Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Ian Moone]

If the person you are referring to Ian Moone is who you say it is, why wasn't he fronted up to the inquest ?

Because he claims to be the unidentified man in the Jane Rimmer CCTV clip & that's not related to Sarah McMahon's Coroners inquest?

I cannot vouch for the veracity of the mans claims. All I could and did do, was forward his claims verbatim to WAPOL and let them do whatever they wish to do or not do with the info.

That's where my responsibility stops.

But this is not related to Iona.

My belief is that the KEY to resolving CSK is Iona.

Other discussions are just diversion away from the main event in my opinion. Perhaps that's even deliberate in some cases = who knows?

I've provided the links to Iona... enough links to make a pretty good case (compared to all the other delirium about Police not having DNA and JM etc).

The links to Iona are undeniable.

6 or 7 links being "co-incidence" just doesn't wash with me.

Old boss of mine when I was a lad used to say - "where there's smoke there's fire" & "40,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong!"

6 or 7 links to Iona is "too many" for me to dismiss or claim co-incidence.

Maybe there are more?

The vehicle - for e.g. - did Iona ever have one such registered to them in 1995/6/7/8 ?

If so - who had access to drive it (The priest or gardener)?

Whats the significance of Pamela Lawrence's Murder in 1994?

Julie Cutler / Iona Girl / 1988
Pamela Lawrence 1994
Sarah Spiers / Iona Girl / 1996
Ciara Glennon / Iona Girl / 1997
Lorrin Whitehead / Iona Girl / 2013

Only that Pamela Lawrences murder date fits within the time frame for the Iona Girls!.

There's some kind of possible linkage between jewelry from her shop - that Macro Det Inspector Caphorn is on record as seeming to think was possibly significant in some way?.

Lawrences accused killer Mallard also has a link to Iona via the stolen Iona church Chalice, which again is on the public record.

Why does this one school have so many potential links to murders in and around that area at the same period of time?

If WAPOL can take DNA from Weygers by force to eliminate him, why wouldn't they also do so for ANY male employees of Iona at the time of these crimes - whether the priest, gardener or maybe a male phys ed teacher - whatever - just DNA test them all to rule out the possibility!

It was basically an all girls school run by nuns - there were very FEW males employed at the school - and I am guessing at priest & gardener - surely WAPOL would have access to school records for the period with warrant?

To ME - it seems logical to eliminate the possibility is all (after 20+ years its not unreasonable IMHO).

Also the vehicle records of the school / church should be compared for the commodore wagon, again even if ONLY to rule out the possibility!.

 

[Laymaker]

DNA
Police obtained a warrant and took Weygers DNA by force. Would a WA judge issue such a warrant if there was no dna from the crime to compare this to?

Also, DNA wouldn't have had to survive the conditions of the CSK bodies to be connected. A rope or car fiber from the Karrakatta scene could have been matched to a fiber from a CSK scene and then the DNA from Karrakatta, if it existed, would have been associable.

That being said, it could be just PARTIAL DNA and unable to definitively eliminate all POIs, so this doesn't mean we have to assume that all known POIs are eliminated.


CSK connection to victims (Iona, law, business, priesthood, bouncer, etc)
The CSK did not know the victims, and if he coincidentally knew or was connected to one then this aspect of the targeting was not planned. He was clearly targeting vulnerable, dislocated girls leaving the night scene in Claremont.

Here are my earlier thoughts on this point:

1A. CSK did not choose his targets ahead of time. He had no way of knowing that those particular girls would go to those particular venues on those nights since the girls did not give notice to any single linked source. He also had no way of knowing that those particular girls would end up in vulnerable positions by separating from their groups or hailing rides. Therefore he would have needed to make many visits to the abduction zone, and sometimes he would have aborted because he wouldn't have found a target who was vulnerable and met his basic target profile on every occasion. A taxi affords this opportunity.

Any poster suggesting an Iona link doesn't understand that the CSK could not possibly have been intentionally targeting these three particular girls for more than 10 minutes before their abduction.

