Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[indogwetrust]

I agree completely that it feels a bit wrong to be reading Allison's private diary entries - they are so very personal and telling of how hard things were for her.

The other thing that raised the hair on the back of my neck was the entry "Were you prepared to live with the guilt if I hadn't found out?" (BBM)

It seems he is able to live with the guilt of having done something much worse than having an affair MOO

Yes, this also stood out to me too Thinking! Couldn't help but gasp out loud. For Allison to be asking that question and now we're all wondering the same thing for her, for something far worse, it's all a bit freaky and distressing.

 

[Amee]

I still wonder why NBC and EBC havent been to the hearings yet? They were there by his side with the business but have layed low since. Id be there for my son no matter what.
For the locals , are they out and about in town?

 

[alioop]

Peter Davis submitted that another aspect of the case was regarding the telstra records. He referred to Mr Baden-Clay's ( I presume this was GBC) affidavit with exhibited bundles of telstra records. There are a number of phone calls to Mrs Baden-clays phone that were unanswered but her records show at 6.31 am there was internet activity which showed the phone being used at Fig Tree Pocket. The judge said that not necessarily related to a postcode region. Peter Davis said that it meant Fig Tree pocket phone tower and that this shows her telephone was away from Mr Baden-clay who was at Brookfield at 6.30 as evidenced by his phone records as there was activity on his phone at 6.32am on the Brookfield tower. There was a very minor mention of the words facetime call but I didn't really catch what was being said but it was just a few words so I don't think it was anything significant.

Peter Davis submitted as to financial position, there has been a retreat from the prosecutions position now that the full accounting has been done. He said his client seems to be on the wrong side of solvency by $58,000. Judge said thats not solvency.The judge said the prosecutions position is that that he was in financial difficulty. Peter Davis said yes. Judge said Mr Baden-Clay was in tears trying to get a loan of $300,000 in March. Peter Davis said that debt obligation was in fact delayed and was due in June.

Peter Davis then submitted that in relation to his client googling self incrimination and taking the fifth, it seems obvious that my client viewed a TV program and didn't know what these terms meant so he looked them up.

Peter Davis submitted his client had family ties in Brisbane, a business and no passport and wasn't a flight risk. the Judge said he took the point regarding family ties but even someone who has those and a business might still take the view that it is better to abandon a business, particularly if not worth much, than have to spend life in jail. Judge pointed out he didn't have a house any more.

Danny Boyle for the prosecution then got up for his turn to make submissions at 3.30pm. He reiterated evidence that we already knew about. I didn't take as many notes during his submissions as it was mostly stuff I knew and i was posting on ws while he was talking.

He referred to Peter Davis' submission that the body had no injuries. He said she had a subdural heamatoma and bruising on interior left wall of her chest resulting from a mild degree of force. He said smothering and strangulation were possible causes of death but can't tell due to the decomposition. He also said it cannot be excluded that her light coloured jumper was used as a ligature to strange her as from what I gathered, one sleeve was found to be pulled off her arm to some extent.

He said Dr Gordon Dymer's report said 6 species of plant material was found on her arms, hair and head. Only 2 of those were found at Kholo Creek and all 6 found near the rear patio and carport of the house at Brookfield.

Danny Boyle then made submissions about the phone activity report with the Fig Tree Pocket tower. The judge says it must be a co-incidence that activity on both their phones occurred within a minute or two. Danny Boyle said that there are very technical issues regarding cell towers so we don't know what to make of the Fig Tree Pocket location issue. He said we haven't found her phone to conduct tests on it.

Danny Boyle said that Allison had been on and off Zoloft since she was prescribed it for post natal depression and mood swings bought on by PMT.

He referred to Mr Cowley's evidence of seeing a lone woman walking as drawing a long bow to say it was Allison. He said it was a nondescript identification. Mr Cowley was driving in the dark with headlights on. The judge said his opportunity to observe her wasn't good.

Danny Boyle stated that they looked at the captiva and his shoes and there was no plant material on them that was found at Kholo Creek. He said they looked at the wheel arches.

He submitted there was no material change of circumstances and that flight risk and interference with witnesses were still relevant issues.

The judge then left the court to ponder the submissions and I left. So I wasn't there when he came back.

 

[alioop]

Mods if this isn't allowed please delete. If anyone can find a link online please share. This is from p2 of today's courier mail. Article by Kate kyriacou and Brooke baskin.

"Justice Peter applegarth heard several parts of the Crown's case had been disproven since the first bail application - including the existence of a call using the FaceTime app apparently made by Baden-clay to his father during the early hours of April 20.

The court was told the prosecution would no longer rely on a google search for 'taking the fith' that Baden clay did days before his wife's death.

Thoughts on this?

