Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #45

[marlywings]

Ther was also some talk way back in the beginning that GBC purchased gloves

I think you may find that was nothing more than a rumour which surfaced after the glove was found at Kholo. There was quite a bit of speculation also about gloves being purchased. Sometimes rumours/speculation on here have an odd habit of growing legs & becoming fact.

"Police may have overlooked store cards to see if gloves were purchased by Allison for normal housework and are missing now or same brand!!"

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7864228&postcount=1090"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012[/ame]


I think there were quite a lot of items found during the search for Allison, police took them in for ID. One in particular was a grey shirt, first thought to belong to Allison but turned out it was a child's size...according to Constable Kellie Thomson's statement.

 

[they'll get you]

I know but it is still an intriguing call .... Mmm

Either way it's an ungodly hour to be at an office. I wonder what was in his diary for that day or who was he meeting there or, or, or did Allison & he have a fight then and he just took off to the office.....ahhhh I'm just getting more confused :banghead: BRING ON THAT DAMN TRIAL!

 

[sosocurious]

Was checking out CC hardwork and noticed that on SUNDAY'S
25 March - GBC - no calls
1 April - GBC - no calls
8 April - GBC - no calls - 2 texts to OW
15 April - GBC - no calls - 1 text to family member

Office Phone
25 March - phoned GBC - 3 times from Taringa
1 April - phoned GBC - 1 time from Taringa
8 April - phoned GBC - 1 time from Ind'pily
15 April - phoned GBC - 4 times from Taringa

This office phone has ne intrigued its working on GBC's day off.

The other office phone has no calls recorded only WAP/NET
It connected at MT Cootha at 9.37 am on the 20th Apr for 26.03 mins.
Now that cant have been GBC because he was a little bit busy.

 

[Milisi]

I've also been curious as to Allison's Internet usage at odd early hours of the morning, haven't got the phone records open at the moment, but there were a couple of 1am-ish, 4 am-ish, on various days. Trouble sleeping, or checking something?

 

[Saxons]

It's actually not hard to tear the tip off a finger of surgical gloves. I've done it on many an occasion. Especially if they're wet on the inside with sweat (eg nervous). The whole glove doesn't come off - just the finger tip.

But I'd agree that if it was the glove of one of the Crime Scene people, it would have been noticed and noted - well documented.

Wonder if there was any DNA inside the glove tip? Nothing mentioned in the autopsy report....

Yes there are kitchen & gardening gloves (heavy duty with no tactile sensation) and latex/non-latex surgical gloves. Yes you can buy latex disposable gloves in supermarkets, and they are not dissimilar to the gloves used in hospitals/GP practices and the like used for non-sterile procedures. So GBC could have bought those easily.

But is that what the Crime Scene people would have used? Everyday disposable gloves? I honestly don't know, and I am likely to think not. Happy to be corrected though.

Even with sterile surgical gloves, there are varying brands/anatomical sizing/strength of those surgical gloves. Sorry Doc, whilst you are "plumbing" expert, I am but a "carpenter". Although we "carpenters" have the crude tools to rip holes in our gloves frequently, we routinely double-glove, so in 20 years I have never detached an entire fingertip of a glove. Many holes, rips or slits but never pulled off a whole finger tip.

Just my opinion...

 

[LadyBird1]

It's actually not hard to tear the tip off a finger of surgical gloves. I've done it on many an occasion. Especially if they're wet on the inside with sweat (eg nervous). The whole glove doesn't come off - just the finger tip.

But I'd agree that if it was the glove of one of the Crime Scene people, it would have been noticed and noted - well documented.

Wonder if there was any DNA inside the glove tip? Nothing mentioned in the autopsy report....

Wouldn't this constitute an Incident report if the glove belonged to one of the Crime Scene people?
Their gloves would have been for their own protection, not worn to cause contamination to the body. No need for sterile procedures as in hospitals...
The fellow in charge of recovering the body was ultra particular, so much so, that even her precise position of her body was to remain as found. That by itself indicates the meticulous manner in which things were handled.
As remarked earlier, an Incident report would surely be required, as the wearer would risk contamination to him/herself.

