Analyzing the Ramsey family

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by angelevie, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    I want to start the thread saying that as long as I have been fully educated on the details of JonBenét's case, I have always, always 100% believed Burke Ramsey is responsible for the head trauma that would have ultimately caused JonBenét's death. to understand this, we have to understand the dynamics of the Ramsey household. I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences with all of you! forgive me for any inconsistencies or confusing writing, this was mostly a stream of consciousness with some revision here and there!

    first of all, the Ramsey family was rich and they lived in a well-off neighborhood in what is akin to a mini-mansion and the children attended private schools. boulder, co is a quaint community of upper-class white families with perfect homes, perfect couples, and perfect kids. the Ramsey family fits this narrative to a T, save for Burke, and let me tell you why.

    I grew up very similarly to JonBenét. pretty, wealthy, a ballet dancer for a prestigious company, living in a cookie-cutter gated community where people are all goody-goody on the outside, but judgmental and uppity. this sounds really fake, but it's a real phenomenon and it can be very debilitating for a family to "keep up" in these types of neighborhoods, even when they've got the "right stuff". my parents were fortunately not concerned with keeping up with our community, even if we were loners. I never entered the pageant circuit despite a push from others as my mom didn't agree with placing such adult expectations and ideals on children. but that's another conversation!

    I once babysat for a mother who was a lot like Patsy — high-maintenance, image-focused, southern belle. she passed off her kids to me for weeks because when they weren’t showing off, she couldn’t handle the stress of them. she treated them like her dolls to display for her friends and then when the parties were over and the camera wasn’t rolling, she wished she could just take out the batteries and not have to deal with the other 90% of parenting… I have absolutely n0 clue what Patsy was like as a mother beyond what media has captured. I'm sure she loved her children very much, but loving your children doesn’t equal always doing what’s right for them or putting them above yourself. I think there were absolutely times when Patsy found her kids annoying when they were just being kids and not extensions of her success. she was a narcissistic woman and cared greatly about being a revered presence within her circle.

    JonBenét suits the "perfect" image well. she was a sweet and beautiful little girl, following in her mother's footsteps with pageantry, she was naturally gifted at performing, precocious, outgoing, and effortlessly charming when interacting with adults. she was fun for Patsy to dress up and makeover, and she was a pleaser. she wanted to make her parents happy.

    now back to Burke. a lot more like his father in that he is quiet and seems distant. Burke also shows signs of someone who has Asperger's Syndrome, which displays social awkwardness and hyper fixation on certain behaviors/interests that others might find odd. my nephew has Asperger's, and his very image-concerned mother finds him difficult and embarrassing at times. he is talked about by others as being unusual, which his mother views as a criticism of her. he's lanky and doesn't play sports like other boys his age, he only talks about his special interests and is often very isolated from his peers. none of this bothers him, but it does bother his mom, and he knows that. Burke has been described as "shy", not very talkative, someone who kept to himself and certainly wasn't a child Patsy could show off to her friends as a poster child.

    then my nephew's little brother comes along. he doesn't have Asperger's, is sweet, gives hugs, loves to sing, charms every adult he meets. this is what JonBenét is and what shallow mothers want. they favor their child who isn't "problematic". the older child notices and it makes them angry. let's get one thing clear — a child does not need to be evil to be a bully. sociopathic behavior is learned out of anger, struggles with socialization, and feeling inferior, primarily as a defense mechanism. seeing Burke in home videos, hearing about him from people who knew him, I believe he was a kid who developed sociopathy. however, even accidentally hitting his 6-year-old sister hard enough on the head to fatally injure her at 9-years-old is certainly possible. average 9-year-old boys are bigger and stronger than average 6-year-old girls.

    siblings naturally like to pick at each other and fight for attention, especially kids from privileged households like the Ramsey's where there isn't a precedent of responsibility set up as there might be in a low-income household where everyone is required to pull their weight, so to speak. with JonBenét being the star, Burke would be resentful and mean, and this would add on to their rivalry as siblings and be compounded by his lack of connection to other people. this happened between my nephews. additionally, 9-year-olds typically have a very limited concept of death + the idea that all injuries can be healed. I have always pictured this kind of scenario —