The connections of the girls to Iona falls under what is called the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and is simply bad data mining. Take a baseball game for example. If you track only two pieces of data about each championship game (e.g. Was it cold or hot weather, and did the home team win or lose) then after four championships you will be able to say something like "75% of the time the home team has won if the weather was cold". But in fact the weather may not have anything to do with the odds of the home team winning... Somebody has to win, and the weather has to be hot or cold. If you track 100 pieces of data about each game you will be able to say something really fun because at least 10% of those pieces will, by pure chance, happen to have a 100% correlation with the wins. So you might be able to say "the home team wins 100% of the time when the championship if played on an even-numbered year" even though these obviously aren't causative! This applies to the "Iona connection" perfectly. If you look into 1000 different details of the girls lives they will match up on many based on pure chance. Most of these correlations are completely within the statistical likelihood and the correlation means nothing. Obviously some are important -- it's no accident that they were all female. I will stop this explanation now as it is already too patronizing to most of the readership here.

JM and LW and "ruled out" suspects
I think it's fine to discuss any suspect even if they've been "ruled out" or a few details are less than perfect. This includes JM and LW. The users on this board are very responsible about not posting names so it's not as though anything here is searchable -- therefore, how does it harm the POI? But even more importantly, the police haven't released 100% of their information about this case. It's been 20 years and this is unsolved. They can not be taken at their word for anything and should be ashamed for continuing such a broken strategy. Until they are audited by a trusted third party we cannot take them at their word that any suspect is cleared even if we see this on official letterhead. I'm not suggesting that police corruption or police involvement in the crimes plays any role in this -- I'm entirely of the opinion that this is the result of ego, arrogance, ignorance, stupidity and politics within WAPOL.

Eravelly
Wasn't he a commercial pilot? Why would WAPOL have had to wait this long to nab him? Surely he's landed in Australia or a friendly country before now? I'm somewhat interested in responses to this because I'm speculating. This question isn't rhetorical.

Papertrail/JM
Papertrail, I'm not suggesting that you know this person because I have no idea if you do. But I have a question -- JM has been winning martial art championships since age 22 according to a statement by Bart that you didn't contest... And he would have been around 35 versus the 34 age we were looking for based on the CIA documentary... So he would probably know who the documentary is actually referring to right? He would probably know other martial arts practitioners that were only a year younger then him (34 vs 35) and in the same area of the same midsized city, right? (1) do you agree with this and (2) do you have any access to possibly ask him? Again, I'm not a conspiracy-minded person so if you say you don't know him at all, I will not push any further or doubt your word. You've been quite straightforward on many subjects and I respect you generally.

 

[88mph]

Because he claims to be the unidentified man in the Jane Rimmer CCTV clip & that's not related to Sarah McMahon's Coroners inquest?

I cannot vouch for the veracity of the mans claims. All I could and did do, was forward his claims verbatim to WAPOL and let them do whatever they wish to do or not do with the info.

That's where my responsibility stops.

But this is not related to Iona.

My belief is that the KEY to resolving CSK is Iona.

Other discussions are just diversion away from the main event in my opinion. Perhaps that's even deliberate in some cases = who knows?

I've provided the links to Iona... enough links to make a pretty good case (compared to all the other delirium about Police not having DNA and JM etc).

The links to Iona are undeniable.

6 or 7 links being "co-incidence" just doesn't wash with me.

Old boss of mine when I was a lad used to say - "where there's smoke there's fire" & "40,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong!"

6 or 7 links to Iona is "too many" for me to dismiss or claim co-incidence.

Maybe there are more?

The vehicle - for e.g. - did Iona ever have one such registered to them in 1995/6/7/8 ?

If so - who had access to drive it (The priest or gardener)?

Whats the significance of Pamela Lawrence's Murder in 1994?

Julie Cutler / Iona Girl / 1988
Pamela Lawrence 1994
Sarah Spiers / Iona Girl / 1996
Ciara Glennon / Iona Girl / 1997
Lorrin Whitehead / Iona Girl / 2013

Only that Pamela Lawrences murder date fits within the time frame for the Iona Girls!.

There's some kind of possible linkage between jewelry from her shop - that Macro Det Inspector Caphorn is on record as seeming to think was possibly significant in some way?.

Lawrences accused killer Mallard also has a link to Iona via the stolen Iona church Chalice, which again is on the public record.

Why does this one school have so many potential links to murders in and around that area at the same period of time?