As I mentioned in my part 2 notes, I heard a minor comment about the facetime call but I didn't hear anyone say that the call was disproven. I do recall a comment in court at some stage about GBC's being up during the night to charge his phone.

Re the googling taking the fifth, it does seem he had a good explanation for googling it. I don't see that as any big deal and in fact may suggest that he used that handily acquired info to refuse co-operation with the police as he thought he knew his rights, or at least the American version of his rights.

 

[alioop]

Alioop, thank you very much for sharing that (the whole thing, I mean). Re: names, could you tell whether those were predominantly male or female? I am just wondering who still wants to support the b... BC. Don't people realise that if GBC is found guilty, not only they lose the money, but they will be the supporters of a murderer?

Grannie, I wrote down 3 names, 2 female and one male all with different surnames and none familiar to me.

 

[alioop]

So, are the reports saying that Allison fell from the bridge (or was dropped) or was placed where she was found (or died there)?

I always thought, after going to the bridge, that it looked like she was dropped from the bridge.

Nads your post reminded me that even though I didn't take a note of it, that it was said in court that Allison had no injuries consistent with a fall from the bridge.

 

[alioop]

"I'm now driving the streets. My, my father's come over and, to look after the children," he said.

6.15am he is awake
7.15am phone police
8.00am police arrive

yet he states he was now driving the streets? yeah right. Inbetween making lunches getting the girls up....

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...baden-clays-face/story-fndo45r1-1226537344568

This comment about him driving the streets is consistent with him admitting to police that morning that he was driving the captiva that morning which was contained in the police brief for the first bail application.

 

[Fuskier]

Personally I do not think this 'Tight-Ar$$e' would have willingly got rid of an i-phone or anything that had a resale value. He probably kept the phone and dumped the sim card the night before.

>>6.20am: Police allege Mr Baden-Clay sent a text message to Mrs Baden-Clay saying: "Good morning! Hope you slept well? Where are you? None of the girls are up yet! Love G">>
Then...
>>6.41am: A second text message was reportedly sent saying "Al, getting concerned. Where are you? The app doesn't say either? [Two children] now up. I'm dressed and about to make lunches. Please just text me back or call! Love G".>>

What I do know (from experience) is that an i-phone still gets messages if still on 'i message' or whatever that app is called WITHOUT the sim card !

Then Daddy (clipping him across the ears) told him to get rid of it as after he messaged Allison on her phone and it pinged right there on the kitchen table !

>>7.15am: Mr Baden-Clay called triple-0.>> According to old Timeline.

We do know he said to the police
>>"I'm now driving the streets. My, my father's come over and, to look after the children," he said. >>

He was 'out' 'looking for Allison' ? Really ? I too think he was out getting rid of the phone. (grudgingly !) and while he was out phoned the cops

This is interesting Zim:
6.20am: Police allege Mr Baden-Clay sent a text message to ABC saying: "Good morning! Hope you slept well? Where are you? None of the girls are up yet!..."
Then...
6.41am: A second text message sent saying: "Al, getting concerned. Where are you? The app doesn't say either? [Two children] now up. I'm dressed and about to make lunches...".

In contradiction to this, OW told Police 'that Gerard told the girls shortly after 6.00am that mummy had gone for a walk and probably fell down a hole (and) would not be back'."

 

[alioop]

I thought the caterpillars were initially the reason for the scratches?

My belief is that he did actually get bitten by a caterpillar on the neck at the cross country at the school. This is nothing to do with the scratches on his face, underarms or torso.

 

[Mountain Misst]

You are a gem Alioop. Diamonds are rocks aren't they? :yourock:

 

[Fuskier]

I have gone through my notes from yesterday's court hearing and thought I would post the interesting bits even though most have been mentioned now either by myself or MSM. I haven't seen any court documents, I have only heard the judge and the lawyers discuss those documents.

Most of the affidavits filed by the defence were by supporters of GBC to say they would provide surety, $800,000 in total, for his bail if it were to be granted. Some names were mentioned but they weren't names I had heard of and see no need to post...
<respectfully snipped>
Part 2 to come . Stay tuned.

Alioop great detailed contribution and interpretation. Much appreciated.

 

[Fuskier]

Hi all, I've been following the latest events - thanks to everyone for their reports - and feeling very relieved after yesterdau's outcome. Even so, especially after reading today's newspaper with clippings from Allison's diary I just feel so full of sorrow all over again.