    the Ramseys return home late at night. JonBenét is taken to bed as soon as they return home after falling asleep in the car. Burke asks for a snack and Patsy agrees to get him some pineapple before bed. (keep in mind that is an interaction solely between mother and son without sister stealing any attention, Burke might find this very special and covet it.) Patsy goes upstairs to the master bedroom to pack, leaving him downstairs to eat. JonBenét wakes up, sees lights on, and goes downstairs — as many young children would — to find out what she's missing out on. she finds Burke eating her favorite food, and as a mischievous child who enjoys teasing her brother, she ran past and picked out some pineapple with her fingers and ran off with it (only Burke and Patsy's prints were found on the bowl and spoon, so how else would JonBenét have ingested pineapple without either of them recalling feeding it to her?) Burke was angered by this, as he viewed the pineapple as his. he chases her, grabs the first thing he can (likely, the flashlight matching the indentation in JonBenét's skull), and hits her. Burke allegedly had a history of physically harming his sister that was gossiped about in the community. JonBenét suffers a head injury that causes brain damage and she is unconscious. Burke sees that she doesn't get up as she usually would. being naive and not fully understanding the extent of her injury, he doesn't want to get in trouble for hitting her, so he leaves her there and goes to bed. Patsy discovers JonBenét unresponsive later, calls for John and eventually they talk to Burke and he tells what happened.
    remember Patsy is a narcissistic and image-focused woman. one of the first things she would think of is how this all will affect her. she looks at JonBenét, figures there is nothing more they can do for her. letting Burke be responsible for the injury that causes his sister's death would only confirm all of the gossips about how he was different and wasn't a loving brother or perfect son. that would reflect on Patsy and John negatively. given the situation, someone like Patsy would absolutely never allow being viewed as anything other than a victim. she chooses to make her daughter a martyr, famous for her beauty, crowns, and her tragic murder that her loving family must deal with.

    I want to clarify I don't think Patsy is a bad person. I think good people can do bad things. someone who was raised from a young age under idealistic expectations like Patsy would be even more susceptible to making selfish decisions. she is headstrong and once she made up her mind there was no going back.

    John Ramsey is the opposite of Patsy. she is the driving force of that household, he simply pays for it. John Ramsey is passive; he bends to his wife (it's obvious especially in the interviews they do together where Patsy will direct the conversation, and he is left kind of speechless.) he doesn't have the conviction to stand up against her. they stage the asphyxiation, as it is a very erotic concept supporting assault as well as a mode that doesn't shed blood or deform someone. the garrote would be physical proof to others of pre-meditation and sexual motive. as the autopsy determined, they do end up actually killing JonBenét with this, but understand: she would have been in a vegetative state by that point with the cranial bleeding she suffered. most deaths aren't instant. often, brain activity will stop before the nerves supporting lung/heart activity die. for JonBenét, the brain stem likely continued facilitating respiration and a faint heartbeat, but that too would have ended with time as her injury went untreated. even she'd been brought to the hospital when they found her, only her breathing and heartbeat could have potentially been maintained with machinery, but that is not life. she was truly already dead before the staging.

    to further bolster the intruder narrative, Patsy writes the note — theatrical and scary, something sensational that she believes will sell the story.
    Burke sits aside and isn't spoken to. Patsy makes the 911 call, once again dramatic — but she can't say her daughter's name. she just says "my daughter" or "that child", which I believe is a sign of feeling guilty and wanting to deny that JonBenét had her own life separate from her family that is now gone. the crime scene is botched by the Ramseys. friends are invited to bring forensic evidence into the home and be witnesses to the distress of John and Patsy. Burke is sent away to family so that he can't slip up, the media is spoken to by John and Patsy before police are, Burke comes back to Boulder completely aware of and unfazed by his sister being dead — as if she was never there, she never meant much to him, and he already understood why she was never coming back. typically kids don't get the permanence of death until much later.

    Boulder law enforcement got behind the Ramseys because this is a town that cares greatly about being seen a certain way, and being home to a killer brother isn't part of that. they wanted to believe it was an outsider and they kept the investigation private in order to protect their own. in wealthy + cookie-cutter communities like Boulder and the one I grew up in, people do drastic things to look idealistic, even stuff like this.

