All About Chloroform#2

[BondJamesBond]

Bringing the following over from the Q&A thread for further discussion...

Now here's my question/what I'd like to know more about:
It would be very useful to know how much chloroform is typically released from a decomposing body, if there was any residue/evidence of cleaning compounds/household products in the trunk of the car (if chloroform was accidentally made when the car was cleaned) or which products the A's kept in their home that could be combined to make chloroform (on purpose to use as a sleep aid).
If we knew this info, we might be able to figure out more about Caylee's death.

*snipped*

 

[Nore]

WOW ! I missed that part of the article !!!!! I just wonder if they have already received the results and the defense knows there was chloroform...thus the media blitz we saw recently ? It seems to me that Jose and friends would be screaming from the roof tops about this latest document dump and how the evidence shows Casey is "innocent", if there was nothing else...

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iF ONLY i COULD REMEMBER!!!!
I know I remember reading the amount of chloroform was too large to have come from decomp alone. This was stated on the body farm somewhere. It was pertaining to the car, but I would imagine if it were in the hair it could leave a trail. There was hair stuck on the tape.If only I werent so old and had a better memory. Back to the farm!!

 

[BondJamesBond]

It very clearly says in the report; "Residues of chloroform were identified within the specimens...Residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens...NO ADDITIONAL CHEMICALS e.g. acetone or alcohol) were identified within the the examined specimens." [emphasis mine]

The report also says; "chloroform appears very early in human decomposition primarily ]detected in DEPRIVED OXYGEN (anaerobic) decomposition." [emphasis mine]

Nowhere in that report does it say that any chloroform was detected OTHER than that found in human decomposition and that level of chloroform is consistent with anaerobic conditions.

So….what this is telling us is that the absence of “additional chemicals” indicates the source of the chloroform was neither homemade nor the accidental result of an attempt to clean the trunk. Rather…it was solely the result of human decomposition.

I'm also posting a link to the search results for all posts on this thread by Bev here .

IMHO, Bev handled the topic about as authoritatively and objectively as possible. The search results give you 3 pages worth of posts to read...all well-worth reading if you are interested in this topic.

Regarding DogMom&#8217;s question about the level or concentration in the trunk&#8230;to my knowledge we haven&#8217;t been given this information. However, since George &#8216;put his nose right down on it [the stain]&#8221; and didn&#8217;t report any physiological effects&#8230;we can reasonably conclude he wasn&#8217;t rendered unconscious&#8230;hence, the level must&#8217;ve been <10,000ppm. And as was observed by Turbothink (IIRC) the K9 dogs weren&#8217;t notably harmed by their inspection of the trunk either.

 

[BondJamesBond]

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iF ONLY i COULD REMEMBER!!!!
I know I remember reading the amount of chloroform was too large to have come from decomp alone. This was stated on the body farm somewhere. It was pertaining to the car, but I would imagine if it were in the hair it could leave a trail. There was hair stuck on the tape.If only I werent so old and had a better memory. Back to the farm!!

The nice thing about WS is that you don't have to remember everything

I expect you're recalling Dr. Flowers comments, Nore. If you take a look @ the search results (via link) I posted above, Bev covered that too. HTH.

 

[Mystic]

Sorry for not checking back sooner, I was wondering how the duct tape would fit into ibyounger's theory of a dead Caylee being put in the trunk. IMO, the duct tape was used on an alive, but maybe drugged Caylee, I can't see her using the duct tape if Caylee was already deceased.

I thought it was written or said that the duct tape could have been used to make it appear like an abduction. I can't recall if it was on the news channels or in this forum?

 

[SoSueMe]

OMG, I was reading some of the reports about the chloroform levels in the trunk and the mixtures of chemicals, etc., and I must say, I found myself completely confused and lost.

If I were a juror, I'd want to hear from the experts for both sides and have them just cut to the chase. I don't want to be confused by all the scientific ratios of pig vs. human vs. cleaning supplies. I'm not sure I would need to know how they got there, just get there. Does anyone else feel the same way? I think often times all the forensic science confuses jurors.

