Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#7

[Sigh Sister]

I hope you're not mad, Otto; sometimes a discussion does not feel "over", and has to be gone over again, as something was left unsaid.

That's what we do here. Rehash things over and over and over...... I don't see it as a problem. :seeya:

 

[Katody]

Luminol evidence identifies Guede's shoeprints leaving Meredith's bedroom, going down the corridor to the exit, and becoming more faint as he approaches the exit..

No it doesn't. There was no luminol evidence of Guede's shoeprints, only "traditional" bloody trail. Interestingly only one of his shoes left bloody prints.

If he walked from Meredith to the bathroom and back, there would be luminol evidence ... and there isn't.

That's how we know that Guede did not walk from the bedroom to the bathroom wearing his bloody shoes.

Or his shoe wasn't bloody at that moment.

Or ... is the suggestion that there was no blood on his shoes after participating in the murder of Meredith and that would explain why there are no bloody footprints from Meredith to the bathroom and back. That would also explain why there are no bloody shoeprints belonging to Sollecito. We still have the bloody print on the pillow case that has a consistent size with Knox's shoe size.

There's a simpler explanation for the lack of anyone's prints but Guede's. Guede was there alone with his victim.

 

[otto]

Yes there was a blood soaked towel found near Meredith IIRC

What we know is that Knox's towels were not missing and that she found them in her bedroom after the shower. We know that Knox was not shocked that her towels were missing ... because they weren't. She found her towels in her bedroom exactly where she expected to find them. This would suggest that only Meredith kept her towels in her bedroom, but that doesn't make sense either.

We know that Meredith was creeped out by Knox bringing strange men to the cottage, and by Knox's vibrator/condoms in the bathroom. We know that Knox picked up the cold sore virus (which was evident during trial) when she was in Perugia.

Given that Knox kept her towels in her bedroom (none were missing because they were used to aid Meredith), and Meredith was uncomfortable with Knox's frequent hook-ups, doesn't it make more sense that Meredith also kept her towels in her bedroom?

 

[Katody]

I read the German Diary of RG's that was posted the other day, he says he got a towel from the bathroom to hold against her neck, it got soaked and didn't stop the bleeding (or help) so he got another, with same results - I saw a towel on the bed in a photo, which did not look like anyone held that against a hemorrhaging wound - was there another towel found? I didn't see a second in the pics.

There were a lot of towels completely soaked in blood on the ground.

 

[otto]

No it doesn't. There was no luminol evidence of Guede's shoeprints, only "traditional" bloody trail. Interestingly only one of his shoes left bloody prints.

Or his shoe wasn't bloody at that moment.

There's a simpler explanation for the lack of anyone's prints but Guede's. Guede was there alone with his victim.

I disagree. If we are at the point of claiming that after the murder, Guede did not have blood on his shoes, then I think we have to throw out all the claims that because there is only one bloody shoe print that is the same size as Knox, Knox and Sollecito could not have been in the bedroom.

That is, if Guede did not have blood on his shoes, then why should the other convicted murderers should be perceived as innocent due to identical circumstances.

 

[otto]

There were a lot of towels completely soaked in blood on the ground.

There were also towels in the washing machine ... which was warm when Filomina arrived and which was reportedly running when the Postal Police arrived.

 

[whoanellie]

Exactly. Then why did she lie? Why did she deny ever making that phone call?

It's all so excrutiatingly simple when you view it from a "guilty" standpoint. She knew what was behind those doors the entire time. She said something to her mother which suggested that she knew what was behind the doors. And she did not want that information getting out to prosecutors. MOO.

I'm beginning to see in this case, that all of Amanda's actions/words make sense coming from a standpoint of viewing her as "guilty" and as knowing exactly what happened to Meredith because she was there, and very little of it makes sense coming from the viewpoint that Amanda knew nothing about what happened to Meredith because she wasn't there.

So it's like this line -------------------------------> Guilty

and this -----
------
-------
--
-------
-------------
----
-> Not guilty

Hmm....I know which one I'm going with.

Thanks for making it a little clearer to me how you try to "connect the dots". As far as I know she never "denied" making the phone call. She simply said she didn't remember it. There is a difference.

 

[Katody]

A website themurderofmeredithkercher published the chart with dimesions that were based on the actual dimensions from the photos in the Rinaldi report. The chart was deleted for some reason. Perhaps someone here wants to recreate the chart based on Rinaldi's photos of the prints. It's very clear from the chart that most of the measurements in the bath mat print are consistent with the dimensions of Sollecito's foot.

I think the photos from Rinaldi's report you posted with the dimensions marked with arrows were much more informative and less deceptive.