    I don't believe the Ramseys are bad, or that Burke is evil, or that Patsy didn't care about her daughter. I don't believe JonBenét was being serially abused — I think the bedwetting was a result of stress from pageants, pageant practice, excessive bullying from her brother, and a bit of emotional neglect from her parents. bedwetting isn't a concrete sign of CSA and kids being abused usually exhibit very different behaviors than JonBenét had. her mother was narcissistic but doting when JonBenét did what she wanted, her father was busy but when he was home he was kind and goofy. she was surrounded by love. any trauma resulting from the stress + minor neglect wouldn't have shown up until later in life.

    sorry for such a long read! but, I do hope you enjoyed it and were able to see a new perspective based on my personal experiences with this stuff. IMO, the family should never have spread this lie, for any reason. it was a betrayal of JonBenét. JonBenét was pretty and charming but above all else, she was a 6-year-old child full of life and promise, a baby with friends who drew hearts on her hands in her kindergarten class, who got barbies and bikes for Christmas, who played pretend as Rapunzel from her balcony, who believed in fairies and Santa... she deserved to become an adult. and I'm so sad for her that the thing attached to her name will always be her sordid death and what I believe is a lie.

    feel free to reply and let me know what you all think! please be respectful, as always ~ :)
     
  2. Lilibet

    Lilibet Watching and Waiting

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    Welcome angelevie! I don’t usually post on the Jon Benet Forum, but I do read occasionally. Thanks for your insight.

    I agree with you about the “keeping up appearances” angle. It has always seemed likely to me that it happened as you describe and for the reasons you lay out. Protecting Burke and the family reputation would explain the coverup. I’m not sure that the parents would have covered up for each other so effectively, although I suppose it’s possible that they would to protect their marriage and reputation. Sigh. We’ll probably never know. It’s all such a tragedy. Poor little JonBenet. :(
     
  3. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence to suggest Burke has Asperger's Syndrome.

    Burke hit JonBenet once with a golf club. He was 7. The incident had been described as an accident by the only adult who was present. There are no other known examples of Burke exhibiting violent behavior toward JonBenet or toward anyone.

    No one who knew Burke described him as strange. He has been described as quiet. He wasn't gossiped about in the community.

    Burke's prints could've gotten onto the pineapple bowl at any time. The maids were off. I doubt anyone who lived in that house knew how to run a dishwasher.

    Burke was probably jealous of JonBenet. All kids are jealous.

    JonBenet's skull was split almost in two. She sustained an 8.5 inch cranial fissure. A plug of bone was popped from a particularly dense portion of the skull. The blow was struck by someone who possessed considerable strength.

    A leading child abuse expert was shown the autopsy report and slides. He concluded that JonBenet had been the victim of chronic prior sexual abuse.

    Prior to her having been strangled, either John or Patsy could easily have taken JonBenet to an ER and described the head-injury as having been the result of an accidental fall.
     
  4. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    I didn't intend to claim that there is any diagnosis or documented proof of any of these things... there definitely isn't, and I do believe there is reason for that. in my opinion, he exhibits signs that would typically result in a diagnosis of Asperger's if he were a child in today's age. I only say this because two members of my family have been diagnosed with it and Burke reminds me of them, and child psychologists have described him as "emotionless", among other things. I suppose it was a bit inappropriate to be so gung-ho about my personal read on him...

    but we don't have to even put a label on it to say he absolutely has social deficits. watching his behaviors, watching him speak... he's odd, to many people. (not to everyone, of course, but based on a majority!) people in the community wouldn't say that out loud to the Ramseys and I never meant to imply that they did. nobody says outright on the streets that stuff about somebody or their kid, especially when being nice and friendly and wholesome is part of the image. any criticism is very unspoken, but you can just tell atmospherically. perfectionist moms like Patsy wouldn't like their kid being weird and Burke is weird. he has some issues. pretty much everyone who sees him agrees on that. people close to him obviously wouldn't say that and would have other experiences with him that eclipse any of his social awkwardness.

    JonBenét was 6-years-old. 6-year-olds do not have thick skulls. their skulls haven't hardened yet. bone growth in an average child is malleable until 12 years of age, give or take. that's why when children have mild bone deformities, they are given braces and physical therapy ASAP, rather than in adulthood when it will be impossible to change the way the bones and joints have formed over all those years.
    if you take a flashlight or an object like a frying pan or other things that would have been present near the kitchen, those things are heavy. 9-year-old boys on average can lift those things. the rest would be physics. if Burke can swing a flashlight up in the air, he can absolutely swing it down + the added force of gravity would provide a pretty strong hit. I tripped over a bump in the carpet at 5-years-old, hit the blunt corner of the wall on my skull, broke my skull. it wasn't hard because my bones were still soft. it didn't take tremendous strength to do.