 

[BondJamesBond]

OMG, I was reading some of the reports about the chloroform levels in the trunk and the mixtures of chemicals, etc., and I must say, I found myself completely confused and lost.

If I were a juror, I'd want to hear from the experts for both sides and have them just cut to the chase. I don't want to be confused by all the scientific ratios of pig vs. human vs. cleaning supplies. I'm not sure I would need to know how they got there, just get there. Does anyone else feel the same way? I think often times all the forensic science confuses jurors.

IKWYM, SoSue. Unfortunately, it will always be in the interest of one of the parties to confuse the jurors. attempting to create doubt - unfortunately.

 

[RR0004]

So&#8230;.what this is telling us is that the absence of &#8220;additional chemicals&#8221; indicates the source of the chloroform was neither homemade nor the accidental result of an attempt to clean the trunk. Rather&#8230;it was solely the result of human decomposition.

I'm also posting a link to the search results for all posts on this thread by Bev here .

IMHO, Bev handled the topic about as authoritatively and objectively as possible. The search results give you 3 pages worth of posts to read...all well-worth reading if you are interested in this topic.

Regarding DogMom&#8217;s question about the level or concentration in the trunk&#8230;to my knowledge we haven&#8217;t been given this information. However, since George &#8216;put his nose right down on it [the stain]&#8221; and didn&#8217;t report any physiological effects&#8230;we can reasonably conclude he wasn&#8217;t rendered unconscious&#8230;hence, the level must&#8217;ve been <10,000ppm. And as was observed by Turbothink (IIRC) the K9 dogs weren&#8217;t notably harmed by their inspection of the trunk either.

Thanks, once again. I think folks still have in their minds the NG report (as well as other media outlets) that led many to believe early on that levels were higher than what would be expected with normal decomp. It's a shame the talking heads never go back to clear things up.

 

[RR0004]

I thought it was written or said that the duct tape could have been used to make it appear like an abduction. I can't recall if it was on the news channels or in this forum?

Oh...there have been numerous suggestions of what it was used for...I just can't let my mind go there...too sad.

 

[whiskeygurl]

Nancy Grace show tonight said there was evidence of Chloroform on the liners from the trunk in the car. The Autopsy report was released today. But what it did not say is if there was chloroform on the pink shirt, shorts, winnie the pooh blanket, duct tape, paper towel, and the laundry bag.

We already know there was searches of Chloroform found on the computer. But what if Cindy or George used that to clean up the crime. Cindy did wash the clothes that were in the car. George would have known exactly what to use for clean up.

I am beginning to come to the theory that Caylee died in her sleep. I think the duct tape was placed over her mouth & nose after she died to prevent leakage of decomposition. Why I think she was murdered in her sleep is because of the matting of her hair. Common sense here tells you no one wakes up with the perfect hair. That poor child was murdered in her sleep.

Caylee was so badly decomposed that I am sure they can't be 100% certain that Caylee might have actually been drugged. But I am telling ya'll that poor little girl was asleep. Another reason why I think that too other then the matting of the hair, also is the winnie the pooh blanket. My own 3 year old grandson sleeps with his favorite cars blanket.

I think George or Cindy used Chloroform to clean the trunk liner of that car after they had picked it up from the tow yard.

 

[CentralFLMama]

I respectfully disagree about the hair. Any hair that is outside in the mud and water for 6 months is going to be matted.
However, I agree about the Anthony's using chloroform to clean the car. I think George would have known to do it.

 

[Patty G]

I respectfully disagree about the hair. Any hair that is outside in the mud and water for 6 months is going to be matted.
However, I agree about the Anthony's using chloroform to clean the car. I think George would have known to do it.

There was a bottle or can of cleaning fluid in the trunk of Casey's car. I haven't read all the evidence testing to see if this "cleaning fluid" was tested to see if there was any components in it to produce the smell of chloroform.

