Australia Australia - Marianne Schmidt & Christine Sharrock, both 15, Wanda Beach, 11 Jan 1965

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by marlywings, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. marlywings

    marlywings Former Member

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    Suspect in Wanda beach murders dies in hospital: NSW police have his DNA for testing

    July 24, 2013

    DNA taken from child killer Derek Percy before his death is to be compared to a sample found at the crime scene of the Wanda beach murders.

    It was revealed last year that a DNA sample was taken from a blood smear found at the scene from the murders 47 years ago.

    "The sample is very old and degraded and a lot of work needs to be done by the lab,'' said Detective Lehman

    http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-dna-for-testing/story-fnii5s3x-1226684423142
     
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  3. STANDREID

    STANDREID A slacker when slacker wasn't cool

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    Thanks for that information. If they have crime scene DNA then why hasn't it been plotted already?

    It would seem to me that Percy must be innocent of these murders. If he knew he was dying and knew the DNA would show he did it then why not just admit it?
     
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  4. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    On January 11, 1965, Marianne Schmidt and Christine Sharrock were brutally murdered at Wanda beach, near Sydney. The case remains unsolved.

    The girls had taken the younger Schmidt children out to the beach for the day. Leaving the young ones to rest while they wandered into the sand hills, the girls did not return to collect them. Christine and Marianne were later found brutally murdered, stabbed and bludgeoned to death. While both girls had not been vaginally raped, there was semen left behind on the bodies. There's been various suspects and leads, but as yet no arrest for the crime.

    Wanda Beach Murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Here's a look at the case from Crime Investigation Australia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGqOD0Q9ec


    I strongly suspect the girls knew their killer, had met him on another occasion at the beach or earlier that day, and had planned to meet up with him as they set off into the hills without the younger children. Perhaps that who Christine was with when she went off her own prior to the murders. I also suspect the killer was young and not repulsive-looking, and may well have been the crab-fishing boy seen talking to them.


    What really strikes me is that while the murders were definitely sexual in nature, both girls were still virgins when they died. The frenzied stabbing looks then, like it may be an example of 'piquerism', where a killer substitutes a knife for his penis. He wants to rape (cutting away the clothing, etc), but cannot and the knife is used instead. As it seems the stabbing came -before- the clothing was torn away and semen was deposited on their bodies, I have the feeling the killer KNEW he couldn't rape in the usual way before he lured the girls out to the sand hills (which I think he did).

    I have to wonder if he had some sort of sexual deformity that left him too embarrassed to rape without rendering his victims dead/near death. Maybe he tried, or exposed himself, and the girls laughed at him... but I get the feeling he'd already been well and truly sexually humiliated/rejected prior to this crime and this was the killer's response to being attracted to the girls.

    I think he lured Christine out with a promise (made during the time she was off on her own earlier in the day) of alcohol (found in her system) or just charmed her into agreeing to meet, and this is why the girls made the little ones walk all that way before leaving them alone to continue in the 'wrong direction', into the hills. Having been a teenager myself long ago (heh) I recall going to greater lengths to spend a little time with a cute boy I met on holiday.

    I think this crime fits with a youthful offender, so that crab-fishing boy seems like a great suspect, to me.

    I also have to wonder if the killer hit Christine over the head first, then quickly attacked Marianne (cutting her throat, stabbing her repeatedly) and while this was happening Christine has come to and run off, screaming only to be hunted down, bludgeoned and dragged back to where he'd left Marianne.

    I wonder this because it'[d be hard for him to control both girls at once.

    Anyway, I have a lot of thoughts on this crime, I'd be glad to hear the thoughts/opinion of others.
     
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  5. STANDREID

    STANDREID A slacker when slacker wasn't cool

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    Certainly a bizarre, high risk and intriguing case. I have at #36 on my all time most interesting classic unsolved murder list.

    The "crab catcher" looks like a very good suspect with his knife and all but then you come up against the food and alcohol which throws everything off. Were there two unrelated weirdoes on the beach that day?
     
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  6. Winward1

    Winward1 Member

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    Interesting in that sexually motivated homicides are quite rare.
     
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  7. nadjatheresa

    nadjatheresa Well-Known Member

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  8. Winward1

    Winward1 Member

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    He bore more than a passing resemblance to Richard Speck.
     