 

[DrWatson]

Yes there are kitchen & gardening gloves (heavy duty with no tactile sensation) and latex/non-latex surgical gloves. Yes you can buy latex disposable gloves in supermarkets, and they are not dissimilar to the gloves used in hospitals/GP practices and the like used for non-sterile procedures. So GBC could have bought those easily.

But is that what the Crime Scene people would have used? Everyday disposable gloves? I honestly don't know, and I am likely to think not. Happy to be corrected though.

Even with sterile surgical gloves, there are varying brands/anatomical sizing/strength of those surgical gloves. Sorry Doc, whilst you are "plumbing" expert, I am but a "carpenter". Although we "carpenters" have the crude tools to rip holes in our gloves frequently, we routinely double-glove, so in 20 years I have never detached an entire fingertip of a glove. Many holes, rips or slits but never pulled off a whole finger tip.

Just my opinion...

The Crime Scene folks use either the thin, beige-coloured latex powderless gloves, or more commonly, the blue Nitrile powderless gloves.

As a "carpenter" - you mean an awfulpod? Yes, I've had many a rip or split in glove tips, especially on broken rib ends, etc, but I've also pulled the end of a finger tip off a glove on more than one occasion. The last time was while using a rib-cutter on a clavicle to resect a manubrial osteosarcoma. It was a tough clavicle, and my glove fingertip got caught in the grip part of the handles of the doube-action cutters, and my hand slipped off them as I squeezed - the fingertip stayed where it was! Quick re-gloving and all was well. So yes, it can happen. And in Allison's case - it obviously DID. But WHO did it happen to - that is the question!

Could a fingertip get pulled off just by dragging somebody out of the back of a car, for example? There was obviously sufficient pulling that the arms came up and the jumper pulled up half over her head and still had her arms in the sleeves... but would that have pulled the tip off a glove finger?

Or could Allison have been frantically trying to pull a hand away from smothering her, and pulled the tip off a finger of the glove if the perp was wearing them at that time?

Boggle, boggle... that's my mind making that noise at the moment...

 

[DrWatson]

Wouldn't this constitute an Incident report if the glove belonged to one of the Crime Scene people?
Their gloves would have been for their own protection, not worn to cause contamination to the body. No need for sterile procedures as in hospitals...
The fellow in charge of recovering the body was ultra particular, so much so, that even her precise position of her body was to remain as found. That by itself indicates the meticulous manner in which things were handled.
As remarked earlier, an Incident report would surely be required, as the wearer would risk contamination to him/herself.

Yes indeed, LB1. If it WAS a glove belonging to a crime scene person, it SHOULD have been documented. Those gloves are worn for protection BOTH ways. Not to get contamination of the crime scene by extraneous fingerprints, DNA etc from the examiners, and also to protect the examiners from getting any of the gooey stuff on themselves....

 

[Zanzibar]

Have I missed the resolution to buying and posting more documents?

 

[Sleuthis-maximus]

It's good the sleuthing continues, when I had a break in domestic commitments over Easter I did some more exploring of Brookfield

One question to locals, and sorry if this is obvious, but what is that red phone booth? is that decoration only? I'm sure if was lit up at night another time I drove past, but it was in paddock nearby large animals?

 

[Saxons]

The Crime Scene folks use either the thin, beige-coloured latex powderless gloves, or more commonly, the blue Nitrile powderless gloves.

As a "carpenter" - you mean an awfulpod? Yes, I've had many a rip or split in glove tips, especially on broken rib ends, etc, but I've also pulled the end of a finger tip off a glove on more than one occasion. The last time was while using a rib-cutter on a clavicle to resect a manubrial osteosarcoma. It was a tough clavicle, and my glove fingertip got caught in the grip part of the handles of the doube-action cutters, and my hand slipped off them as I squeezed - the fingertip stayed where it was! Quick re-gloving and all was well. So yes, it can happen. And in Allison's case - it obviously DID. But WHO did it happen to - that is the question!

Could a fingertip get pulled off just by dragging somebody out of the back of a car, for example? There was obviously sufficient pulling that the arms came up and the jumper pulled up half over her head and still had her arms in the sleeves... but would that have pulled the tip off a glove finger?

Or could Allison have been frantically trying to pull a hand away from smothering her, and pulled the tip off a finger of the glove if the perp was wearing them at that time?

