All About Chloroform#2

[fortytwo]

I just don't see the use of chloroform in this case. I think a more likely method would be a cough/cold rx.

Agree

 

[BondJamesBond]

I just don't see the use of chloroform in this case. I think a more likely method would be a cough/cold rx.

Agree...(for at least another 4 mins ).

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I just don't see the use of chloroform in this case. I think a more likely method would be a cough/cold rx.

absolutely agree

 

[BondJamesBond]

...@ 11mins after the hour...and I STILL agree. Wonders never cease

Seriously, though...thanks to everyone for all the help working through this aspect. I really struggled through it, yet, everyone has been very patient and very helpful. Big TY! :blowkiss:

 

[Bev]

I keep going back and forth too, but for many reasons, I am convinced there was no chloroform used...at this time...

 

[Texas Mist]

I don't think KC went thru the trouble to whip up a batch of chloroform....jeez -- that's work!! She's just not that industrious with her criminal MO. (How hard is it to use someone else's checks!??) I think the chloroform google search was related to seeing RM's .jpg & is just a one-off coincidence.

I'm hoping the SA doesn't go down the path of KC using chloroform, but using some other illicit/OTC/prescription meds, and that science explains the chloroform detected in the trunk.

Seems like a good strategy to use (IMO) due to the 'leaked memo' at the DP hearing suggesting 'if she did it, it was an accidental overdose' (my paraphrase).

It will be interesting to see the 'experts' duking it out in court, yes?

If *I* were a juror & expert testimony essentially' zeroed out' the explanation for chloroform, there's still plenty of evidence to consider.

And it all may still come down to the glaringly obvious -- no job, no nanny, no missing child report for X days, no assistance in the investigation.

She's going down. <fingers crossed>

 

[Bev]

This is going to be a real battle of the experts - for one thing the LIBS is fairly new in forensics - it's been used in probably 4 or 5 cases at the most in the last five years, so the defense will probably try to have the results thrown out or muck the science so badly that the jury will be confused - the reason these results are so important is that it gives a fairly specific time of death that provides a window of opportunity that fits the timeline, between one and four on Mon. Nothing else will work.

 

[BondJamesBond]

... between one and four on Mon. Nothing else will work.

*snipped*

OK, Bev. Don't tease me like that! I'd love to hear your theory over on the Theory thread, esp. w.r.t. snipped above.

 

[Bev]

I'd like to start a new thread on the importance of forensics, the new techniques, the science and the application of the science.

 

[Indigo]

Going back over the documents and thought these were interesting points:

In preliminary analysis--Chloroform was the primary compound observed in the air sample from the trunk:

A preliminary analysis was performed by collecting a small (0.8 ml) sample of air from the can and injecting the air into a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer. Several compounds were observed in this sample (primarily chloroform); however, it was deemed necessary to concentrate the sample in order improve the sensitivity for the lower abundance compounds.

This large concentration of chloroform is of particular interest. It is set apart from the "sulfur containing compounds" which are "particularly characteristic" of decomposition.

Of particular interest is the large concentration of chloroform (not a common ingredient in commercial products) and the presence of sulfur containing compounds in the Florida trunk carpet sample which are particularly characteristic of decompositional events.

Chloroform is primarily detected in anaerobic decompositions.

Chloroform appears very early in human decomposition (<1Q0 ADDs)
primarily detected in deprived oxygen (anaerobic) decompositions.


The concentration of chloroform found in the trunk was unusually large-- far greater than typically seen in ( obviously anaerobic) human decomposition.

Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition.


http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

 

[Bev]

Exactly, Indigo, this was misinterpreted by the "experts" which gives us an indication of how the court case might go...

 

[Indigo]

Exactly, Indigo, this was misinterpreted by the "experts" which gives us an indication of how the court case might go...

Bev, are you saying that the case documents misrepresent the data, or that it has since been misinterpreted by experts? TIA.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Going back over the documents and thought these were interesting points

In preliminary analysis--Chloroform was the primary compound observed in the air sample from the trunk:

A preliminary analysis was performed by collecting a small (0.8 ml) sample of air from the can and injecting the air into a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer. Several compounds were observed in this sample (primarily chloroform); however, it was deemed necessary to concentrate the sample in order improve the sensitivity for the lower abundance compounds.

This large concentration of chloroform is of particular interest. It is set apart from the "sulfur containing compounds" which are "particularly characteristic" of decomposition.