    I agree John and Patsy could have taken her to the ER and treated it as an accident, and should have. however, as I've explained, even something unspoken within perfectionist and uppity communities would cause someone like Patsy to be defensive and avoid any chance of rumoring. Patsy clearly favored JonBenét and I believe that goes beyond gender. JonBenét brought her attention, Burke didn't. Burke is weird. he's different. she knows that. everyone could tell that. he was a nice kid but that doesn't mean he fits in and that bothers the Ramseys and families like them. I don't expect everybody to believe that or think it's true that people could be like that, but in my experience, people can absolutely be selfish enough.

    I am curious about the child abuse expert's research though — I've heard about her vaginal opening being abnormally large for her age and her hymen being either broken or thin, both of which strike me as odd. I've always felt that it could have just been how she was built and part of her genetics. if you have a link to that information or a thread about it I'd be interested in reading it!

    thanks for the reply!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  5. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    hi Lilibet!! thank you for reading ~
    I completely agree that the parents wouldn't have covered up so well if it were for each other. in my opinion, if my husband or wife killed our daughter, accidental or not, I would never cover that up for them to this length. maybe in the Ramseys' case, they'd want their marriage and their choice of a spouse to seem perfect too... but I don't think even the Ramsey parents would be capable of that if it were one or the other of them responsible. most people would get justice for their child and divorce their criminal spouse, as their child is their flesh and blood and parent/child have a different, deeper connection than spouse/spouse.
    but, when the killer of your flesh and blood is also flesh and blood... and a child at that... you might feel differently. it's easy to disown someone who is family by law, but family by blood isn't as much. especially when you are partially if not completely responsible for that child becoming a certain way.
    </3 the whole thing is messed up and so sad, no matter how you look at it... :(
     
  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    angelevie,
    Thanks for your theory, it might have gone along the lines you suggest. I reckon the fact that JonBenet lived a priviliged lifestyle contributed to her death, since the Ramsey wealth cocooned her and Burke to living in a large house with Patsy concentrating on her socializing, and John away on business regularly, this left Burke and JonBenet alone together, relatively isolated thus allowing JonBenet to become a victim.


    Yes, this is the the alternative theory to that of the autism, medical issues take on the case. It conflicts with James Kolar's theory, but might be more plausible if rivalry between Burke and JonBenet for Patsy's attention is factored in?

    Consider Patsy dumped Burke as a project and focussed on JonBenet, so there was probably jealousy underlying Burke and JonBenet's relationship?

    The thing is did Patsy drop Burke in favor of JonBenet because he exhibited medical issues, e.g. autism etc, or was his behaviour irregular in the sociopathic sense, i.e. why did Patsy really drop Burke?

    What kind of mother was Patsy, was this a factor in Burke's upbringing, did he feel rejected or lack emotional support, something that JonBenet did not appear to lack?

    .
     
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  7. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    No child psychologist described Burke as emotionless.

    We can't know whether or not Burke would be diagnosed with autism or Asperger's today because we don't know anything about him. We've seen some very brief footage of childhood interviews. In those video excerpts, he acts like a typical kid.

    I watched the Dr. Phil episode and saw a shy 29 yr. old who was nervous. A lot of people were bothered by the fact that he smiled.

    No one who knew the family has ever suggested that Patsy was rejecting toward Burke or that he was thought of as a problem child.

    Occasionally someone who claims to know Burke in real life will pop in to a discussion forum here or there. He is generally described as quiet and as a nice guy.

    A 6 yr. old's bones aren't as dense as an adult's but a 6 yr. olds bones aren't eggshell fragile like a baby's either. No 9 yr. old possesses the physical capabilities of an adult.

    And again, I'm not clear on how, if the point of the coverup was to avoid judgement from within the community, it wouldn't have been preferable to just take JonBenet to an ER and say she slipped in the bathtub or that she fell down the spiral staircase.
     
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  8. Swirlz

    Swirlz Well-Known Member

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    "DR. MCCANN

    In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

    There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

    McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

    McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

    Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

    In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

    Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

    In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

    Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

    All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."
     