 

[Sigh Sister]

What we know is that Knox's towels were not missing and that she found them in her bedroom after the shower. We know that Knox was not shocked that her towels were missing ... because they weren't. She found her towels in her bedroom exactly where she expected to find them. This would suggest that only Meredith kept her towels in her bedroom, but that doesn't make sense either.

We know that Meredith was creeped out by Knox bringing strange men to the cottage, and by Knox's vibrator/condoms in the bathroom. We know that Knox picked up the cold sore virus (which was evident during trial) when she was in Perugia.

Given that Knox kept her towels in her bedroom (none were missing because they were used to aid Meredith), and Meredith was uncomfortable with Knox's frequent hook-ups, doesn't it make more sense that Meredith also kept her towels in her bedroom?

We just talked about this yesterday or the day before. :floorlaugh: :escape:

 

[otto]

I think the photos from Rinaldi's report you posted with the dimensions marked with arrows were much more informative and less deceptive.

Rinaldi's report can be found here:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Rinaldi_&_Boemia_Photo_Appendix

 

[aa9511]

BBM
1. I do understand and appreciate all points made above, yes.
2. I think for me, any tendency to "connect the dots" is not from some ill-will toward Amanda, but perhaps toward the American mainstream media. I keep thinking that their jumping on the pro-innocence bandwagon is a bad sign. (I don't care for our media and they are so wrong about so many issues, it is almost a criteria for truth, if they ignore or jump on something )
3. My GUT reaction when I read what Edda said - keep in mind, I say, GUT and NOT logical! - was that Edda was worried re what Amanda may have told police, and that the first call may have been, "Mom, I don't know what to do, horrible situation here; You may have to come over; I may be in big trouble" and the Mom thinking, "Oh, what has she done now?" ---but who knows, it is MY gut, with my history, memories, etc. and so I take it with a big old grain of salt, and store away for future reference.
4. Any other "pro-guilt" ( I consider myself "on the fence", btw) posters want to say what they thought the first call was about???

I agree. It could have been something like you said, "something really bad has happened. I could be in big trouble. I think you need to get here asap." It could even have just been "Mom, you need to get here asap. Just find a ticket, whatever the price is, just find the earliest one and come here." Which, in the context of a burglary and not the murder being discovered, does not make sense. However, with a murder subsequently being discovered, and Amanda's involvement in it, it makes a lot of sense.
It could have been something like, "omigosh Mom I think something really bad has happened to Meredith. Something bad is happening. I think you need to get here asap, please come quickly." (which just guessing that something bad has happened to Meredith is not wrong, given the circumstance, so then why would she lie about it? Because she wasn't guessing, she knew, and she knew she shouldn't have known something had happened to her).

It could have been "Mom, I dont know what to do. You have to come and help me. I don't knwo what to do......".

One sees from all of those, that given the subsequent events, all of them would raise red flags for the person who heard the conversation, upon thinking of it in hindsight.

Of course, those are just hypotheticals, since someone asked......

 

[Katody]

Exactly. Then why did she lie? Why did she deny ever making that phone call?

It's all so excrutiatingly simple when you view it from a "guilty" standpoint. She knew what was behind those doors the entire time. She said something to her mother which suggested that she knew what was behind the doors. And she did not want that information getting out to prosecutors. MOO.

The simplicity of it is subjective, for sure
Let's assume she remembered the call perfectly well and she said very very incriminating things in it.
Why would she pretend not remembering it in the courtroom? It doesn't make any sense. She would have readily corrected Comodi's falsehood and told some prepared made up story, coordinated with what her mother testified.
Doesn't add up.

 

[Katody]

There were also towels in the washing machine ... which was warm when Filomina arrived and which was reportedly running when the Postal Police arrived.

Neither warm not running. It's an oft repeated lie.
You'll find out it's lie when you try to find it in Filomena's or the postals' testimony. It's not there.

 

[aa9511]

bbm

I am quite sure Edda wouldn't have put Amanda's reason for calling into question. That's not accurate representation of the conversation.

Here's how Galati's appeal transcribes the conversation ( bear in mind it's translated twice, from English and from Italian):



That's all. I don't see Edda questioning Amanda's reasons for calling.

Really? All I see is Amanda trying to circumvent her mom asking her questions about that first call, by saying first that she didn't remember calling her.

 

[otto]

Why would anyone expect that when a prosecutor is cross examining a suspect druing trial, the prosecutor is going to feed the facts to the suspect? It is the responsibility of the suspect to present the facts.