 

[Ripley007]

There was a bottle or can of cleaning fluid in the trunk of Casey's car. I haven't read all the evidence testing to see if this "cleaning fluid" was tested to see if there was any components in it to produce the smell of chloroform.

A bottle of "cleaning fluid"? are you sure? I remember there was a container of "Arm&Hammer" something-or-rather. Perhaps laundry detergent?
I suspect the parents (A's) of a clean up.
I take all, except the actual police reports, with a BIG GRAIN/SHAKER of Salt....JMHO. Here's my broken record theory (should make as my sig line) the A's should have NEVER drove the Sunbird to their home. The VERY MINUTE they discovered it reeked of HUMAN DECOMP was the very minute they should have called 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How different this case would have been then?....we will never know....

Personally, I NEVER thought Caylee was being sytematically drugged...the entire Choloform issue will read to a jury like a "coincedence". A young woman researching this after reading her BF's MySpace....Mark my words....Am I wrong?

 

[faefrost]

Nancy Grace show tonight said there was evidence of Chloroform on the liners from the trunk in the car. The Autopsy report was released today. But what it did not say is if there was chloroform on the pink shirt, shorts, winnie the pooh blanket, duct tape, paper towel, and the laundry bag.

We already know there was searches of Chloroform found on the computer. But what if Cindy or George used that to clean up the crime. Cindy did wash the clothes that were in the car. George would have known exactly what to use for clean up.

I am beginning to come to the theory that Caylee died in her sleep. I think the duct tape was placed over her mouth & nose after she died to prevent leakage of decomposition. Why I think she was murdered in her sleep is because of the matting of her hair. Common sense here tells you no one wakes up with the perfect hair. That poor child was murdered in her sleep.

Caylee was so badly decomposed that I am sure they can't be 100% certain that Caylee might have actually been drugged. But I am telling ya'll that poor little girl was asleep. Another reason why I think that too other then the matting of the hair, also is the winnie the pooh blanket. My own 3 year old grandson sleeps with his favorite cars blanket.

I think George or Cindy used Chloroform to clean the trunk liner of that car after they had picked it up from the tow yard.

I agree that the chloroform was probably used in an attempt to clean. Someone probably read somewhere that chloroform is used as a solvent in DNA testing, and thought it would get rid of the biological evidence from the trunk or at least the smell.

I will respectfully disagree about the tape however. I cannot see any scenario where someone would do that to a corpse. The ME repor clearly says it was applied before decomposition began. So either before Caylee was dead or very very shortly after she was killed. Given the fact that her mother drove around with her decomposing body for several days, I think it is safe to assume she lacked the capacity or caring to plan ahead for things like leaking decomposition fluids. That tape was to silence a child be it in life or death. It was an act of hatred nothing more or less.

 

[Ripley007]

OMG, I was reading some of the reports about the chloroform levels in the trunk and the mixtures of chemicals, etc., and I must say, I found myself completely confused and lost.

If I were a juror, I'd want to hear from the experts for both sides and have them just cut to the chase. I don't want to be confused by all the scientific ratios of pig vs. human vs. cleaning supplies. I'm not sure I would need to know how they got there, just get there. Does anyone else feel the same way? I think often times all the forensic science confuses jurors.

I TOTALLY hear and get you!!! I agree. And once a jury learns that shortly before the computer Chloroform googling was done, that KC discovered her BF's newest pic on MS was All About chloroform (as an innocent JOKE), they will weigh this Plausible answer against any other accusations made re: chloroform. And CERTAINLY by the end of the trial, it will be quite clear to the jury that KC AIN"T THE BRIGHTEST BULB IN THE BOX!!!!!JMO

 

[Valhall]

Some one had asked a question in the thread discussing the results of the forensic report in relation to the duct tape of how KC could have handled multiple pieces of duct tape and not gotten one fingerprint on them. I'd like to throw something out in this thread and see what people think.