  9. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    hi UKGuy, love this insight! thank you!
    I never felt that Burke had autism. obviously, we don't know everything about Burke or autism even, but from what we do know I've just never connected those things. he seems to be very aware of reality, just not interested in it, which is more in line with asperger's.

    it is my feeling that Patsy may have had trouble bonding with Burke as an infant. this initial bonding period between mother and child is very important to a child's development. usually it is because of the mother — Patsy may have had post-partum depression, or simply be frustrated with her sudden responsibility to someone who isn't her. Patsy is very self-absorbed — she wants to do what she wants to do. a baby throws a wrench in that. however, it can also be because of the child... if Burke does have some mental issues, that could have been with him even in early childhood. he might have ended up colicky or cry a lot, not be cuddly or reach for his mother, which can be upsetting to a mom. children who become sociopathic or psychopathic are always sited as lacking a physical + emotional bonding phase with their mother in the first 2 years of life. I don't think Patsy is very physical and I don't think she likes getting dirty, and kids are... well, dirty, at times. a nanny was introduced fairly quickly, I imagine, to keep Patsy sane. Burke likely didn't spend a lot of time with his mother which forged distance between them.

    additionally, Burke is a boy. he is quiet and takes more after his father in interests and personality. he doesn't resemble Patsy really at all. narcissistic people have difficulty relating and connecting with people who aren't like them, and I believe thats the case with Patsy with Burke vs. Patsy with JonBenét. Patsy passed off Burke to John in her mind, even before JonBenét was born. and then, of course, JonBenét was a mini Patsy. Burke was just Patsy's kid. I think in terms of emotional attachment and parenting, Patsy was the same with both kids: I think she viewed the responsibility as tiring and beneath her at times. JonBenét was just more "fun" for Patsy and had the benefit of possessing a personality and interests that Patsy had, which satiated Patsy's need to be emulated and feel superior as a narcissistic individual. I'm sure Patsy rewarded JonBenét with her affection a lot more than Burke, because JonBenét did things she liked and that represented herself and Burke didn't really. Burke was an after-thought for Patsy because she didn't feel anything in common with him, and instead of conforming to what her child needed, she stuck with what she wanted. lots of parents do this, sadly.

    if you read Patsy's memoirs about her daughter, she refers to her very selfishly — "she wanted to wear evening gowns, just like mommy", + using words of possession such as "my child" or "my daughter" instead of saying her name. I also think it's telling that JonBenét Patricia was named after her parents John Bennett and Patricia, whereas Burke is just Burke... with no obvious connection aside from the shared surname.

    Patsy's disinterest in Burke during his initial years probably contributed to his quiet and reserved nature. he learned to be by himself and therefore didn't express himself. JonBenét comes along, and he sees something different. in someone with personality traits like Burke jealousy might end up reading as disapproval. he may have developed an ego due to low self-esteem influenced by a lack of attention and encouragement from his parents. by the time JonBenét was born, Patsy and John had become more accepting and used to their role as parents, and were more engaged with their daughter in her formative years. Burke and JonBenét were raised with different levels of engagement from their parents and I don't think many people dispute that, despite not being proven.
     
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  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    angelevie,
    Here is an account of Patsy switching her focus from Burke to JonBenet, the concept of your children being projects is very questionable, to me at least.


    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Excerpt
    So there was definitely some maternal dynamics going on here, could Patsy's focus on JonBenet have affected Burke, i.e. would it color how he viewed relationships, e.g. JonBenet?

    Did Burke end up exploiting JonBenet in relational terms which ended up all going wrong?

    Both Burke and JonBenet were seeing a therapist prior to JonBenet being killed so something was going on.

    .
     
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  11. Craig24

    Craig24 New Member

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    I thought basically the same thing when I saw Burke on Dr. Phil. Yes, he acted “off”, but he was protected, then chose to stay out of the public eye. Growing up that way would leave someone with a lack of socialization and confidence, not to mention it was his first interview. Personally, the way he was smiling seemed to me more like a nervous habit than a smile for any other reason. You have to look at the way he smiles and consider the style in combination with the rest of his body language.
     
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  12. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    I would agree with that. I personally never saw the smiling as odd, to be honest. lots of people laugh when they're nervous, and I always thought it was unfair that people called him a creep and guilty just for smiling and laughing awkwardly... to me it's the non-television interviews from when he was a child, he's got these little nuances in his speech patterns that I just happen to notice, watching the footage of him being questioned by police during the investigation, etc. I find adult Burke to be pretty average and he seems like a nice albeit reserved and awkward guy.
     