Boggle, boggle... that's my mind making that noise at the moment...

Ah yes sorry - your skills are not just "plumbing", but a bit of chopping out lung tree roots as well Yes an awfulpod as you suspected - I know of those thin brown gloves and the equally woeful nitrile, but I use the dark brown ortho-resistant Encore gloves. As some would say (usually the Brain Boys)... appropriately more thick for those who are thickest!
Did it say anywhere what colour the tip of the glove was? Bright blue or beige?
Yes chopping off the glove tip might be possible by getting caught in the jaws of a pair of nibblers, but I am struggling to imagine how you would do it in he scenario we are presuming? Car door is plausible, or maybe a boot closing??

And then again, if GBC was wearing gloves, that inserts a whole level of premeditation that puts the "fell over, struck head" theory to bed.

 

[DunnoZo]

:banghead::bangheado you think he was wearing the gloves while preparing the lunches? sorry...

When would one hope a date be set? Is it something that will be publicized?

 

[DrWatson]

Did it say anywhere what colour the tip of the glove was? Bright blue or beige?
Yes chopping off the glove tip might be possible by getting caught in the jaws of a pair of nibblers, but I am struggling to imagine how you would do it in he scenario we are presuming? Car door is plausible, or maybe a boot closing??

And then again, if GBC was wearing gloves, that inserts a whole level of premeditation that puts the "fell over, struck head" theory to bed.

It does indeed. The autopsy report says "As the previously described jumper was being examined, a fingertip of a cream coloured rubber glove fell out. It is not clear whether this was present within the jumper, or may represent some contamination at the scene. It was not present as a result of contamination within the mortuary."

Cream coloured would suggest those powderless gloves that come in boxes, with an opening in the top like a Kleenex box. The nitrile ones are similarly packaged. Which then poses the question as to where the rest of the box may have been, if indeed it was the perpetrator who wore those gloves?

On the news channels videos etc, you can see that most of the crime scene police etc were wearing the blue gloves, although as you would know, some people can get one type on but not the other, so they'd probably have both types available.

Regardless of just HOW we may imagine a fingertip came adrift - there is no question that one DID. So perhaps the struggling and pulling at a gloved hand may be a possibility?

 

[Saxons]

It does indeed. The autopsy report says "As the previously described jumper was being examined, a fingertip of a cream coloured rubber glove fell out. It is not clear whether this was present within the jumper, or may represent some contamination at the scene. It was not present as a result of contamination within the mortuary."

Cream coloured would suggest those powderless gloves that come in boxes, with an opening in the top like a Kleenex box. The nitrile ones are similarly packaged. Which then poses the question as to where the rest of the box may have been, if indeed it was the perpetrator who wore those gloves?

On the news channels videos etc, you can see that most of the crime scene police etc were wearing the blue gloves, although as you would know, some people can get one type on but not the other, so they'd probably have both types available.

Regardless of just HOW we may imagine a fingertip came adrift - there is no question that one DID. So perhaps the struggling and pulling at a gloved hand may be a possibility?

Oh ok - yes I can imagine ABC grabbing at gloved hand that has one of those thin white disposable gloves and pulling off a fingertip of the glove. Did she hold on to it (not necessarily intentionally, just was in her grip) and then as her jumper was forced up, thats where it stayed? Inside the sleeve?

Those thin creamy white disposable gloves are very thin - wouldnt be hard to tear off at all. So my theory of having GBC and ABC having a ding dong domestic and resulting fall that resulted in her death doesnt fit with wearing gloves. And where did he get those gloves from? Or maybe it wasnt him? See, I still think TM was way more involved than we think. But thats just me.

Like I said before - he just doesnt seem clever enough to have planned all this out. Well his bumbling explanations certainly aren't!

IMO

 

[Sleuthis-maximus]

I cant believe we have two specialists now! 10,000 brain power!

Would the struggle cause a massive rip though in the glove? As in, the whole thing breaks rather than just a tip coming off?

I have no experience with gloves... though maybe even an over extending of a gloved finger, i.e. it being stretched may have inadvertently caused the tip to snap off?

 

[LadyBird1]

Oh ok - yes I can imagine ABC grabbing at gloved hand that has one of those thin white disposable gloves and pulling off a fingertip of the glove. Did she hold on to it (not necessarily intentionally, just was in her grip) and then as her jumper was forced up, thats where it stayed? Inside the sleeve?

