...and perhaps an innocent explanation...

DNA doesn't "move" but it can get transferred from one surface to another. That is how "touch" DNA is recovered in the first place. Skin cells rub off when they come into contact with something.
Here's a F'irinstance.
IF one of her parents shook hands with the male donor at the White's (or touched something the male donor had touched) some of the donor DNA transferred to the parent(s) hands. When they pulled the longjonhns and panties on some of the skin cells got on those items.
JB herself could also have touched those same surfaces at the White's, including toilet handles and surfaces. This could explain the lonhjohns, but not the panties unless she wore those huge size 12s to the White's (as Patsy suggested) but I don't think she did.
I am baffled as to how IDI repeatedly refuses to accept the FACT that the autopsy DID indicate prior abuse. There were bruises and contusions that were NOT from the time of death (because they were in various stages of healing) as well as an eroded hymen (which could not have happened from ONE incident). Yet, you persist in claiming there is no indication of prior abuse. As much as you might hope it, the autopsy is not RDI spin. It is fact and that is that.

I think this is a plausible innocent explanation. They probably havent checked DNA from everybody at the Whites, nor sampled surfaces at the Whites. I'll bet they didn't sample JR or PR's hands but they probably did sample JBR's hands.

Innocent stranger DNA-->JR's or PR's hands-->longjohns & underwear

Innocent stranger DNA-->Unknown surface-->JBR's hands-->longjohns & underwear

However both of these scenarios seem to be assuming that the DNA found within a blood spot is a mere coincidence. Is there a innocent explanation for DNA transfer that would result in DNA mixed with the blood spot?
 
I think this is a plausible innocent explanation. They probably havent checked DNA from everybody at the Whites, nor sampled surfaces at the Whites. I'll bet they didn't sample JR or PR's hands but they probably did sample JBR's hands.

Innocent stranger DNA-->JR's or PR's hands-->longjohns & underwear

Innocent stranger DNA-->Unknown surface-->JBR's hands-->longjohns & underwear

However both of these scenarios seem to be assuming that the DNA found within a blood spot is a mere coincidence. Is there a innocent explanation for DNA transfer that would result in DNA mixed with the blood spot?
If the panties were handled in the area where the blood was later deposited, that would account for the mix. (Note that the skin cells may have been deposited on the outside of the panties in the area of the blood spot, because the moistened swab used to “lift” the blood stain may have been applied from that side.)
Or, after pulling down the long johns, JR / PR inserts his / her finger(s) into JBR causing bleeding and a mixture of blood and skin cells that would flow out onto the panties.
 
I think we as laymen on the outside just aren't going to get to know about any other DNA besides the 'criminal DNA'.

Obviously if JBR had DNA on her hands, then there would be a mix of her touch DNA and the innocent stranger touch DNA on her longjohns. I don't think she's going to deposit only someone elses DNA and not her own.

Meanwhile, if JR or PR had it on their hands, then their DNA would also be present.

Whether the DNA is from an innocent or a criminal, there HAS to be other DNA on the waistband / underwear besides that DNA. Its probably the only way to put the DNA in true perspective but we don't have that info.
 
I think we as laymen on the outside just aren't going to get to know about any other DNA besides the 'criminal DNA'..
I agree, unlikely.

Obviously if JBR had DNA on her hands, then there would be a mix of her touch DNA and the innocent stranger touch DNA on her long johns. I don't think she's going to deposit only someone else’s DNA and not her own..
“We have shown that there is a difference between individuals in their tendency to deposit DNA on an item when it is touched. While a good DNA shedder may leave behind a full DNA profile immediately after hand washing, poor DNA shedders may only do so when their hands have not been washed for a period of 6 h. We have also demonstrated that transfer of DNA from one individual (A) to another (B) and subsequently to an object is possible under specific laboratory conditions using the AMPFISTR®SGM Plus™ multiplex at both 28 and 34 PCR cycles. This is a form of secondary transfer. If a 30 min or 1 h delay was introduced before contact of individual B with the object then at 34 cycles a mixture of profiles from both individuals was recovered.”
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999"]DNA Revisited - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Meanwhile, if JR or PR had it on their hands, then their DNA would also be present..
True.