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  9. ZaZara

    ZaZara Well-Known Member

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    One can hide stuff in the sand hills beforehand. What are you going to do with the crabs once you caught them?
     
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  10. Kell1

    Kell1 Verified law enforcement

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    They have shampoo for that ..=;)

    Anyway, overview of the case.

    -You have 2 victims killed in broad daylight at a populated beach however they were out of sight behind the dunes.

    -Both are stabbed one is beaten and stabbed

    -Killer brings, and takes weapon from scene

    -One assaulted, stabbed beaten then dragged, back to the body dump site

    -Both show signs of attempted sexual assault

    -Victims are killed where they are found

    -Bodies, buried to delay discovery

    -Post mortem indication of alcohol consumption by one of the girls .

    I watched the youtube video on the case , a few things stand out

    One of the girls brought food and drink of her own, which may possibly explain the origination of the alcohol, and possibly why the girls walked into the dunes, instead of walking down the beach back to their belongings.

    Perhaps they wanted to sneak a drink out of sight

    Another possibility is that the offender, offered alcohol to the victims, either by arranging to meet them somewhere in the dunes, or they happened upon someone who had it .

    I didn't see if the source of the alcohol, was ever discovered.

    An interesting fact is that the Killer brought the weapon to the beach, though the rest of the scene appears, to reflect a disorganized, offender type

    He brought a knife, but nothing to restrain a potential victim, nor was he able to carry out the rape of either girl, which to me indicates, at least to me that the rape wasn't planned.

    The attack appears to have been opportunistic, though there could've been some intermediate planning prior to the crime. Primarily if there was a prior arrangement to meet someone.


    Now, you have to assume, the killer brought the weapon, to the scene, for one of 3 reasons , 1) He planned on accosting a victim, or 2) he had it on his person for a legitimate reason 3) Or he was the type to carry a knife, for protection etc.. or as a macho thing

    The crime itself is extremely high risk for the offender, the victims themselves per lifestyle, were low risk, the only thing that elevated their risk, was that they decided to walk through the dunes, out of plain sight.

    For the offender to attempt to attempt to rape then kill then bury the victims there , I feel this offender was VERY comfortable in that location. He spent an inordinate amount of time there with both girls.

    The rape attempt is telling as well, though he was there alone in his place of comfort he wasn't able to rape either girl, however semen was discovered, though it doesn't indicate where on the victim it was .

    However in cases, like this its not unheard of for the offender to masturbate over the victim(s). But I believe I read somewhere the DNA was from blood.


    Even though he's in an area of comfort he still feels the need to bury the bodies, to delay discovery , which also signals some comfort at the scene as he took the time to do so .

    Because it appears rape was the primary motive in this case, we can begin to look through rapist typologies.

    There's a good amount of overkill, often indicative of anger, both girls are stabbed repeatedly, one is stabbed over a dozen times, one is hit hard enough in the back of her head to fracture her skull, she is stabbed multiple times, and her pants are "pushed up into her crotch" . Its suspected the rape attempt was while the girls were critically injured or dead, the clothes of the 1st victim, are cut off and pushed up above her breasts.

    The inherent rage to unknown victims, the inability to rape victims, beaten and stabbed to the point they are no longer able to resist. The comfort at the scene, taking time to bury victims, that aren't in plain sight to begin with, dragging a dying victim, from the beach back to the dunes, to hide the body in broad daylight .

    then you have an offender most likely covered in blood, who would have to break cover at some point, unless he went into the water to wash off prior, you're most likely looking at a local .

    Precipitating stressors, possibly fueled this attack, he most likely had the knife for a legitimate reason, he wasn't out hunting, but the victims, and the opportunity aligned, perfectly for him to assault and kill the girls.

    Part of this anger is most likely fueled by some form of sexual dysfunction, and these girls represented (either a real or perceived) target of what fueled his anger.


    there are 2 types of anger rapist

    1) Anger retaliatory (Displaced) which represents about 5-6% of all rape cases,

    2) Anger excitation (sadistic) which is the most rare type


    Given there is no evidence of torture, or prolonged suffering, I feel your offender is most likely closest to the 1st offender.

