Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #6

[Bartholemeus]

Looking at that, it looks like the killer might just have taken the most convenient routes to get away from Claremont to a secluded spot. The fact that one goes north and another south probably means he followed the freeway in Perth which goes only two directions (you guessed it, north and south).

That's a given as to why he went north and south. But there's still a lot of area about the same distance out he could have dumped at.

 

[Nugget77]

That's a given as to why he went north and south. But there's still a lot of area about the same distance out he could have dumped at.

Cool. Thanks for your patience with my questions. They probably seem a little basic but just trying to make my way through the massive amount of information (and disinformation) involved.

 

[88mph]

That would mean that Ciara was kept overnight, then taken away next day.

I think they drove up Stirling highway and headed north or south to the respective positions via Freeway on ramp in the city which lead them in the corresponding directions north south with no traffic lights for some way. With a taxi driving through the city would essentially bury them in hundreds of other taxis, leaving everyone none the wiser.

Even coast road for that matter. They hit the roads and head up or down. Or they run the victims to the nearest yacht club, put them on a sail boat and sailed up and down the coast totally away from anyone held without scrutiny. Then when the heat died, they would put the body in a car and take the bodies from the nearest anchor point to the prospective sites.

Police said some were killed in short time, they didn't say they were dumped in short time. Bodies were discovered some time later. Both sites are coastal.

I think both points were not far from the prospective freeway points of planning.

So you'd take a body out to sea, then bring it back??

Are you actually serious?

 

[crabstick]

So there is nothing to say the bodies were dumped the same night they were abducted. Anyone have evidence that the bodies were dumped the same night? That would be a presumption.

Both body sites are about 1.4 km from the main arterial of existing or future freeway. So someone drove south, then turned left, dumped a body. Someone drove north turned left, dumped a body which miraculously create a meridian through the Claremont hotel.

Anyone have a Perth road map image in 1996?

In todays more efficient road system of todays road design, say at midnight, best time from Bayview to Pippidinny is 1 hour 2 minutes; from Bayview to Woollcoot (Jane) 58 minutes.

So you would presume with the roads in the day not being as efficient, it may take considerably longer.

 

[Bartholemeus]

So there is nothing to say the bodies were dumped the same night they were abducted. Anyone have evidence that the bodies were dumped the same night? That would be a presumption.

Police have stated they believe the girls were killed nearby and soon after abduction and dumped on the same night.

Of course it's possible the girls were kept overnight and dumped the next night but it's unlikely.

Possible explanations for the brickie discrepancy;

1. The CSK dumped CG on the next night
2. He got his days mixed up and he saw it on the Saturday morning (he did state he knew it was a Sunday because he had a job that was on every Sunday that he got up at 4am for)
3. He's somehow mistaken
4. He's lying (it's not like that doesn't happen much)

 

[crabstick]

Bart: "Police have stated they believe the girls were killed nearby and soon after abduction and dumped on the same night."

Do you have a reference please Bart for they were both dumped the same night? I do believe I read, police believe at least one the victims were killed not long after.

There is two yacht clubs within 3 minutes of the abduction points. By the time the third abduction came around, you would think the roads would be hot with police, and cameras. Yeah, sure, Im not discounting the possibility the victims were taken to a boat off the streets in three minutes. Police presence on the water was essentially non existent in the day. It would be a free run with not a cop in sight. Victim gone in three minutes.

One cleared POI had 46 houses apparently. Thats a lot of choice.

Someone may have even had access to a house that was on the river, with a finger jetty at the rivers edge.

 

[Bartholemeus]

So you'd take a body out to sea, then bring it back??

Are you actually serious?

I'm waiting for Crabstick to explain how the CSK got CG off the boat near Eglington and onto land and how he then got her from there to the dump site.

Helicopter obviously.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Bart: "Police have stated they believe the girls were killed nearby and soon after abduction and dumped on the same night."

Do you have a reference please Bart for they were both dumped the same night? I do believe I read, police believe at least one the victims were killed not long after.

Nope, that just my recollection. Could be wrong. You might want to watch the CIA episode - it could be in there.