Whether the DNA is from an innocent or a criminal, there HAS to be other DNA on the waistband / underwear besides that DNA. It’s probably the only way to put the DNA in true perspective but we don't have that info.
True, and I would bet everything I own that there is a profile there from JBR (from contact with her stomach at least) and from PR (she admits to putting on the long johns) and possibly JR.
 
I remember ST talking about the cops being afraid to hand over their boots for match test during the hi-tech boots owner fiasco.....so you tell me they just gave hair and dna samples,all of them?

This is one of the reasons I don't trust Lacy's confidence re innocent explanation very unlikely.It doesn't fit with what happened in the past.

I just don't think she managed to rule out all the people who were in contact with the body,crime scene,evidence and the house .
 
I remember ST talking about the cops being afraid to hand over their boots for match test during the hi-tech boots owner fiasco.....so you tell me they just gave hair and dna samples,all of them?

This is one of the reasons I don't trust Lacy's confidence re innocent explanation very unlikely.It doesn't fit with what happened in the past.

I just don't think she managed to rule out all the people who were in contact with the body,crime scene,evidence and the house .
I totally agree.Lacy has already proven herself to be incompetent,and those seeking the intruder theory do not want an innocent explanation for the dna.better for them to leave things as they are..unexplained.
 
OK so you think JBR picked up this DNA from a friend.

It's a possibility I can't discount as yet.

The report stated that the first DNA was found in drops of blood in the crotch area. Are you saying that DNA was deposited in one spot on the underwear, and later that same day blood was deposited on the same spot?

Pretty much.

I would discount this scenario as implausible, SD.

I figured you would, HOTYH.

Its not likely that a blood drop produced during sexual assault landed on a spot that contained DNA from playing doctor that same day.

I suppose that would depend on how big the spot was. Or how jumbled up it got.

Further, that a 6 year old would be involved in a voluntary act on the same day as an involuntary one is too far-fetched for me to even consider.

Talk about oversimplifying. For one thing, you seem to imply that she was aware of the "assault" when it happened. I hold that she was not. Moreover, even if you don't believe that JB was a victim of ongoing abuse, you have to admit she had serious boundary issues. Those are just two problems of several I have with your statement.

Still, I'm not totally unsympathetic to what you say.

I'd like a better, more realistic scenario that doesn't involve two acts in one day.

While I work on that, let me leave you with what I said above.
 
Wrt to the issue of ongoing sexual abuse, I think it's fair to say that the autopsy suggests that there was older damage to the vagina which would certainly cause alarm among medical professionals. If JBR had turned up in an ER with this damage, it would have been reported and investigated.

However, as Dave says, there were plenty of other red flags such as her boundary issues. It is known to have worried some of her parents' friends that she would ask them to wipe her and, in fact, some were flat-out refusing to do so. This is something that Patsy should have been addressing with JBR, especially since we are led to believe that Patsy had told JBR about inappropriate touching. If a child can be taught to perform competitively on stage, she can be taught about personal hygiene and there's something horribly amiss about this aspect of the child's upbringing being neglected. Similarly, a six year-old sitting crying about 'not feeling pretty' has, at the very least, the tinge of inappropriate sexualisation about it.


WRT the DNA, JBR scratching (as we all do) could transfer a fair bit of DNA. I'd imagine that a child with chronic vaginitis who hadn't been bathed for a day or two and who had on brand new undies that hadn't been washed before being worn would do some scratching. I don't see why the DNA on the Bloomies coming into contact with the LJs during the redressing can't also be seen as a reasonable explanation for the DNA. Dr Lee demonstrated that unwashed, new Bloomies usually have DNA on them. The Bloomies obviously came into contact with the LJs. Also, the coroner touched both and could have transferred the DNA from one to another. I have actually today discussed this with someone, who, while not a forensic DNA expert, works on the Human Genome Project so knows more than most about it. Her biggest concern was contamination and lab procedure failure which are both more common than we'd like to believe. It's also common currency among DNA scientists that prosecutors aren't yet properly educated in interpreting DNA evidence.
 