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  13. angelevie

    angelevie Member

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    I do agree, none of this is anything beyond speculation!
    explaining the reason for staging a murder rather than an accident is very layered... I think the nature of the coverup being what it was, was still the Ramsey parents not wanting to be culpable for their child's death in any way. 3 different scenarios are plausible in my opinion —
    1) Burke being involved and the parents wanting to protect him, and their family reputation within the Boulder Bubble.
    2) I don't like bringing up other cases in my responses usually but to clear up how I see things, maybe it'll help... if you look at the Madeleine McCann disappearance, people still blame the parents even in kidnapper theories. "they left their 3-year-old daughter alone in an unsecured apartment! if she was kidnapped, it's still their fault for being irresponsible" is something you hear a lot. I don't think the Ramseys, specifically Patsy, wanted to take any blame at all for what happened. I also think the time at which the injury had to have been discovered to rule out the ER visit comes into play. evidence confirms JonBenét had to have had that injury for at least 1-2 hours before the strangulation. even if JonBenét did simply take a fall, the fact that she wasn't discovered until 1-2 hours after doesn't reflect well on parents. "where were they? why weren't they focus on their children? what were they doing all that time that they didn't check on her?" unless, of course, they weren't awake. in that case, they likely would've just taken her to the ER and said something to the effect of "it seems like she got up in the middle of the night to go get something from downstairs and she fell, and we didn't find her until the next morning." but this clearly didn't happen, because what we got was a kidnapping + murder case, which indicates something that would directly implicate one of the family members present in the home that they wanted to hide.
    3) if Patsy/John is responsible for the head injury, perhaps getting angry at JonBenét (commonly theorized to be the bed-wetting) and throwing her against something, then that obviously can't come out for the same reasons I've laid out above. it is my belief JonBenét was brain dead pretty quickly, however, if she weren't then bringing her to the ER might result in her being able to tell what her mother/father did to her, which leads to the label of child abusers on the Ramsey parents.

    a coverup is all possible only if you think of the Ramsey parents — and especially Patsy as it's pretty clear she "wears the pants" IMO based on the media interviews we've seen — as shallow and self-centered in nature. I believe whatever happened in that house happened because the Ramseys didn't want to be seen as guilty or responsible. an intruder scenario covers all the bases — they were all asleep and couldn't have been watching JonBenét, they weren't the cause of the signs of abuse because there was a third party able to do those things, they didn't cause the injury or the strangulation. a "bad guy" did all that. not a good rich idealistic white family of upper-class middle America. they can wash their hands of any guilt or responsibility in the public eye, and I think that was the goal.
     
  14. neednewhobbie

    neednewhobbie New Member

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    [QUOTE="angelevie, post: because the Ramseys didn't want to be seen as guilty or responsible. an intruder scenario covers all the bases — they were all asleep and couldn't have been watching JonBenét, they weren't the cause of the signs of abuse because there was a third party able to do those things, they didn't cause the injury or the strangulation. a "bad guy" did all that. not a good rich idealistic white family of upper-class middle America. they can wash their hands of any guilt or responsibility in the public eye....t[/QUOTE]

    Exactly! Well said Angelevie! And sadder still, how can they ever truly be sorry when no guilt is admitted! That sweet poor little girl!
     
  15. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Well, here I go...
    Like many of you WS'ers, I've camped-out here on the JBenet Ramsey, etc., thread, read books, etc., and I've thought and wondered.
    I read about the event just after it was on MSM. From the article I read, I thought that Burke did it accidentally. The article(s) about this made me think that JBenet was No. 1 in the family -- certainly with PR, and Burke was jealous. My thought was that JBR was acting out a bit, being silly, messing with him or showing-off, and he got mad (as in sick and tired of her silliness and of her always being the favorite) and he hit her and/or knocked her down. She was standing near or on the stairs to the basement, and she fell down the stairs, and died or suffered a horrible head injury and died soon after. Mom panicked -- yes, the perfect mom and wife, with the perfect two children, perfect husband, perfect house, perfect town, perfect friends, and perfect income level. Now we have a horribly imperfect problem lying on the basement floor. PR is horrified, shaking all over, trying not to scream (it's simply not done in that neighborhood); Burke is scared out of his young mind, crying and saying he didn't mean to push her down the stairs -- he just wanted her to leave him alone.
    PR tells Burke everything will be okay, for him just to go to his room and not to talk with anyone. Mom will call Dad and they'll take care of everything and JBR will be okay, too.
    I guess I have to go along with JBR being molested by someone -- that's the part that I have the most trouble with. Who? John Ramsey? Burke Ramsey? Some friend of JBR's parents? Patsy? Self-molestation? I'm stumped on that one, I guess because I have such trouble with thinking that JBR's dad did it. A stepfather, I could buy; a live-in boyfriend (never in this neighborhood!), I could buy; maybe even Burke and JBR just fooling around, maybe. But I guess it happened.
    I could be convinced otherwise on all of my theories, but I haven't been convinced yet... :D :cool:
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  16. insearchoflight