 

[otto]

Neither warm not running. It's an oft repeated lie.
You'll find out it's lie when you try to find it in Filomena's or the postals' testimony. It's not there.

I am not a liar. I read the testimony on the weekend and will post the link in a bit.

ETA: I stand corrected. I reviewed the testimony as much as possible, and the Postal Police officer says that he did not check the washing machine when he arrived at the cottage. Filomina says that the washing machine was not running when she arrived.

 

[ShadyLady]

There were also towels in the washing machine ... which was warm when Filomina arrived and which was reportedly running when the Postal Police arrived.

Between that and the whole mop and beach thing, Amanda just does not add up. imo

What also is odd, after you kill someone why try to mop up blood, why not just leave?

 

[aa9511]

I really don't get the problem, she didn't try to hide the fact that she called her Mom, with everything that was going on, first seeing signs in the cottage that something was wrong and then all the activity, what difference does it make if she forgot later that in the middle of everything she called her mother? Or even after she saw signs and before others arrived?

Kids have been on cell phones 24/7 since their inception, I'd be surprised if they could remember half the calls they make at any given point. I just don't see that her forgetting that call makes a single bit of difference, or gives the impression that she may be guilty of anything.

It does make a big difference if she said something to her mother which suggested or implied that she knew what or that something had happened to Meredith before her dead body was discovered.

IMO, it makes a big difference.

If she had told the prosecutor what the content of the call was, we could rest these questions. But she didn't. Instead, she said she couldn't remember ever even making the call.

So, as long as we have questions, we have questions.

 

[Myvice]

The simplicity of it is subjective, for sure
Let's assume she remembered the call perfectly well and she said very very incriminating things in it.
Why would she pretend not remembering it in the courtroom? It doesn't make any sense. She would have readily corrected Comodi's falsehood and told some prepared made up story, coordinated with what her mother testified.
Doesn't add up.

Wasn't "forgetting" was used throughout the investigation? Why change that if she perceives that that is working for her.

 

[SMK]

Exactly. Then why did she lie? Why did she deny ever making that phone call?

It's all so excrutiatingly simple when you view it from a "guilty" standpoint. She knew what was behind those doors the entire time. She said something to her mother which suggested that she knew what was behind the doors. And she did not want that information getting out to prosecutors. MOO.

I'm beginning to see in this case, that all of Amanda's actions/words make sense coming from a standpoint of viewing her as "guilty" and as knowing exactly what happened to Meredith because she was there, and very little of it makes sense coming from the viewpoint that Amanda knew nothing about what happened to Meredith because she wasn't there.

So it's like this line -------------------------------> Guilty

and this -----
------
-------
--
-------
-------------
----
-> Not guilty

Hmm....I know which one I'm going with.

All above BBM -- Yes, you know what is so fascinating (and infuriatingly FRUSTRATING) about this case:

So much of the "dry evidence" (footprints, etc. ) and simple logical inference seem to support Guede as lone wolf.

But on the other hand, so much of the psychology and Amanda oddities "evidence" seem to make more sense if she is viewed as knowing and culpable. There is almost a dual-narrative going on which runs through the whole case.

If you "plug-in" foreknowledge (not even actual guilt) on the part of Amanda, all suddenly snaps into place, as it were.

This is just a theory, but it struck me (and of COURSE I am aware that I could be wrong, but this is the intuition) that the recorded jail conversation was almost a "code" for the Mom:


1. Amanda makes panicked call to Mom after she and RS (perhaps only peripherally) find that RG has killed MK (they feel implicated because they were the ones that brought him over, and perhaps were responsible for starting the initial altercation which they never dreamed would end in this action of RG) (I actually once saw a movie based on a true story which involved just this type of situation > guilt by association/being present and not stopping the crime/parents wanting silence maintained and communicate that to child)

2. So she tells Mom they brought RG over and now have found that he killed MK
Edda tells her to admit to NOTHING, no involvement or knowledge; call police - she will be over to Perugia ASAP

3. the recorded jail conversation is a sort of "coded feeling-out" of this:
-Edda (surprised): But you called me three times. have you told anyone about the first call?
-Amanda: Oh, I don’t remember that. no
-Edda: Okay, you called me first to tell me about some things that had shocked you. But this happened before anything really happened in the house. no details about what you told me?
-Amanda: I know I was making calls. I remember calling Filomena, but I really don’t remember calling anyone else. I just don’t remember having called you. no
-Edda: Why would that be? Stress, you think? chalk it up to stress and keep silent

Disclaimer: JUST a theory based on visceral reaction and intuition---I am very aware that this is only conjecture.SMK