Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[KiwiNZ]

I was wondering why Marion would buy a French newspaper and if she even spoke French, I saw this a comment from 7 years ago from a former student in response to an article, possible she did buy the Le Couriers to practice her French.

Catherine • 7 years ago


Miss Brown, as I knew her, was my 3rd grade teacher. I have such wonderful and fond memories of her. She used to take us (her whole class) to the ballet, and I can still remember most of the French she taught us - we conversed with her in french each and every morning for our whole year! The song I now sing to our 1 year old daughter, every night since she was born, is one of the many songs Miss Brown taught us 30 years ago. Miss Brown was one of the most cultured, beautiful women I knew. It would be wonderful if anyone with any information could come forward..

 

[Mel 1303]

I was wondering why Marion would buy a French newspaper and if she even spoke French, I saw this a comment from 7 years ago from a former student in response to an article, possible she did buy the Le Couriers to practice her French.

Catherine • 7 years ago


Miss Brown, as I knew her, was my 3rd grade teacher. I have such wonderful and fond memories of her. She used to take us (her whole class) to the ballet, and I can still remember most of the French she taught us - we conversed with her in french each and every morning for our whole year! The song I now sing to our 1 year old daughter, every night since she was born, is one of the many songs Miss Brown taught us 30 years ago. Miss Brown was one of the most cultured, beautiful women I knew. It would be wonderful if anyone with any information could come forward..

There was also a book published in the 90's, in French, authored by Luxembourgish educator Michele Remakel. She may also have read her work? As a fellow educator, she may have been interested in the book, which could have exposed Marion to both the country and the name.
I also have been interested in Marion's first cousins, who grew up in England but now at least one lives in Germany-which boarders Luxembourg. Apparently Marion didn't contact them while over there, but has this been checked? What do they look like? Is there, by chance, a cousin who resembles Marion enough for Marion to use her ID

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Here is the timeline, started by Rosewood, which I have added to and included bits from the ch 7 timeline. If you have time/interest, please add your dates/details. I will be reviewing to add my details/extras. All info is from podcast, unless detailed.
October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay


1960’s – attends Sydney teachers college, Balmain. Not yet confirmed- from fb.


Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1969- Fernand Remakel injured, stops playing rep football.

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

Early 70’s, probably 72- Marion transfers from Narwee PS to Peakhurst South PS.

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. Where in QLD? Were her parents there yet?

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.


1984 ish- Fernand divorce from first wife.


June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1994- ad in Le Courrier Australian

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

June 4th- Sally’s Engagement Patty where she saw her ex and son.

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday to sister Diedre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the orient express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she wont be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia

August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

Sept 3rd where AFP claim Marion entered a the country again.


September 13 1997- Marion visits doctor in Grafton

October 18th 1997 Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had located Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marions father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller at CBA Byron, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sallys first child born

March 6, 2002- Owen dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale. Date now change- being followed up.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marions father, dies.

2004- her money from Barclays in the uk was returned to the commonwealth as untouched funds after 7 years.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

2017- Sally wrote to Gladys Berejiklian asking for carriage to be transferred from NSW to QLD.

Completely brilliant Mel1303 - the only thing I can think of to add to the timeline is when the wallet was stolen .... there may be a link there, the thief may have had an accomplice, found out all about Marion and set her up ... not a nice thought, but possible .... identity theft, etc. The dates though .... so the police say the wallet was reported stolen in June 1994 . Sally says Marion's good friend Barb stayed with her in September 1996, and another friend, Janice, visited around Feb '97 - they both say the wallet was stolen around that time. Sally says she moved out of her mother's home in August '95 and the wallet was stolen after she had moved out. A lady looking identical to Marion, in big glasses, younger though, was caught on CCTV a photo from that footage was seen by Sally. Thinking the timestamp on the image would clear up the date. If anyone's interested the stolen wallet is mentioned in Bonus Conversations 14 starting around 50.13

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Societal values/attitudes/beliefs in Luxembourg are different to Australia.

To be fair to Ferdinand he (like everyone else) is ethnocentric, he thinks the way things are done in his society are normal (and anything outside of this isnt). This is why he makes the comments about Australians being unintelligent - from his perspective Alison is either rude or clueless.
Alison is ethnocentric too. However, she is supposed to be a professional and she wants something from Ferdinand, so she should be approaching him in a culturally sensitive way to give herself the best possible chance of success.