Of particular interest is the large concentration of chloroform (not a common ingredient in commercial products) and the presence of sulfur containing compounds in the Florida trunk carpet sample which are particularly characteristic of decompositional events.

Chloroform is primarily detected in anaerobic decompositions.

Chloroform appears very early in human decomposition (<1Q0 ADDs)
primarily detected in deprived oxygen (anaerobic) decompositions.


The concentration of chloroform found in the trunk was unusually large-- far greater than typically seen in ( obviously anaerobic) human decomposition.

Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition.


http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

Also, the level of chloroform found was greater than an almost 3 y/o corpse could produce by itself. This leads me to believe that something else added to the level of chloroform found. I presented a theory a few posts back that could very well explain this. I started asking around today (my friends & their parents) how many people actually add dishwasher detergent to their steam cleaner / shampooer and the results are amazing. I asked 9 people and 7 of them do the same thing as I do! There's lots of theories out there, and several of them are plausible. I believe in the easiest theory and this one very well could explain it. The temperature in the trunk, fluctuating or not, could make the concentration level of chloroform found greater...especially since a decomposing corpse was found to have been in there. Just giving you something to think about, that is, if in fact CA really did clean the trunk / car with her beloved Bissell! Thanks for reading

 

[Bev]

I believe it's been misunderstood by the media experts. They didn't read it correctly. It is not correct that the amount of chloroform is more than a three year old body can produce because there is no data base on three year old bodies undergoing a DE. It is "consistent with" a decompositional event in anaerobic conditions.

 

[ibyoungr]

*snip*

Terrific article, Texas Mist. Thanks for sharing! :blowkiss:
That the compounds from later-stage decomp were not found should certainly put many suspicious of G and/or C discovering the body 7/15 and assisting w/ disposal to rest. Amazing science!

OK..lemme see the big hand is on the 12...the little hand is on the 10...that means...:waitasec: hmmmm, oh...OK its time for me to lean towards Casey using Rx o.d. vs. chloroform. When the big hand reaches the 6 I'll hafta change my mind again :bang:

This article + Bev's, et.al.'s recent posts attributing the elevated chloroform to anaerobic decomp conditions is (for the next 30mins at least) causing me to think Dr. Flowers may not be accounting for the enclosed environment in his assessment. Before I read this article I was ready to debate the anaerobic conditions thinking the ADD indicated the body leaked decomp at a least (if not until) the 2.6-3-day mark...hence...the body wasn't in a bag (i.e. anaerobic environment). This article suggested that even the unopened trunk would be sufficient to consistitute an anaerobic environment. Even if it had been opened on 6/17, 6/18 and 6/19 or 6/20...I can buy that. It's a relatively small space...and the amount of decomposing body offgas relative to that volume...ok...I'm easy...

Whew...that was close...took me 15mins to type...gotta another 15mins until I gotta change my mind

Dr Flowers report also spoke of vapor.. However, I just read the forensics again and they said they found chloroform residue.
Vapors ...residue.. I am

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Key word: residue ... which again leads me to believe something else helped to elevate the level of chloroform found. If it were only from the body decomp, it would be emitted as gaseous (albeit trapped in the trunk until opened and aired thoroughly) and not leave a "residue". A cleaning detergent could add weight to chloroform's compounds / chemical properties and therefore leave a residue. Just a thought

 

[Indigo]

I believe it's been misunderstood by the media experts. They didn't read it correctly. It is not correct that the amount of chloroform is more than a three year old body can produce because there is no data base on three year old bodies undergoing a DE. It is "consistent with" a decompositional event in anaerobic conditions.

Below is the conclusion from the report without my commentary. I underlined the portions in question. Five major compounds are mentioned as being indicative of human decompositon. One of those is chloroform--pointing to an anaerobic event. The "large concentration of chloroform" is addressed as an "additonal component," along with gasoline constituents. (Help! I am no expert...that's for sure)



Conclusions

The correlation between all the techniques, the comparison to what is known about the decomposition of human and animal remains, indicationsof early decomposition products and the presence of the five key major compounds associated with human decomposition (primarily the sulfur containing compounds) indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin. Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition. These results still do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Arpad Vass. Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Marc Wise. Ph.D.
Analytical chemist
Madhavi Martin. Ph.D.
Physicist



http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

 

[DotsEyes]

Adding to the mix - "neck-breaking". My online querry came up with music bands described as neck-breaking, AND then there is a guy on here somewhere in one of KC's photos with the words on his shirt, AND it seems that "Breaking Necks" is some sort of truck club.