Regarding that witness who saw a woman walking looking troubled on Boscombe Road on the morning she disappeared -That witness reported it to police (and to the neighbour I heard it from) on that very morning - I heard it that afternoon. What the defense did not make clear and probably hoped no one would ask was that the witness said the woman was walking/jogging UP Boscombe road in the direction of the State Forest, ie, in the opposite direction where she was found. I hope this is made clear in court and this witness is asked in what direction and the jury is shown a map and see this. I also hope that woman, whoever she is, might now come forward and say it was her. She might not have reported it because she had nothing to report. She'd gone for an early jog and seen nothing - why would she report that? When I first hear of this sighting, long before Allison was found, I didn't hear that the woman looked 'troubled'. Rather, i heard she looked like she was trying to jog but was having difficulties, as in, she did not appear very fit - that part of Boscombe Road is very hilly and often has this effect. Also I heard this man who saw the woman was not driving to a neighbour as apparently was reported in court yesterday (thanks alioop) but was driving to a job interview in the Gold Coast.

I also think that when GBC was driving 'around looking' he was actually picking a spot to get rid of her mobile.

Thanks for the clarification Thebutlerdidntdoit. These details are important. Information appears to be have 'skewed' to fit the case. In addition 'what looks troubled to one, might appear otherwise to another. 'Looking troubled' was troubling in itself as there was no definition of what was meant IMO. It is a matter of perception unless clarified as you have done.

 

[alioop]

Gbc had find.my friends app on phone but gbc said that app on his phone had never been used. So he lied in histext to Allison. Judge says that was pretty stupid of him to lie. Danny says yes and that gbc thought he may not havehad his phone tested. This is from my post #957 on the previous thread direct from the court room.

I just want to clarify given a post from Doc Watson about this app on their phones, that the police evidence is that GBC told police that the find my friends app on his phone had never been used. So it was inconsistent with his text to Allison. Either way he was caught out in a lie.

 

[possumheart]

Can anyone tell me if there were two versions of the Courier Mail today? Mine has headline 'Court Death Shock' rather than 'In Her Own Words'.

 

[alioop]

All drugs get metabolized, usually by the liver or kidneys. Plenty of other ways as well though. So as well as measuring the levels of the primary drug (eg Zoloft) the labs can often measure the different stages of metabolism of a drug by measuring the known metabolites - i.e. the breakdown products of the drug. And sometimes it is the metabolites that are the active components - in fact, many drugs work that way.

In the case of Zoloft (real name sertraline), the active metabolite is norsertraline, which can be measured. But I don't know what the levels would be that would (a) be expected in the liver, due to that first-pass principle I posted previously, and (b) what level would cause adverse effects. I also don't know how one could extrapolate from a level found in blood from the liver, to the levels that would be in the general circulation.

Any pharmacologists around the place?

EDIT: I may be able to check with a pharmacologist early next week, if it's still of relevance, but would also need to know what levels were actually found in that blood taken from the liver, after 11 days.

Thanks Doc for the info on the metabolites. I also remember now that when Peter Davis submitted to the judge that Allison had a fatal dose of Zoloft/metabolites as found in her liver, that the judge pointed out to him that the pathology report stated that those levels had been fatal in a couple of cases but there had been other drugs involved in those cases that may have contributed to the death of those other people. I think this is very important and you have posted that you think it unlikely she could have suicided with a zoloft overdose.

 

[alioop]

Can anyone tell me if there were two versions of the Courier Mail today? Mine has headline 'Court Death Shock' rather than 'In Her Own Words'.

Poss, mine which I get delivered has "In her own words" headline. So sounds like there are 2 versions. Interesting.

 

[Fuskier]

Fuskier I agree. My thoughts are that the case has to be one of the following scenarios MOO:

(he told the police officer that his father and sister did not know about the affair allegedly, so if this is true then I guess there may be some remote chance that they know absolutely nothing and were there purely to help him out that morning) ... <respectfully snipped> ... MOO

Agree with your points Thinking. However, GBC was less than truthful to the Police that his parents and sister did not know about the affair. The facts are otherwise: the affair with TMcH was public knowledge, within the local community, the work place and the parents were part of the workplace. GBC and TMcH had been in a relationship over the past four years, had become known within the family even with the three little BC girls. TMcH helped restore the BC Seniors home after the floods went through. There were photos in earlier threads about this. This has been well documented in earlier threads and in msm. My opinion only.

 

[alioop]

I would just like to say a big thank you to GBC for his second bail application as we now have so much more info to sleuth.

On the other hand I feel for Allison's family for the unnecessary stress this has caused them and hope they are as ok as they can be in the circumstances. We are here for justice for them as well as their lovely Allison.

 

[possumheart]

Poss, mine which I get delivered has "In her own words" headline. So sounds like there are 2 versions. Interesting.

Thanks Ali. I bought mine at 4pm and there were a stack of them at the store.

The diary stuff isn't in it.

 

[alioop]

So I would say the early edition for the deliveries was then changed to the second edition. Wonder if anything else is different.

Edit, just saw your comment about the diary stuff.