Here are a few basic guidelines for business communication with the Luxembourgish found here. Business communication

• Luxembourgers prefer subtlety to directness.
• Luxembourgers do not put possessions or emotions on display.
• Communication should be logical and based on reason.
• Do not ask personal questions or intrude on privacy. Personal matters are rarely discussed with friends no matter how close.
• Luxemburgers are formal and reserved when dealing with outsiders. They are careful and prurient before trusting when developing relationships and this cannot be rushed. If you are impatient they will not do business with you.

It's easy to see from this how highly inappropriate and offensive the approach toward Ferdinand and his wife has been.

This is completely interesting, Intrigued, thanks for putting it up. As soon as I get time I'll put up a post of Fernand's quotes from the interview, totally matches the behaviour described here.

 

[Mel 1303]

In Episode 7, 45:30 there are details of some of the people G. Sheehan interviewed. Talked to teachers/staff still at TSS, accessed school records, talked to teachers credit union, talked to teachers health. Went to QLD up to a dozen time. When I listened the first time, I was focused on seething at the way Garry Sheehan was being portrayed, when he clearly did investigate. Missed the good bit though.

Teachers Credit Union. Teachers Health. A different bank, and health insurance. Did he talked to them to ensure she didn't have accounts with both (which would be highly unusual for a teacher of her generation), or because she did? How much was in the colonial account? How much was in the credit union account? I don't suppose there were any lotto wins in SE QLD in 1997? Will have to dig.....

 

[Garyb]

Me too KiwiNZ. All this publicity, but at what cost? The podcast are burning an awful lot of Sally's bridges. Once channel 7 run out of money or listener number drop what then for her?

I agree that poor Sally might end up the victim in all this. As someone said before if Marion is out there having started a new life this would have completely frightened her off. What happens to Sally when the Seven lose interest in the podcast.

 

[Mel 1303]

I agree that poor Sally might end up the victim in all this. As someone said before if Marion is out there having started a new life this would have completely frightened her off. What happens to Sally when the Seven loose interest in the podcast.

Yep. What happens to Sally? What happens if one of us (or anyone else) comes across an answer. Can Sally take her answer and walk away from the podcast?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

It would cost a hell of a lot more over time not to utilize Medicare entitlements, whether by presenting the card or claiming a refund afterwards. Marion was of an age to be needing increasing health care services. The information that she was claiming wouldn't have been available to her family (as opposed to police) and she could have no reason for not claiming unless she was faking dead.

She was only in her early 50s when she disappeared and had no (known) exisiting conditions, youd expect her not to be heavily dependant on medical services for a number of years. Her banking records shouldnt have been available to her family either but that was what led them to her.

 

[Mel 1303]

She was only in her early 50s when she disappeared and had no (known) exisiting conditions, youd expect her not to be heavily dependant on medical services for a number of years. Her banking records shouldnt have been available to her family either but that was what led them to her.

Teachers health! Garry Sheehan investigated teachers health fund! Why? Did she have insurance? Most teachers her age would.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Fernand aside, Marion stated on her arrival card that she was from Luxembourg, which fits with the Remakel name that she chose. There must be some reason she wanted to connect her new identity with Luxembourg. I think Sally (or someone from the podcast) mentioned that Marion loved the Netherlands--I wonder if Marion had ever traveled to Luxembourg before (maybe on a European trip that included Netherlands)?

Perhaps Luxembourg was chosen because it's one of the countries where French is a national language. We know Marion spoke at least some French so this would support the back-story she created for her new identity. Luxembourg is (maybe?) lesser known than the other French speaking European countries (Belgium, France, Monaco and Switzerland) and this would present less challenges to her backstory.

 

[Mel 1303]

Perhaps Luxembourg was chosen because it's one of the countries where French is a national language. We know Marion spoke at least some French so this would support the back-story she created for her new identity. Luxembourg is (maybe?) lesser known than the other French speaking European countries (Belgium, France, Monaco and Switzerland) and this would present less challenges to her backstory.

Also, if someone was helping/advising Marion, maybe Remakel and or Luxembourg was relevant to them, with no connection to Marion.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

When I listened the first time, I was focused on seething at the way Garry Sheehan was being portrayed, when he clearly did investigate. Missed the good bit though.

Ha ha! I did the same!! I will have to go back and listen.