Those thin creamy white disposable gloves are very thin - wouldnt be hard to tear off at all. So my theory of having GBC and ABC having a ding dong domestic and resulting fall that resulted in her death doesnt fit with wearing gloves. And where did he get those gloves from? Or maybe it wasnt him? See, I still think TM was way more involved than we think. But thats just me.

Like I said before - he just doesnt seem clever enough to have planned all this out. Well his bumbling explanations certainly aren't!

IMO

How about not using gloves for the actual murder, but being clever in all things Scouting, used gloves only for the disposal of a deceased body. Having googled up self incrimination, he/they decided that no evidence would be left.
Need to have all bases covered so to speak.
Naturally if buying gloves along with sausages turns out not a rumour, then he will have an answer at the ready. Protection from caterpillars, washing up gloves for kitchen, anything half plausible. So that too will be inadmissible along with the "light bulb injury" that can not be proven or disproven.

 

[Saxons]

I cant believe we have two specialists now! 10,000 brain power!

Would the struggle cause a massive rip though in the glove? As in, the whole thing breaks rather than just a tip coming off?

I have no experience with gloves... though maybe even an over extending of a gloved finger, i.e. it being stretched may have inadvertently caused the tip to snap off?

Thats overly nice of you, but I am pretty sure I don't add that much more power to the good Docs experience and knowledge. And he does actually save lives...we just put broken bits of you back together. Hopefully around the right way most of the time.

Yes the type of glove he is describing is incredibly elastic and you could grab a hold of a finger and it would stretch quite a way, and then likely snap off with just the fingertip end. I (like the Doc) have only seen them come in boxes like a tissue box. So here is a question...where did he get it from?

If it was him wearing it though of course.

IMO

 

[they'll get you]

Thats overly nice of you, but I am pretty sure I don't add that much more power to the good Docs experience and knowledge. And he does actually save lives...we just put broken bits of you back together. Hopefully around the right way most of the time.

Yes the type of glove he is describing is incredibly elastic and you could grab a hold of a finger and it would stretch quite a way, and then likely snap off with just the fingertip end. I (like the Doc) have only seen them come in boxes like a tissue box. So here is a question...where did he get it from?

If it was him wearing it though of course.

IMO

Could the fingertip got caught on Allisons diamond ring and then the jumper got pulled over her head, I doubt an earring would have been strong enough OR she bit the finger, it pulled then fell into her tangled clothing?
Just some thoughts.

 

[Sleuthis-maximus]

Hehehe this is a win for web sleuths...:great:

The glove tip is interesting though, I wonder if there was an inventory done (once it was discovered) by QPS etc.. to try to eliminate it having been introduced by accident by officials....although I assume everything would have been packed up by time of autopsy.

As DW said, I wonder if DNA was able to be obtained from the tip.

This case has so many perplexing points.

Thats overly nice of you, but I am pretty sure I don't add that much more power to the good Docs experience and knowledge. And he does actually save lives...we just put broken bits of you back together. Hopefully around the right way most of the time.

Yes the type of glove he is describing is incredibly elastic and you could grab a hold of a finger and it would stretch quite a way, and then likely snap off with just the fingertip end. I (like the Doc) have only seen them come in boxes like a tissue box. So here is a question...where did he get it from?

If it was him wearing it though of course.

IMO

 

[Sleuthilicious]

Was checking out CC hardwork and noticed that on SUNDAY'S
25 March - GBC - no calls
1 April - GBC - no calls
8 April - GBC - no calls - 2 texts to OW
15 April - GBC - no calls - 1 text to family member

Office Phone
25 March - phoned GBC - 3 times from Taringa
1 April - phoned GBC - 1 time from Taringa
8 April - phoned GBC - 1 time from Ind'pily
15 April - phoned GBC - 4 times from Taringa

This office phone has ne intrigued its working on GBC's day off.

The other office phone has no calls recorded only WAP/NET
It connected at MT Cootha at 9.37 am on the 20th Apr for 26.03 mins.
Now that cant have been GBC because he was a little bit busy.

I wonder if the office phone is diverted to GBCs mobile after hours?