If WAPOL can take DNA from Weygers by force to eliminate him, why wouldn't they also do so for ANY male employees of Iona at the time of these crimes - whether the priest, gardener or maybe a male phys ed teacher - whatever - just DNA test them all to rule out the possibility!

It was basically an all girls school run by nuns - there were very FEW males employed at the school - and I am guessing at priest & gardener - surely WAPOL would have access to school records for the period with warrant?

To ME - it seems logical to eliminate the possibility is all (after 20+ years its not unreasonable IMHO).

Also the vehicle records of the school / church should be compared for the commodore wagon, again even if ONLY to rule out the possibility!.

The only challenge to your Iona theory would be the failed abduction attempts.

Do you believe that the gardener/priest (or whoever) would have a 100% strike rate? Impossible.

I know girls who were at Iona during the 90's and they were typical teenage gossip queens - and still are. If they were approached by an Iona staff member or the Iona staff member was spotted lurking in Claremont, the rumour mill would have been in overdrive. As it was, their rumour mill long accused the gardener but of course they had zero reasoning for this (other than your theory).

You're also suggesting that the CSK stalked and picked each victim as he knew them through Iona - which means he would have had follow them all night and know all of their movements. This in my opinion is fanciful.

 

[J35]

The vehicle - for e.g. - did Iona ever have one such registered to them in 1995/6/7/8 ?

If so - who had access to drive it (The priest or gardener)?

This is a question that is unlikely to be answered by websluething- unless someone one here has access to Dept. of Transport- Licensing records or the police go on record stating they have thoroughly investigated Iona.

This goes for most aspects raised on this forum- only police can investigate/determine/can access/know the answer.

 

[J35]

That being said, it could be just PARTIAL DNA and unable to definitively eliminate all POIs, so this doesn't mean we have to assume that all known POIs are eliminated.

I have shown in post #459 on page 31 how a DNA profile can be excluded when you have a partial DNA profile:
I agree that we are assuming the the 'mainstream' POI's have been eliminated purely based on Newspaper reports in mid Jan.

How can they link 'dna found on CG' to karra but be unable to 'rule out' all suspects? I attempt to explain:

Here is a very overly simplified dna profile comparison looking at 12 alleles at 6 STR loci, where ** indicates suspect sample left on CG.

Loci. A. B. C. D. E. F
Poi1 (1,2) (2,5) (3,4) (4,7) (5,6) (6,7)
Poi2 (3,4) (4,5) (5,9) (6,8) (8,9) (9,9)
CG** (3,4) (4,5) (5,6) (6,7) (?,?) (?,?)
Karra (3,4) (4,5) (5,6) (6,7) (8,4) (9,3)

Poi1 can be excluded as only 1 allele matches.

Poi2 can not be excluded as 6/8 alleles match the partial profile from CG**

Karra profile is consistent with the CG** profile at the known loci (8/8 match)- can not be excluded- possible forensic link depending on population allele frequencies - determine probability of two unrelated people sharing the same profile- is it 'significant'?

Poi2 is a partial match to Karra (8/12) - can not be excluded- may be due to a familial link- determine probability

P.s we assume all males in example

In the USA, A full dna profile consists of 13 loci (STRs) or 26 alleles, with 15 or more alleles being cause for familial DNA testing.​

 

[Laymaker]

Yes J35, I read that post and thought it was a great contribution. That's why I disclaimed the idea that they could rule out all POIs with partial DNA evidence, even if they could rule out some.

I don't think we have any disagreement on this.

 

[Parkie]

Maybe she was the 'lure' for the girls? Maybe this is the female that some have suspected was in the vehicle to help lure the girls in, or make the interaction seem more comfortable before the attack occured.

If the three teenagers are to believed and they definitely did see Ciara Glennon speaking to someone in a white commodore then it would explain quite literally why she felt so comfortable leaning down towards the vehicle speaking to someone, would also explain the finger to the boys too because she probably felt comfortable having knew them..

I could only say the girls werent specifically individually targetted in this scenario by someone stalking them, but opportunist by someone local who knew regulars to these night spots were from the school/college, this would be an advantage when luring 'some' of the victims.