Teachers Credit Union. Teachers Health. A different bank, and health insurance. Did he talked to them to ensure she didn't have accounts with both (which would be highly unusual for a teacher of her generation), or because she did? How much was in the colonial account? How much was in the credit union account? I don't suppose there were any lotto wins in SE QLD in 1997? Will have to dig.....

Wow! This is really interesting. Possibly another bank account and insurance. Marion doesnt appear to have been big on consolidating her financial stuff - could there also have been another super account with a teachers industry fund that hadnt been amalgamated?

Interesting too that the red cross letter mentioned only CBA and Colonial (no teacher credit union) and it doesnt give much more info than what the family were told by police. I was thinking about this yesterday when someone raised a really good question about red-cross power to investigate. Perhaps the red cross only looked into what the family had provided (Marion was missing and that they thought the 5k transaction were suspect) and that the response was limited to those points.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Also, if someone was helping/advising Marion, maybe Remakel and or Luxembourg was relevant to them, with no connection to Marion.

Yes. If she wanted not to be found that's far more likely!

That website that you posted about going missing is fascinating (and scary!!). It aligns a lot of Marion's behaviour.

 

[Mel 1303]

Ha ha! I did the same!! I will have to go back and listen.



Wow! This is really interesting. Possibly another bank account and insurance. Marion doesnt appear to have been big on consolidating her financial stuff - could there also have been another super account with a teachers industry fund that hadnt been amalgamated?

Interesting too that the red cross letter mentioned only CBA and Colonial (no teacher credit union) and it doesnt give much more info than what the family were told by police. I was thinking about this yesterday when someone raised a really good question about red-cross power to investigate. Perhaps the red cross only looked into what the family had provided (Marion was missing and that they thought the 5k transaction were suspect) and that the response was limited to those points.

The initial investigation had Marion identified withdrawing the balance of her account and talking of starting a new life. Later on thr phone she said tell sally im angry about the car. She fit the criteria for located, so no one was lookong furthet. The salvos got their info from tge missing perspns unit. It was only when Sally reported her missing again that Garry Sheehan dig into TSS, credit union etc.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I feel like the Sally Army was only reiterating the information family had told them or maybe police but I don't think the bank would have given any information to the Sally Army, their search would be limited to public record, they just have more experience and knowledge on how to access this than the general public. IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

deleting double post

 

[KiwiNZ]

Wow - amazing Mel1303!!!!!!! Have you sent this to Sally/TLV? I'm sure it's helpful... One thing that particularly sticks out to me:

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia
August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

who sent that postcard on 30th given passport returned on 2nd?

Is the postcard date correct ? I thought Sally’s postcard was dated the 30th June, last postcard was the 7th of July.

 

[JLZ]

Is the postcard date correct ? I thought Sally’s postcard was dated the 30th June, last postcard was the 7th of July.

I wondered that as well--whether "sent" means postmarked date, or date inscribed by writer, or (misleadingly) the date received.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The initial investigation had Marion identified withdrawing the balance of her account and talking of starting a new life. Later on thr phone she said tell sally im angry about the car. She fit the criteria for located, so no one was lookong furthet. The salvos got their info from tge missing perspns unit. It was only when Sally reported her missing again that Garry Sheehan dig into TSS, credit union etc.

Ah ok that makes sense - thank you Mel1303!!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Completely brilliant Mel1303 - the only thing I can think of to add to the timeline is when the wallet was stolen .... there may be a link there, the thief may have had an accomplice, found out all about Marion and set her up ... not a nice thought, but possible .... identity theft, etc. The dates though .... so the police say the wallet was reported stolen in June 1994 . Sally says Marion's good friend Barb stayed with her in September 1996, and another friend, Janice, visited around Feb '97 - they both say the wallet was stolen around that time. Sally says she moved out of her mother's home in August '95 and the wallet was stolen after she had moved out. A lady looking identical to Marion, in big glasses, younger though, was caught on CCTV a photo from that footage was seen by Sally. Thinking the timestamp on the image would clear up the date. If anyone's interested the stolen wallet is mentioned in Bonus Conversations 14 starting around 50.13

The disagreement over when the wallet was stolen is really curious, I'm not sure what to make of all that. The time stamp is a great idea! There was a post on TLV Facebook page today saying that the N-CAT decision is due 13th Dec. If the file is released we might get some definative answers.