There is two yacht clubs within 3 minutes of the abduction points. By the time the third abduction came around, you would think the roads would be hot with police, and cameras. Yeah, sure, Im not discounting the possibility the victims were taken to a boat off the streets in three minutes. Police presence on the water was essentially non existent in the day. It would be a free run with not a cop in sight. Victim gone in three minutes.

It wasn't discovered that the victims had been abducted until the next day.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Post by Peter Kurten

I have been told that it is a general consensus by many external and internal profilers, based on the facts of the investigation, that the circumstances in which the crimes were carried out led the offender to become psychologically conflicted immediately afterward. I've also been told that this became a paramount profiling approach when filtering information that was coming into the Task force.

What circumstances to do with the crimes led them to believe this I'm not sure, but I've been told of this by more than one person close to the case at the time.



Thanks Peter.
Questions for Peter and others ~
1.What is your interpretation of “Psychologically Conflicted”
2. Any thoughts on why police believe the girls were killed nearby? (as opposed to being closer to dump sites)

 

[CSK?]

I've put a lot of time into researching the convicted rapist Steven Ainsworth as his rapes in Adelaide were almost identical to rapes/assaults in Claremont before and after the known CSK victims. He is currently serving a sentence here in Adelaide for rapes he committed in the mid to late 80's, he moved to Perth in 1994 and worked as a carpenter. he moved back to Adelaide in 1998 and then back to Perth in 2000, He ended up being linked by DNA to the 1980's rapes and extradited back to Adelaide. While it is possible he is the CSK it is probably unlikely BUT, I'd bet my right testicle the man is responsible for a portion of the attacks in and around Claremont from 1994 -1998 there are just way too many coincidences between those attacks and his rape/assaults here in Adelaide (abducting from known pubs/nightclubs, bashing heads into walls, using a brick to bash 1 victim and then raping them in lane ways). The biggest factor for me ruling him out is the possibility of police having DNA or a partial DNA sample from CG and the KK rape victim so one would assume if this was correct then of course Steven Ainsworth would have been checked.

In regards to how these girls were dumped, I understand common sense would dictate to us if in the same position of dumping a body that travelling at night via the path of least resistance would be your best option for dumping a body, but some people discuss this like the police were pulling over any and every vehicle they seen. there are several cases of serial killers dumping the body during day time, hell, Joel Ripkin even drove around and filled up gas with one of his deceased victims propped up in the front passenger seat. I think dumping on a Sunday morning would be very plausible, after all the effort of abducting e.t.c one would certainly want to take their time and "enjoy the moment" you have to remember these serial killers have a sense of self importance and feel like they won't be caught because they are simply smarter than the police, so driving around with a body and or dumping during daylight hours wouldn't be too far fetched for them unless they suffer super paranoia.

I too would love to know why the police think the women were killed shortly after abduction, certainly a body exposed to the elements for weeks and months could not be used to pinpoint the time of death to the nearest 12 hours, a day or two I'd believe but not a matter of hours. And it's never been common knowledge that police found the "kill" site so I think the police are just guessing that fact based on a lack of evidence at the dump site.

As with the boat/yacht theory, if you abducted someone or managed to get a body on board a boat/yacht/ship I will give you one guess where that body is getting dumped, and here is a clue, it won't be on land whatsoever.

According to FBI there would be a 90% chance the CSK has been caught for either assault/rape/abduction or murder following the Claremont killings, I've been using MAKrg to try and find matches, but this is limited to sexual offenders, does anyone know of a similar database that lists in general, violent crimes?

 

[crabstick]

People are presuming they just dumped the bodies. But the last post just explains how they think they are smarter than the police. Megalomania. So there is no reason why they just didn't sail up to Two Rocks marina, and drove down, or sail down to Mangles bay to meet a car at any point and place the bodies so the line between intersected the Claremont hotel.
Why dump the bodies at sea, when you can tease police, because you are smarter than the cops right? right?

If the bodies werent coastal I could discount it, but the bodies are relatively coastal to places of safe anchorage, and quiet pick up points.