    Anger retaliatory rapist :

    The anger-retaliatory sexual murderer commits sexual offense with the intent of killing the victim during or after the sexual activity. The drive behind the anger-retaliatory murderer lies in a deep-seated hate toward women. This hatred stems from the offender’s sense of inferiority to a dominating female figure. Consequently, the offender’s victim is used as a surrogate for the figure that caused the killer to feel insignificant.

    This could be someone they slighted that day , and the opportunity presented itself.
     
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  11. ZaZara

    ZaZara Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the link, nadjatheresa.
    What a nasty piece of work this Derek Ernest Percy was.... even as a kid and a teenager. So young and so cruel! Makes one think twice about positive affirmations like if you can dream it, you can do it!

    I was watching the video from Crime Watch Australia, the part about the Wanda Beach Murder and I wondered why they would show a young man / teenager as the murderer, very bad taste and counterproductive IMHO but I suspect they opted for Percy.

    quote from Ausgirl:
     
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  12. ZaZara

    ZaZara Well-Known Member

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    *makes mental note never to eat seafood with RichKelly !*


    :escape: :doorhide:
     
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  13. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    RichKelly, thanks for your thoughtful overview, and I tend to agree with you on all points.

    I think there's a chance Christine had met the killer previously, if not that same day during the time she was off on her own, then on a previous trip. It was Christine who had the alcohol in her system (the equivalent of one glass of beer), as well as the cabbage and celery (spring roll? coleslaw?).

    It could explain why they wandered (with the cranky younger children in tow) all the way down the beach and then took off in the 'wrong direction' into the hills, rather than simply going home again or picking a spot closer to where they'd left their belongings.

    I do think the person was living locally at the time, and probably found somewhere secluded to wash himself off in the ocean before going home.
     
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  14. Kell1

    Kell1 Verified law enforcement

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    Very welcome.

    The girls actions are definitely suspicious, why would they leave the kids?. I can see one girl going back , but both leaving young children, seems strange.

    The sad part is that this guy most likely went on to a life of crime, possibly rape or further murders .... will have a history of bad relationships, abuse, drug and alcohol use. (your typical ******* type, with a hatred of women)

    Id guarantee he revisited the scene a few times, after . (Maybe even still does if hes still alive) ..but not for remorse, more likely to relive the situation

    Post Offensive behavior would be an over active interest in the case, more use of drugs, or alcohol, paranoia etc...
     
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  15. STANDREID

    STANDREID A slacker when slacker wasn't cool

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    I see 4 possibilities and only the first is very likely, that is, the girls had made prearrangements to meet some person or persons, most likely male, who turned out to be malevolent.

    The other three, unlikely, reasons they left the children were because:

    They just wanted to take a walk like they said, they went to find something hidden, probably alcohol, that had been left or the girls were in a physical relationship with each other and wanted to get away for that. In all the last three cases then the killer just happened upon them by chance.
     
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  16. Kell1

    Kell1 Verified law enforcement

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    They may've been followed by him, but it was almost certainly a crime of opportunity.

    Once everything aligned for him, he was gonna show them, all those girls who snubbed him, his overbearing mother who made him feel worthless , they fact they were just female they were going to pay .
     
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  17. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    He could also have a sexual dysfunction or deformity, been laughed at or rejected in a humiliating way by women or girls before. He could have raped, but did not, yet still managed to ejaculate. It was all about humiliation, perhaps, his own and subsequently that of the victims.

    I don't think this was sheer opportunity, it's too great a coincidence that the girls acted out of character - Christine going off on her own, the girls going off in the 'wrong direction' - and then ended up dead. I am pretty convinced that Christine had encountered him before, possibly that same day if not on previous visits.

    It's just a guess - but I'm thinking Christine was the primary victim. I do think he clobbered Marianne first, to keep her out of the way while he attacked Christine, as I cannot imagine Marianne standing there and watching like a mullet (as she did in the re-enaction). But during or after Christine's attack, Marianne came to and managed to get away into the hills. This would have enraged him.. hence the overkill: rage and control-assertion.

    Here's a thought - how'd the police know Marianne ran away -screaming-? Did the younger children hear her? Another witness?