While researching chloroform and how to make it, I was amazed at how simple it really is to make. One recipe says:

Get a pitcher (most articles say GLASS only)
Put in some pool shock (A pool)
Pour acetone in (cement cleaner)
cool with ice to 135-140 degrees

the mixture will result in three seperate layers of liquid

acetone will rise to the top,lighter than water and not water soluable
water will be in the middle
chloroform, not soluable in water,heavier than water, will be on the bottom

use a seperator

Sweet pungent odor, colorless, tasteless.

Also -

chlorine + acetone or ETHANOL or and many other products will produce chloroform

From what I can find, chloroform was used in cosmetics, lotions, cleaners, etc. before 2005, when it's use came into question and was banned. I also found an article from England where a tattoo artist was fined for using chloroform as an anesthetic on his customers (old article). Then we have KC's tatto guy saying he uses chloroform to clean his instruments and such.

Also chloroform seems to be one of the drugs of choice for "sniffers" - people who sniff gasoline, etc. for a high. (O/T but gasoline sniffing has become a major problem with First Nation People in Canada - how horrible is that?)

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Below is the conclusion from the report without my commentary. I underlined the portions in question. Five major compounds are mentioned as being indicative of human decompositon. One of those is chloroform--pointing to an anaerobic event. The "large concentration of chloroform" is addressed as an "additonal component," along with gasoline constituents. (Help! I am no expert...that's for sure)



Conclusions

The correlation between all the techniques, the comparison to what is known about the decomposition of human and animal remains, indicationsof early decomposition products and the presence of the five key major compounds associated with human decomposition (primarily the sulfur containing compounds) indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin. Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition. These results still do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Arpad Vass. Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Marc Wise. Ph.D.
Analytical chemist
Madhavi Martin. Ph.D.
Physicist



http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

Wow, Indigo! Thank you very much for that info. Now please take into consideration that maybe CA did in fact steam clean or shampoo that liner and let me know what you think. Maybe she didn't even use a steamer & just did it by hand, but after seeing how anal she can be in protecting her infamous daughter, I honestly wouldn't put it past her. Maybe it has something to do with GA going off the deep end ... b/c he knows he contributed in aiding CA's protection of their daughter. He is an ex sheriff's deputy that definitely knows the smell of human decomp. Now, you tell me how in the name of GOD he could drive that vehicle home knowing what it smelled like. No way could he stomach doing that, even with all the windows down, unless it became psychosomatic that all he could think of was KC being involved in something deep and she needed protection from the authorities (ie: maybe he thought there had been a dead body in the trunk and KC was involved somehow - be it her or Caylee). At which point his mind would have taken over and he could have blocked out the smell in order to take care of what was the most important - finding his daughter & granddaughter. Maybe CA puts 2 & 2 together knowing it can't be KC b/c she's spoken to her via texts or phone convo's, so they go into protection mode right away. I'm still not sure how I feel as far as how deep GA is involved in a cover up but I feel that CA started right away. I can picture her with that Bissell! I can also picture GA detailing the car. If I remember right, forensics didn't show alot of hairs found, and minimal fingerprints on the inside of the trunk. Well, if KC was such a pig that she left used velveeta wrappers in her car, as well as napkins, gum wrappers, empty Crystal Light with one including brown liquid (which leads me to believe it was Crystal Light Tea) - then please tell me how there were only 4 or 5 hairs and NO fingerprints found in the interior of the trunk? Although there were 4 folded up dryer sheets (not sure how many of those were in the trunk as compared to the inside of the car). Just a few things to think about. :blowkiss:

 

[californiared]

I think Casey had to have stolen the chloroform from somewhere. Not only do I not think she is smart enough to make it, but I think LE would have found the tools used and/or ingredients. Not to mention these ingredients are very specific and considering Casey now has the most recognizable face in Orlando I think someone working would have remembered ringing her up. I mean it's not everday a little petite girl is at a hardware store purchasing sodium hypochlorite and acetone lol. And didn't she always use her credit card? I'm sure LE has checked out her record of purchases. Any thoughts where she could have stolen chloroform from?