Some thoughts from Mark Fuhrman's book (pp131):

"In 2008, Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy announced to the press that the Ramseys had been fully exonerated by three pieces of foreign male DNA on JonBenet's longjohns and panties, acquired by scraping the sides of the clothes for skin cells, so-called 'touch DNA.'

On July 9, 2008, Cyril Wecht addressed the new findings: ' The fact that this other DNA was found at this time that matches previous DNA that was thought to be a contaminant does not then change the picture.'


Of course not. This did call not for the public exoneration the DA rushed to give; it called for investigation. There is no way to know whether it belongs to the killer - her body as well as the crime scene was hopelessly contaminated from the start. ...and DA Lacy gets to grandstand and write an apology letter to the family. And the press ate it up....'
 
I would have loved to have known that ALL males at the White's, even the children, were tested for DNA matches. If this was done at the time, simply to see whose DNA was in the panties, it would have possibly identified the abuser, if not the killer. But that would never have happened anyway, because the parents (of the boys) would not have allowed it.
All these years later, with the "touch" DNA, these then-children are adults. But I can't imagine any one of them volunteering. If the new DNA had any b*lls, he'd get a warrant to test all males who were there that day, including any of the friends who visited BR that day.
When we hear "unknown male DNA", the assumption is always that the donor is an adult. But DNA can't divulge age (unless the specimen is semen, and even then can only suggest someone who has reached puberty).
If we could have a match, that may provide the abuser, but we have to realize that the abuser and the killer may not be one and the same, regardless of what Lacy thinks.
Someone was having sexual contact with JB. It could have been nothing more than kids sexual exploration, having nothing to do with her death. Or it could have been much more sinister.
 
Actually, DeeDEE, that's a brilliant point - we do tend to infer a mature male from the DNA even though it can't tell us any such thing.

ETA: This reminds me, I gather from aforementioned Human Genome person that certain races and countries are so ethnically pure that you can identify them from their DNA. I didn't know this. This would presumably help identify someone who fit HOTYH's scenario, or at least his provenance...


Also, apparently, you can tell people's surnames from their DNA. Or at least, that's a local project that is being worked on. The problem is that the surname found is usually very common (so finding a Smith wouldn't help much) but it's another avenue for investigation a few years *hence.


*Sorry - I do say 'hence' all the time. Usually when I can't be bothered to write a proper sentence.
 
Contrary to popular belief, ML seems to be open and in fact made 'concerted efforts' to find the innocent explanation.

I am asking RDI theorists to go ahead and provide possible innocent explanations that would account for DNA in these locations.

I totally agree.Lacy has already proven herself to be incompetent,and those seeking the intruder theory do not want an innocent explanation for the dna.better for them to leave things as they are..unexplained.

Gee I thought I asked for the innocent explanation. If you have one then share it. As long as it doesn't involve JBR mixed up in two unrelated sexual encounters in one day, it'll be good.
 
ETA: This reminds me, I gather from aforementioned Human Genome person that certain races and countries are so ethnically pure that you can identify them from their DNA. I didn't know this. This would presumably help identify someone who fit HOTYH's scenario, or at least his provenance...

My guess is Asian.
 
My guess is Asian.

Ooh, lumme, which brings us back to the Bloomies and their place of manufacture...

In fairness, she spoke of parts of the Middle East, parts of Africa, parts of Scandinavia and parts of Asia as well as very isolated places in certain European countries.
 
This just crossed my mind....maybe it sounds silly but here it goes....

Let's say there is an intruder who wore gloves and touched another victim before touching JB with the same gloves on.....is such a transfer possible?And then our DNA is not the killer's but it belongs to another victim?

I know our dna is male but that doesn't mean it can't be a male victim we're talking about.We can't establish the age of the owner,or?Maybe he has been abusing a young boy before.
 
This just crossed my mind....maybe it sounds silly but here it goes....

Let's say there is an intruder who wore gloves and touched another victim before touching JB with the same gloves on.....is such a transfer possible?And then our DNA is not the killer's but it belongs to another victim?