Maybe a 'blitz' attack was required for others who werent able to be lured, some escaped, one was unlucky enough to be raped, the other killed, despite no Iona! END Quote; Who knows; SS wound have not known of a possible CSK being there. Cops did not bother to link cases, dumb arses! SS may have had a few. She was after a fella, for sure. JR certainly & would have not thought a sk was in the vicinity yet was wary. She would never have thought he was on the footpath and or pub. JR would have thought the SK was a drive by. And yet CG knew but was overseas beforehand. So she did not suspect anything.

 

[Parkie]

..SG...

 

[elastic]

This man seems to pop up a fair bit, including the CSK case I am told:

http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/20051112/news/001.shtml

Two men in the hot seat over the disappearance of Susan Christie faced each other across a tense courtroom on Wednesday.

In the witness box was a Darlington doctor, and sitting a few metres away in the dock was Mrs Christie’s ex-husband Rory Christie (36), who is facing trial for her murder in Daglish in November 2001.

Dr Andrew Dunn (51) sometimes became heated as he answered questions from Mr Christie’s lawyer, Tom Percy QC.

Dr Dunn was questioned vigorously by Mr Percy about two missing women — Susan Christie and a former patient of Dr Dunn, missing Parkerville woman Sarah McMahon (20).

Ms McMahon was last seen five years ago in Claremont and her car was found at Swan Districts Hospital in Midland.

Dr Dunn said he knew the McMahon family as patients and they had bought his Parkerville house.

He had treated Sarah about six times, including when she fell from a horse.

He had returned once to the house and slept in it after it was re-sold

Now it looks to have been removed so this is from a quote, cannot prove if the contents have been altered now because of the broken link.

 

[Parkie]

I believe SMM`s car was very close to where she is. How do you like that one Elastic..?

 

[elastic]

I believe SMM`s car was very close to where she is. How do you like that one Elastic..?

Why the need to be so Cryptic, Why not just reveal your thoughts and tell us where you think she is, Her car was found at the Hospital so do you think she was dumped there? or somewhere near the hospital like buried at the Reg Bond Reserve, or somewhere near Talbot rd bushland conservation. I assume she would have to be burried but you never know, If she was around that area then you would think she would have to be buried in a reserve or the marsh lands around the river, otherwise she would have been found no doubt, or by close do you mean literally miles away which I couldn't call close but whatever.

You could just be straight and honest but you chose to be cryptic, portray yourself as a loon, and connect yourself with numerous murder/missing person/rape cases, it is very odd, especially when we know the shady characters you hang out with.

 

[elastic]

I believe SMM`s car was very close to where she is. How do you like that one Elastic..?

Is there anything else you can share with us that is unique with either the McMahon/Morey cases, or the CSK case? It would be interesting for you to share your thoughts without the need for the incoherent ranting that consumes your posts.

 

[Parkie]

Sorry Elastic. Mr M used to like being driven to parks by working girls. I don`t rant, I use my head. But in reality I don`t know more than you. That is being honest. But if I go by an area that spooks me then I fret somewhat. I still do.. & it does. I fret. Keep you posted as I will go there asap. It may actually not be RSVP. See how it goes..

 

[elastic]

The biggest problem I can see is getting DNA after 19 days from CG and fibre trace from JR after 56 days.

Possible but odds against. I hope they have DNA but have serious doubts over recent media reports.

I posted links earlier to articles saying that WAPOL had contacted the very best LCN Specialist from the UK to analyse the DNA which I assume means they have a partial DNA profile they are working on, its more than likely a situation similar to what J35 said regarding the match of DNA.

I assume you would not require the very best, also known as the 'god father' of LCN DNA testing if you have a complete profile. I assume they considered the profile useless for many many years until the Karrakatta match (Which seems unbelievable to be perfectly honest, how could you have not compared the DNA to all the sex attacks in Claremont ?!??!) Now we have advances of DNA making the profile better and better to work with, but maybe not complete enough for a prosecution, without more hard evidence to back the DNA up. Ofcourse if the perpetrator is in Jail there is no rush to convict him because you wouldn't want the murderer to serve any concurrent sentences (Which is a loop hole in our system)

 

[Parkie]

Type misspelling re her name but that is cool. Twas a long time ago.