    I agree with the notion he'd have killed again. I think these could well have been his first murders, but they would -not- be his first sexually motivated crimes. He'd be a peeper, a stalker, I somehow doubt direct rape (or he'd made attempts and failed). If he did indeed directly lure one or both girls out into the hills (possibly over a period of time), then he'd be patient and manipulative as well.

    For sure, he'd have returned to the spot at some stage. Not sure about self-insertion, I feel he was probably a bit wary of police, already. But I feel he likely visited the site.

    And yes, committed other murders. Very likely, he did. First locally to wherever he lived (he might not have lived in the area, could have been visiting, but I tend to think a local) and then further away as his confidence grew, or he moved homes.
     
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  18. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    On January 29, 1966, a cleaning lady named Wilhelmina Kruger was killed in the Piccadilly Arcade in Wollongong. Her body was discovered by a casual butcher when he arrived to work at the local butcher shop.She had been Strangled & Mutilated.Police believed that the murder might have been the work of the Wanda Beach killer, but would not say why.

    On February 17, 1966, a prostitute named Anna Dowlingkoa went missing after leaving a nightclub in Kings Cross. Ten days later, her Mutilated body was found by a truck driver at the side of a road in Menai. Police immediately linked her murder with that of Wilhelmina Kruger. Again, they believed that the murder might have been the work of the Wanda Beach killer, but once again, would not say what led them to believe this. The murders of Wilhelmina Kruger and Annya Dowlingkoa are far less well known now than the Wanda Beach murders.


    http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/SharrockSchmidt.htm


    I'm really curious as to WHY! Perhaps there was something of a signature going on?
     
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  19. Kell1

    Kell1 Verified law enforcement

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    Its not coincidence, he was at the beach that day for a reason , though he could've been someone stalking the dunes for just that opportunity.

    When they were where he felt comfortable, he attacked, it may've been a blitz style attack, if that's the case, then you have even more to go on.

    Blitz attacks are usually the result of uncertainty on part of the offender, usually because something physically or psychologically limits them. They lack the ability to gain access to a victim through ruse or con . That's because they feel the victim notices, the abnormality .

    If it were a physical limitation, such as a handicap, I He most likely wouldn't be able to control 2 victims, especially without any bindings , I also feel it would've made the killer more obvious , more people would most likely see someone with a noticeable physical disability roaming the dunes that day..

    So if he did blitz the girls, than I feel there's some other disability that the offender, may be dealing with , I feel you are looking at someone with something like a speech impediment

    He didn't feel he would've been able to con the girls to go with him willingly , even though they apparently didn't have any compunction about leaving the children alone, to go off into the dunes together.

    If that's the case, he most likely bludgeoned Marianne 1st then attacked Christine, , when Marianne got up to run, he chased her caught her and stabbed her .. dragged her back to the dunes, where Christine was already dying or dead , where he then attempted to sexually assault them but couldn't. Perhaps because of sexual dysfunction.

    As far as other crimes, id expect to see possible attempted rapes in his past , because hes most likely a local ANY attempted rapes in the area should be scrutinized . Probably has done some time , Precipitating stressor or triggering event prior to the murder , overbearing /abusive mother.

    These types usually have a past history of bedwetting, or cruelty to animals (sometimes small children )

    Almost certainly committed further crimes most likely of a sexual nature
     
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  20. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    A blog post here, regarding Wilhelmina's murder, with some interesting comments below it (especially regarding mutilation). The author also documents some of the wilder rumours surrounding the case. It seems fairly certain Wilhelmina was actually badly mutilated, however.

    http://forgottenillawarra.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/the-piccadilly-murder/

    That the Wanda beach murders were firmly linked with Wilhelmina's in the minds of the police is evident here, where a Cairns man is questioned over both cases:

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107031509
     
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  21. Ausgirl

    Ausgirl Enough Is Enough!

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    Good thoughts, Rich!

    Perhaps, though, a blitz style attack could have resulted from there being two victims who both needed to be controlled and very quickly. He might have been good-looking or charming enough to lure Christine or both girls out to the hills via an earlier meeting with Christine.

    Just some further thoughts: I doubt his primary interest was rape alone, my feeling is that he was very comfortable with idea of a dead body and gaining a sense of total control that way.
     
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