No one has evidence the bodies were placed at the discovered sites the same night.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Post by Peter Kurten

I have been told that it is a general consensus by many external and internal profilers, based on the facts of the investigation, that the circumstances in which the crimes were carried out led the offender to become psychologically conflicted immediately afterward. I've also been told that this became a paramount profiling approach when filtering information that was coming into the Task force.

What circumstances to do with the crimes led them to believe this I'm not sure, but I've been told of this by more than one person close to the case at the time.



Thanks Peter.
Questions for Peter and others ~
1.What is your interpretation of “Psychologically Conflicted”
2. Any thoughts on why police believe the girls were killed nearby? (as opposed to being closer to dump sites)

I was told the majority of the profilers came to a consensus that:

A. It was very likely the offender was remorseful immediately after the murders.
B. It was very likely that the offender became anxious upon hearing news of the bodys' discoveries.
C. Something at the crime scene led profilers to this conclusion. The amount of time between murders may have contributed to this finding.

I can't give you any solid information for point 2. My best guess is that, because the victims received significant injuries and appear to have put up a struggle, the offender would not have been able to confidently travel far with them in the vehicle.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

I was told the majority of the profilers came to a consensus that:

A. It was very likely the offender was remorseful immediately after the murders.
B. It was very likely that the offender became anxious upon hearing news of the bodys' discoveries.
C. Something at the crime scene led profilers to this conclusion. The amount of time between murders may have contributed to this finding.

I can't give you any solid information for point 2. My best guess is that, because the victims received significant injuries and appear to have put up a struggle, the offender would not have been able to confidently travel far with them in the vehicle.

Thanks for that insight Peter.
Regarding A. More likely his artificial courage (stimulants) had worn off and he was now fully cognizant of the risk of detection. I'd bet CSK?'s left testicle on that!
It didn't stop him from killing again.

 

[phantman]

How exact are we talking in terms of 180degrees? Are we talking to the nearest metre? Or within a few km?

They are placed exactly, 180 degrees apart. No margin for error here.

 

[phantman]

If you look at the aerial photos of the two sites where Jane and Ciara were found, you will notice that they were both unsealed roads. They were both sealed shortly after. So, this suggests that whoever killed these girls and dumped them knew that the roads were about to be sealed and that the bodies would be found, since they were laid out on the ground covered with foliage, rather than buried. I have previously written, on other blogs, of the line between Jane and Ciara and how it runs through the corner of St Quentin Ave and Bayview Ave. So it can definitely be stated that the killer researched these locations prior to using them. So, who would know about these plans for the road sealing? Surveyors leap to my mind first, since the killer laid the girls in specific locations EXACTLY 180 degrees to each other. Could the killer be a Surveyor who has been contracted either by the State Govt or Local Government? A Surveyor could work out these locations in his sleep. I wonder if there are any Surveyors Bench Marks near these locations.

Others who might know about the roads could be contractors delivering material, Council planning managers, Town Planners.

Something else to mull over. If you extend the line in both directions, you will find that as it runs south, it crosses through the centre of Collie where Lisa Mott disappeared in Oct 1980 and it also passes very close to Lake Navarino where Annette Deverall was found. She disappeared 29 days before Lisa Mott from Mandurah. Extend the line north and it finishes at a point south of Exmouth intersecting the Tropic of Capricorn.

Also each dumping site was, using the UTM measurements, near a grid line. The grid line for Jane is on Millar road, so rather than dump her in an open area, she was dumped on Woolcoot Rd near a creek. But that spot is still in the actual line between the sites. The same for Pippidinie Rd. Here also the grid line is on the road, so Ciara was dumped in the bush nearby, but still on the line between her and Jane. So with that sort of data, we can draw a profile of where to look for Sarah.

First it must be on a road with a grid line. Then it must be in a spot where the line runs through Bayview. It must also be in an isolated or secluded area. Possibly within an hours drive of Claremont. The cops carried out a search at the Spectacles in their search for Sarah. This area is also on a grid line between Thomas Rd and Anketell Rd, Mandogalup.