Assuming KC did mix up some quantity of chloroform (which I tend to believe she did) and then went about the dirty deed. She most likely would have just "winged it" as far as administering it. If she used it to knock Caylee out either to drown her (which I think may have been the case) or just to avoid struggling while she smothered her (either with something external or via the tape itself), maybe she way overdid it on the use of the chloroform. Really soaked something up good with it to where it was literally soaking wet. For the sake of consideration, she's got it all over her hands now, and maybe all over Caylee's face. Chloroform being one of the strongest solvents would have played hell with the duct tape sticking because it would have started dissolving the adhesive on contact. Are the multiple pieces of duct tape because of this? Because it wasn't sticking well? And did the chloroform keep KC from creating a good fingerprint? Because if her hands were literally wet with chloroform, I believe her fingers would have almost slid across the adhesive instead of sticking to it.

It's just a thought I had. I actually might have the means to test this via my chemist friend.

 

[Devon]

Some one had asked a question in the thread discussing the results of the forensic report in relation to the duct tape of how KC could have handled multiple pieces of duct tape and not gotten one fingerprint on them. I'd like to throw something out in this thread and see what people think.

Assuming KC did mix up some quantity of chloroform (which I tend to believe she did) and then went about the dirty deed. She most likely would have just "winged it" as far as administering it. If she used it to knock Caylee out either to drown her (which I think may have been the case) or just to avoid struggling while she smothered her (either with something external or via the tape itself), maybe she way overdid it on the use of the chloroform. Really soaked something up good with it to where it was literally soaking wet. For the sake of consideration, she's got it all over her hands now, and maybe all over Caylee's face. Chloroform being one of the strongest solvents would have played hell with the duct tape sticking because it would have started dissolving the adhesive on contact. Are the multiple pieces of duct tape because of this? Because it wasn't sticking well? And did the chloroform keep KC from creating a good fingerprint? Because if her hands were literally wet with chloroform, I believe her fingers would have almost slid across the adhesive instead of sticking to it.

It's just a thought I had. I actually might have the means to test this via my chemist friend.

But doesn't chloroform burn the skin? I think if KC spilt it on herself she'd have been too busy jigging in pain to think about dealing with strips of duct tape! She also would probably have been feeling quite woozy as well!

 

[christee]

Just had a thought: wonder if KC tried to mix up her own Chloroform to (how do I put this gently) use on Caylee. If she didn't mix it right wonder what the effects would be? guess we'd have to know the ingredients she'd used but I remember reading (in earlier FBI report-maybe the Oak Ridge analysis) that Chloroform could not be made from household products.

IDK

 

[Jolynna]

Just had a thought: wonder if KC tried to mix up her own Chloroform to (how do I put this gently) use on Caylee. If she didn't mix it right wonder what the effects would be? guess we'd have to know the ingredients she'd used but I remember reading (in earlier FBI report-maybe the Oak Ridge analysis) that Chloroform could not be made from household products.

IDK

Chloroform can be made from easy-to-obtain products. There are instructions on how to do it online.

There are links to those sites on the previous WS chloroform threads.

 

[celticthyme]

Some one had asked a question in the thread discussing the results of the forensic report in relation to the duct tape of how KC could have handled multiple pieces of duct tape and not gotten one fingerprint on them. I'd like to throw something out in this thread and see what people think.
SNIPPED

Because it wasn't sticking well? And did the chloroform keep KC from creating a good fingerprint? Because if her hands were literally wet with chloroform, I believe her fingers would have almost slid across the adhesive instead of sticking to it.

It's just a thought I had. I actually might have the means to test this via my chemist friend.

Valhall,
I think this could be a possibility, but if you remember from the documents, the presence of prints of everyone from the family were excluded, except for Casey's, and I really think they do have her prints on the duct tape. I think this is one of the coffin nails, along with the multiple layers of tape covering both airways. ( my theory of her death is over on the theories # 5 thread)