 

[Parkie]

Why the need to be so Cryptic, Why not just reveal your thoughts and tell us where you think she is, Her car was found at the Hospital so do you think she was dumped there? or somewhere near the hospital like buried at the Reg Bond Reserve, or somewhere near Talbot rd bushland conservation. I assume she would have to be burried but you never know, If she was around that area then you would think she would have to be buried in a reserve or the marsh lands around the river, otherwise she would have been found no doubt, or by close do you mean literally miles away which I couldn't call close but whatever.

You could just be straight and honest but you chose to be cryptic, portray yourself as a loon, and connect yourself with numerous murder/missing person/rape cases, it is very odd, especially when we know the shady characters you hang out with.

In between eye treatments I will go have a peek. The green green grass of home movie; DM.

 

[CSK?]

I had read before that AB was found with Sarah's diary, but this was only on a blog, a google search can't find anything about it, surely such a significant find in an out standing murder case would be public news.

I personally feel AB aka , aka parkie is just one giant troll making up stories for no other reason than being an attention *advertiser censored*. Is there proof (other than his stories) that he lived at the addresses he claimed, the he actually had Sarah's diary, that he or his brother knew Morey? or proof of anything he has ever said? or has this all just come from him and his hundred online alias's.

No idea why he would go to such lengths to make himself appear guilty other than the dude is sick in the head, lonely and has no other way to feel wanted in life.

he is Pathetic!

 

[CSK?]

Ian Moone, I think the Iona link is very worthy of discussion, but when you start creating entire scenario's based from this link the whole thing starts to look a little like a bad movie plot and I think the 'crazy' factor puts a lot of people off of discussing it.

The rate of murder for Iona alumni does far exceed the standard rate of murder of the general population, a reasonable explanation for this is the geographic area of the CSK's hunting ground.

It is possible that the killer had a link to Iona, and this enabled him to make these girls feel comfortable enough around him to afford the opportunity to attack them, But I wouldn't go as far as inventing a scenario based on bribery and cover up, it really does distract from the initial point of an Iona linkage.



BTW! Laymaker needs to be more active, I really enjoy your posts!

 

[Elwood_1]

The only challenge to your Iona theory would be the failed abduction attempts.

Do you believe that the gardener/priest (or whoever) would have a 100% strike rate? Impossible.

I know girls who were at Iona during the 90's and they were typical teenage gossip queens - and still are. If they were approached by an Iona staff member or the Iona staff member was spotted lurking in Claremont, the rumour mill would have been in overdrive. As it was, their rumour mill long accused the gardener but of course they had zero reasoning for this (other than your theory).

You're also suggesting that the CSK stalked and picked each victim as he knew them through Iona - which means he would have had follow them all night and know all of their movements. This in my opinion is fanciful.

What if there were no failed attempts. In the Post article that went up on here a couple of days ago it said SS got into a taxi with another woman and a man in it, and someone said that it was common for people to share taxis in the area at that time. What if they traveled as a triple, (driver, female bait, and catcher) and only made their move once they were absolutely certain of making a catch. That way there would be no attempts, only successes. Maybe many girls traveled with them without knowing they were targets, but for whatever reason the three decided not to make their move at the last minute. Maybe they had specific requirements, and if you didn't fit the mould you weren't chosen.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I posted links earlier to articles saying that WAPOL had contacted the very best LCN Specialist from the UK to analyse the DNA which I assume means they have a partial DNA profile they are working on, its more than likely a situation similar to what J35 said regarding the match of DNA.

I assume you would not require the very best, also known as the 'god father' of LCN DNA testing if you have a complete profile. I assume they considered the profile useless for many many years until the Karrakatta match (Which seems unbelievable to be perfectly honest, how could you have not compared the DNA to all the sex attacks in Claremont ?!??!) Now we have advances of DNA making the profile better and better to work with, but maybe not complete enough for a prosecution, without more hard evidence to back the DNA up. Ofcourse if the perpetrator is in Jail there is no rush to convict him because you wouldn't want the murderer to serve any concurrent sentences (Which is a loop hole in our system)

I've read multiple articles referring to DNA specialists so have always assumed they trying to get a profile. How much of a profile they have now is anyone's guess.

Are you able to repost those articles by any chance? BC reported that Macro got DNA in 2008 from memory. I wonder if they were bringing in the DNA expert before or after? If after then they're still trying to get a larger profile. If before, maybe this was what got them the DNA profile that BC claims Macro have got.