In The West, when Ciara was found, the reporter mentioned that her body was found in an area similar to her surname, the same as Jane was. I can put Glennon alongside Eglington, but I can't see where Jane Rimmer fits in the general area where she was found.

More to follow.

 

[Bartholemeus]

People are presuming they just dumped the bodies. But the last post just explains how they think they are smarter than the police. Megalomania. So there is no reason why they just didn't sail up to Two Rocks marina, and drove down, or sail down to Mangles bay to meet a car at any point and place the bodies so the line between intersected the Claremont hotel.
Why dump the bodies at sea, when you can tease police, because you are smarter than the cops right? right?

If the bodies werent coastal I could discount it, but the bodies are relatively coastal to places of safe anchorage, and quiet pick up points.

No one has evidence the bodies were placed at the discovered sites the same night.

Sorry, but the idea the bodies were transported in a boat is absurd. Can we move on from this please.

 

[Bartholemeus]

[/I]

Thanks Peter.
Questions for Peter and others ~
1.What is your interpretation of “Psychologically Conflicted”
2. Any thoughts on why police believe the girls were killed nearby? (as opposed to being closer to dump sites)

1. My guess is that the CSK is first and foremost a rapist and the murders are more about decreasing chance of detection. So "psychologically conflicted" could mean the killer struggled with the whole killing thing and maybe developed some empathy with the families. Maybe it was the actually killing itself, maybe it was empathy to the victims and their families, or maybe he just thought to himself "that's a hell of an ordeal just to get a root".

2. I think 2 reasons;

a. Control. Assuming he wants them alive for whatever he does to them, it would be very hard to control them safely in a car over long distances
b. His killing field. He probably had a preferred spot to take them, do his thing and then kill them. He probably felt familiar and at low risk.

Also maybe the fibres. I think they claimed they felt they were killed locally before they allegedly recovered the fibres but maybe that's incorrect and the fibres gave them an indication JR may have travelled in a position for a long period where she was likely to be deceased. Tenuous but you never know.

 

[crabstick]

The idea that a fake taxi down to the two very nearby yacht clubs or homes is far from absurd. Ill make a map from Sarahs abduction point to the two yacht clubs. I guess knowing the area in 1997 makes it sound very plausible.
But I like your shot at rail road a theory without any substantiation to back it up. It was a nice try. Its a lovely presumption.

Im not going to push the topic, as long no one provocates continued discussion, but to call it absurd smells of someone trying to put people off a trail.

Gone in three minutes, disappeared. A yacht club with poor lighting in 1996, shut at 12, but gates open to boaties. One example.

5 minutes

Sorry, but the idea the bodies were transported in a boat is absurd. Can we move on from this please.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The idea that a fake taxi down to the two very nearby yacht clubs or homes is far from absurd. Ill make a map from Sarahs abduction point to the two yacht clubs. I guess knowing the area in 1997 makes it sound very plausible.

Are you saying you were familiar with the area in 1997? In what capacity?

But I like your shot at rail road a theory without any substantiation to back it up. It was a nice try. Its a lovely presumption.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[elastic]

May not have the locations exact.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Wnj8et1-oXNaO-U9lce0sdZm1eU

That line runs exactly through Wilkinson road and the serpentine river, an area i have long suspected SS may be dumped. A few of us on here have had suspicions that SS could be dumped somewhere off Karnup rd near the serpentine river. Looking at this map it intersects a dirt road which is Wilkinson rd which runs parallel with the serpentine river South of Telephone Lane (i dont neccesarily agree with the telstra link but intereting for those that do.

So i wonder if this part of the serpentine river has ever been searched and / or the vegetation around it.

If he is playing games in a straught line then maybe he initially put the victims in a straight line and one was never found (maybe because she is in water) so he placed the last victim in the opposite direction to ensure if she was found it maintained the same straight line.

Another possible location is all the thick vegetation around lake Walyungup or lake Cooloongup which is accessible off mandurah rd.

Hopefully the serpentine river was searched thoroughly. especially around the intersecting line