    insearchoflight Well-Known Member

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    @angelevie I find your theory interesting and plausible. Just leaves the question of who was abusing JonBenét?

    My theory is that JR was abusing JonBenét ongoing for a while and PR knew about it. I think JonBenét was becoming more mature in her looks and the way she acted. She wanted to please her parents. I think that night JR woke JonBenét and after the abuse Patsy was enraged. Enraged at JonBenét. She blamed her for it. In her mind, JonBenét flirted with JR. I think PR killed JonBenét out of jealousy and then the two parents agreed to cover it up together. Because PR was guilty for murder and JR was guilty of child molestation. BR was none the wiser. A theory with some holes I’m sure.
     
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  17. Beltonian

    Beltonian Active Member

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    insearchoflight, my theory is similar to you. I just do not see parents did all 9 yards and more for Burke and I did not see even a little rejection from parents toward Burke after he supposedly killed their precious daughter, nothing. Plus now being the adult Burke could tell the whole story - he would not be responsible anyway and all responsibility would fell on parents - he was just a little kid after all... Burke did not tell anything because most likely he knows nothing or knows very little...

    The only possible explanation is that Patsy and John were involved together because, like you said, he was molester and she did accidentally killed her. Now they have to save each other.

    Like our poster Deedee said here - it was kind of relief that poor JB died - for both John and Patsy - because they got themselves in a situation they did not see a way out from...Normal successful Dad molesting his daughter and his religious loving wife does not want to leave him to save his daughter because her perfect life will be not so perfect anymore...
     
  18. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    I can't disagree or point out any weakness in any theory from what has been posed by anyone above. Any one of them seems logical to me.
    I do wonder sometimes how eager or able LE was to really get at what happened back those many years ago -- the Ramsey house was full of people/possible suspects that night; JonBenet was deceased, not just merely injured, so she couldn't tell anyone what happened; apparently there was no evidence specific to one person, other than the ransom letter PR wrote (pretty strong evidence IMO); no one witnessed anything (as far as we know); nothing having to do with her injuries, strangulation and death pointed to someone from "outside," so what does LE do?
    It's just a sad, sad story, and it's not the only one we've seen where the perpetrator is not found, convicted, or punished.
    Poor little rich girl.
     
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  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    borndem,
    Reading the interviews the Ramseys did with the BPD, LE was not in any hurry to nail the case down. They, i.e. BPD, left answers hanging and unaswered questions drifting into space as ramnesia was declared.

    There are a few red flags in the case and most outstanding is that JonBenet was sexually assaulted, so on that basis its not PDI with Patsy whacking JonBenet, etc.

    So we are left with JDI or BDI. Past homicide case history suggests strongly its JDI, as John made all the classical mistakes of a homicide stager.

    Burke can get a pass due to his age, and the fact Colorado Statutes render him a protected person due to his age and not because he killed his sister.

    The latter can explain away any consistency in a BDI and why he has been written out of the case, as far as public records go.

    The Ramsey's housekeeper is on record saying that the parents intimate relationship had broken down with Patsy asking for advice.

    So did Patsy reject John's demands, he in turn takes an interest in JonBenet, to which Patsy turns a blind eye?

    Some variation on this theme seems the most likely, with Patsy opting to assist John with the staging, yet it does not really explain away JonBenet's injuries?
     
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  20. Beltonian

    Beltonian Active Member

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    I think Patsy stayed in this marriage for looks , status and money. John's love was long gone. He was cold and distant and even during the hardest time for Patsy - fight with cancer - he was not there for her...Their sex life , the way I see it, was minimal or none...

    During staging JB was penetrated digitally - with an object - trying to mask multiply previous penetrations ( and experts I guess were not sure was it done digitally or with other ways)...

    The other person I think could be a molester is JAR - but it seems a bit far fetched and hard to explain...
     
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