I know our dna is male but that doesn't mean it can't be a male victim we're talking about.We can't establish the age of the owner,or?Maybe he has been abusing a young boy before.

Its more likely a gloved intruder would touch thier own face, nose, ears, and not even realize it.
 
The age of an UNKNOWN donor cannot be determined. Only in cases where the DNA comes from fluids that are associated with puberty (semen, menstrual fluid, etc) can the donor be assumed to be over the age of puberty, but even then, the specific age cannot be determined. In cases where the DNA has come from a body or body parts (teeth, bone, etc) the age can be generalized as to whether the remains come from an adult male or female.
The age of a known donor can be determined because the donor is, well, KNOWN, not because of specific markers in the DNA itself but simply because you know who it was.
I agree with Holdon- the donor would have had to have touched other things between a previous victim and JB. Unless the previous victim was right next to JB and the abuse occurred immediately before, and we know that wasn't the case. Even assuming latex gloves were worn driving or walking to the house, other surfaces would have to be touched between victims. We can also assume that the donor's fingers were not covered by a glove, or there would be no "touch DNA". If the skin cells came from a previous victim and were on the surfaces of a glove, as was suggested, then the donor is another victim and DEFINITELY not the killer and Lacy has caused this case irreparable harm. (she's done that anyway).
That is why it was so important NOT to clear anyone in this case and NOT to say the donor WAS the killer.
We know from the injuries that something penetrated her vagina at some point. The coroner said in his opinion it was a finger. But as I have said, it is only conjecture that the sexual activity had anything to do with her death. It may have, or or it may have been something that occurred unrelated to her death. This is particularly likely if PDI. Someone was abusing JB, and more than once. Not all her vaginal trauma was from the time of death. If PR knew of it and helped with the cover-up to protect that person, that still doesn't mean that the abuse led to her being killed, only that Patsy needed to prevent the abuse and the abuser from being discovered.
If it was JDI, JARDI then the abuse that occurred that night WAS likely what led to her death, because if she screamed during it and was bashed to silence her, and would explain the acute injuries (from that night) AND the previous injuries ("this was a game that was played before"). It also explains the blood that was wiped from her thighs and pubic area.
I am RDI, or at least R KNOWS WHO DI.
I can't rule out any R as being the one who inserted the broken paintbrush. But I can also imagine the bleeding being caused by douching, the scream resulting from that, and whatever bashed her skull happening then.
What is so frustrating in this case is there are three distinct RDI possibilities and each one requires the cooperation of the parents in covering it up.
 
This just crossed my mind....maybe it sounds silly but here it goes....

Let's say there is an intruder who wore gloves and touched another victim before touching JB with the same gloves on.....is such a transfer possible?And then our DNA is not the killer's but it belongs to another victim?

I know our dna is male but that doesn't mean it can't be a male victim we're talking about.We can't establish the age of the owner,or?Maybe he has been abusing a young boy before.

Transfer of DNA is seen with variable degrees of efficiency in each of the two types of transfer experiments conducted. In most cases the transferred DNA was a lower concentration than the DNA of the individual to whom it was transferred, however, this was not observed in all instances.
In the experiments involving a kiss to the face, DNA or cells containing DNA were transferred b a kiss to an individual’s face and then to a glove in all of the experiments fun in this study.
In the experiments involving transfer of DNA via a towel, DNA or cells containing DNA were transferred to a towel, then to an individual’s face and then to a glove in all experiments with one of the towels and in none of the experiments with the other towel. In each of these sets of experiments the towel was exposed to the individuals DNA from only one face washing and drying. Larger quantities of DNA would be expected to be deposited on the towel from multiple uses of the towel.
http://www.bioforensics.com/conference04/Transfer/Taylor&Johnson%20Study.pdf
 
As long as it doesn't involve JBR mixed up in two unrelated sexual encounters in one day, it'll be good.

HOTYH, not only did I expect that I wouldn't make a dent, but I'm starting to take it personally.

That said, the earlier incident need not necessarily have been sexual in nature. It could have been a really mean prank.
 
Hi SD.

It could have been a really mean prank - SD

How so? :waitasec:
 

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