey's psyches, a little bit of a stretch), OR that there were other secrets that they would be hiding and covering up for in the course of covering up and shielding Burke (more likely).
I have been a Columbine researcher for the last several years, and only got interested in this case recently, so I wasn't too immersed in the JBR case culture to get caught up in the various theories, red herrings, dialogue, petty arguments, ad nauseum. The BDI theory in my opinion is the only one that explains a lot of the supporting evidence AS WELL AS some of the legal and LE actions, ramifications, and impotence/ineffectiveness that has persisted over the past two decades.
As a JBR outsider on this forum and others, I guess that's all I have to say. I'll leave it to more seasoned writers/researchers to hash it all out. If I had the time and inclination, and wasn't afraid of litigation, I would probably be interested in writing a book about this theory at length using a wealth of academic research on children's violence. I wish you all the best in your search for the truth.
I'm not one that admits to hearing any young voice on the 911 call, BTW, so not sure what to make of that.
What bothers me the most about this case, and my belief BDI, is why JR and PR would go through this whole ridiculous charade for an obviously troubled child, who NEEDED professional help. To my logical mind, there are two possible answers to this: either they loved their child so much that they would risk EVERYTHING to cover for him (believable, but knowing both Ramsey's psyches, a little bit of a stretch), OR that there were other secrets that they would be hiding and covering up for in the course of covering up and shielding Burke (more likely).
I have been a Columbine researcher for the last several years, and only got interested in this case recently, so I wasn't too immersed in the JBR case culture to get caught up in the various theories, red herrings, dialogue, petty arguments, ad nauseum. The BDI theory in my opinion is the only one that explains a lot of the supporting evidence AS WELL AS some of the legal and LE actions, ramifications, and impotence/ineffectiveness that has persisted over the past two decades.
As a JBR outsider on this forum and others, I guess that's all I have to say. I'll leave it to more seasoned writers/researchers to hash it all out. If I had the time and inclination, and wasn't afraid of litigation, I would probably be interested in writing a book about this theory at length using a wealth of academic research on children's violence. I wish you all the best in your search for the truth.
singularity
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Why do you keep posting that exact same post in every thread?
Foreign Faction
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Because I believe it with every fiber of my being. :thinking:
Why didn't you "thank" it? lol:nono: