Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[thunderwombat]

May be Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel stands for "Florabella born Marion remade" Natalia means born at christmas ie Nativity etc.

I like the way you think, Garyb.

I've been concentrating on the first and last name and didn't give much thought to Natalia (thought it may be a Tolstoy reference) but Natalia, born on Christmas day! Each name is meaningful. Florabella - beautiful flower. Remakel - remake. Maybe Marion made the decision on Christmas day 1996 and put the plans in motion.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I like the way you think, Garyb.

I've been concentrating on the first and last name and didn't give much thought to Natalia (thought it may be a Tolstoy reference) but Natalia, born on Christmas day! Each name is meaningful. Florabella - beautiful flower. Remakel - remake. Maybe Marion made the decision on Christmas day 1996 and put the plans in motion.

I will second that. Like the way you are both thinking. Also, if there is a chance Marion saw this Remakel ad in the paper, as a teacher am guessing she may have read a lot generally .

Aidan de Brune (also known as the man who walked unaccompanied around the perimiter of Australia) was English born and wrote newspaper serials. His final serial was called "Saul and the Spinster" and although it seems to have been published in an ebook just within the last couple of years, was originally published I think as a newspaper serial in the 30s, been available at the National Library and possibly in other places since then. There is a chance Marion may have came across it, as Florabella is the name of the grand home that much of this novel seems to connect to. It is owned by a Mathilde Westways who tells police she believes her life is in danger. It is set in Sydney and although it is about a murder in a nightclub, it seems to involve the abduction of a woman, mentions of England as well as involvement by NSW police and even a mention of Colonial Bank. It's theme of the nightclub seems removed from Marion, but that's just what I got from skim reading - so might try reading it fully. Anyone read it themselves?

 

[Mel 1303]

Yes that isn't exactly reliable. I certainly found an F. Remackel. Admittedly not found any other Fs with the Remakel spelling except for 2 in the USA. I seen on reddit somewhere Sally maintain although rare, that the remakel surname is most popular in whole world in Luxembourg and how would her mum have known that with no internet in those days?
But it's really not. There are tons and tons in the USA. They have the most. I have now read from reddit Marion had never set foot out of Australia at all before 1997. Sally's words. So fair enough she hadn't been to the USA. But nor had she been to Luxembourg. Neither has a remakel entered or left Australia since 1990. So this fernand really if he says he has never been to Australia or any other remakel for that matter.. The evidence supports this. It seems like it was possibly based on someone with the f Remakel name, but that f remakel himself, whoever he is and wherever he is has has no idea at all.

BBM- I have to find the time, but in the Luxembourg episode it certainly sounded as though they said Marion had travelled overseas with Johnny Warren. Will have to relisten.

 

[thunderwombat]

...I have now read from reddit Marion had never set foot out of Australia at all before 1997. Sally's words.

I'm sure an ex-husband mentioned how much she loved Holland when they had visited, and wasn't that hideous balloon lady ornament bought while overseas? I don't recall any trips to the USA though.

 

[Mel 1303]

Yes that isn't exactly reliable. I certainly found an F. Remackel. Admittedly not found any other Fs with the Remakel spelling except for 2 in the USA. I seen on reddit somewhere Sally maintain although rare, that the remakel surname is most popular in whole world in Luxembourg and how would her mum have known that with no internet in those days?
But it's really not. There are tons and tons in the USA. They have the most. I have now read from reddit Marion had never set foot out of Australia at all before 1997. Sally's words. So fair enough she hadn't been to the USA. But nor had she been to Luxembourg. Neither has a remakel entered or left Australia since 1990. So this fernand really if he says he has never been to Australia or any other remakel for that matter.. The evidence supports this. It seems like it was possibly based on someone with the f Remakel name, but that f remakel himself, whoever he is and wherever he is has has no idea at all.

Are we sure that was Sally? Because she straight up says in the podcast, while talking to F Remakel "Johnny played over here and my mum came over with him". 27:29 Episode 11

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Having looked through a lot of the Le Courrier Les Petites Annonces I've come to the firm view that whoever was calling themselves Monsieur Remakel in the ad was definitely here in Australia at the time ..... it's illogical to think otherwise with that address and phone number, having compared it with the other submissions. Just my opinion though ...
Oooh, lots of new posts here, will have a look at them now

 

[thunderwombat]

Here are Johnny and Marion Warren's incoming passenger cards from Feb 1969 which state that they have spent 6 months away form Australia.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I

Having looked through a lot of the Le Courrier Les Petites Annonces I've come to the firm view that whoever was calling themselves Monsieur Remakel in the ad was definitely here in Australia at the time ..... it's illogical to think otherwise with that address and phone number, having compared it with the other submissions. Just my opinion though ...
Oooh, lots of new posts here, will have a look at them now

I think you are probably right. What on earth would be the point in posting the ad, whether genuine or otherwise unless you intended to meet the person who responded? In that day in age , it was mostly snail mail.Can't see a hidden catfish have the time or patience to string someone along without meeting them.

I say string along, because it seems to me this Remakel is not his actual name. No Remakel's going in or out of Australia and Marion centrainly never left the country between 1994 and when she went to the UK in 1997. I only say this confidently as I read Sally herself saying it on Reddit. Maybe she had forgot when she wrote it about the trip with Johnny Warren.

Whether the Remakel spelling is a misprint, who knows. I doubt it. I am coming to the firm belief someone used this pseudonym and any real Remakels out there are actually not involved, as they have never been around Australia in those years. It could be a someone who based their name on the football star Fernand, it could be someone who knew any other F. Remakel- but not F.Remakel himself. Maybe it was a crazed fan, who pretended to be F. Remakel. Maybe Marion happened to answer the ad and became intrigued when he said he had played football. There was no internet, so how could she check it out? Maybe she got swept up in it all. Maybe he could play football well and was all it took to convince her.

This is all specualtion of course. The only answer to the ad is really an existing paper trail, records kept by La Courrier (if any) or records of application for the PO Box address in Lennox Head that was used by "F.Remakel". For me the F. Remakel thing just brings up blanks, especially as he was never in Oz, or the UK, nor evidence of Marion in Luxembourg.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I apologise. Sally didn't exactly say she had never left Australia. This is a quote from Sally on Reddit

"Funny thought came to mind last week whilst traveling! There was no such thing as google back then and my mum hadn’t been out of Australia since her honeymoon w Ray Barter - so how the hell would she come up with Remakel from Luxembourg on her customs card? There are no Remakels in Australia- so I find this odd!"

So, she therefore hasn't been out of Australia between 1985 and 1997.

 

[bennythedog]

Here are Johnny and Marion Warren's incoming passenger cards from Feb 1969 which state that they have spent 6 months away form Australia.

Hey thunderwombat can I ask, if you can get these arrival cards, isn’t it possible to get the ones from 1997 when Marion arrives back from Uk/Luxembourg? Or are they too recent atm?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Here are Johnny and Marion Warren's incoming passenger cards from Feb 1969 which state that they have spent 6 months away form Australia.

Oh wowee, great find thunderwombat, how wonderful to see those cards, thanks for posting it

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Having looked through a lot of the Le Courrier Les Petites Annonces I've come to the firm view that whoever was calling themselves Monsieur Remakel in the ad was definitely here in Australia at the time ..... it's illogical to think otherwise with that address and phone number, having compared it with the other submissions. Just my opinion though ...
Oooh, lots of new posts here, will have a look at them now

I completely agree. Someone had to be there, in order to have any sort of incentive in posting an ad like that. Else what is there to get out of it? Why else would they have set up the Lennox Head PO box address?
But, no Remakel. This name has to be a red herring. Probably managed to convince whoever he met it was his real name though. A shame it was not handwritten. Handwriting specialist could have helped and because it is very factual, am not sure how helpful a linguistic analyst would be in determining the possible age, backgorund or gender of the ad's author.

As I understand, the podcast is very popular over in Australia and many are aware of Marion's case and disappearance now. I feel someone in the Lennox Head/ Ballina all the way up to Byron Bay area knows something about Marion or must suspect someone's involvement in the case. Some in that area knows who used that post office box at that time. Unless and only unless they used it just for the ad. I can't remember about the 2002 tip off..I know years later it was followed up to an address and residents knew nothing about it. But where exactly was that address. Was it in Arnidale itself? Could the people living there prove they had moved in after 2002? Whatever that person knows, they need to be tracked down again. Surely 2002 records are not too old to locate who was living there in that year.

 

[thunderwombat]

Hey thunderwombat can I ask, if you can get these arrival cards, isn’t it possible to get the ones from 1997 when Marion arrives back from Uk/Luxembourg? Or are they too recent atm?

These are from the National Archives of Australia Session expired | RecordSearch | National Archives of Australia Each card give the date of birth so there is no confusing people with the same name. Unfortunately the publicly available records only go up until 1972, with 1971 mostly missing. Johnny made overseas trips about 10 times during that time but I could only find the one record for Marion Warren. In all of J W's cards he lists his occupation as public relations officer rather than a professional sportsman.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Are we sure that was Sally? Because she straight up says in the podcast, while talking to F Remakel "Johnny played over here and my mum came over with him". 27:29 Episode 11

Thanks Mel1303, just had a listen at that timestamp in Episode 11 ... that quote caught my interest, hadn't noticed it before .... it infers that Johnny and Marion were in Luxembourg "played over here" ? Just had a look online, I'm no soccer expert, but found this:
"In 1969 he (Johnny Warren) led the Aussies on a gruelling World Cup campaign, where Australia took on Japan, South Korea, Zimbabwe and Israel in an exhaustingly hectic qualifying series, losing out on qualifying for the 1970 World Cup at the last hurdle. " Qualifying rounds:
10 Oct 1969 Japan v Australia W 1-3 FIFA World Cup
16 Oct 1969 Japan v Australia D 1-1 FIFA World Cup
Can't find any mention of them being over in Luxembourg, anyone know? That passenger card has them returning in Feb 1969. Is that also Nadi Airport, Fiji for the return flight? Just curious to find if Marion was over in Luxembourg with Johnny at some point.
Adding: I didn't know Marion had been overseas for a 6 months holiday, that's very interesting, even though it was 1968/69.

 

[Sparkles5777]

Are we sure that was Sally? Because she straight up says in the podcast, while talking to F Remakel "Johnny played over here and my mum came over with him". 27:29 Episode 11

I actually intperpeted that to mean over here as in, in 'Europe' in general, not specifically Luxembourg. My friends say it all the time and it cracks me up. As if going France is the same as going to Germany because they are so close in distance.

 

[thunderwombat]

It seems the majority of that time abroad 1968-69 was spent in Cheshire, England when J W played a season with Stockport County. He combined his playing duties with an intensive F.I.F.A. coaching course in Manchester. I don't know how much time (or money) there would have been for touring the Continent, but Marion could have made trips.

Not really related but searching for Johnny's time spent at Stockport, all other sources say it happened in 1964 with no mention of 68-69.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It seems the majority of that time abroad 1968-69 was spent in Cheshire, England when J W played a season with Stockport County. He combined his playing duties with an intensive F.I.F.A. coaching course in Manchester. I don't know how much time (or money) there would have been for touring the Continent, but Marion could have made trips.

Not really related but searching for Johnny's time spent at Stockport, all other sources say it happened in 1964 with no mention of 68-69.

Completely brilliant, those news articles piece it all together very nicely, thanks thunderwombat .... and I'm loving that archive link with the passenger cards, having a look around, so interesting
Adding: Just found a passenger card for Marion Wilson in 1966, gives address as Issac Street, Peakhurst, occupation school teacher, and 23 days away. What does "Passenger embarked at NDI" mean; where would that be? PS: What have you done thunderwombat, I'll never get out of here now, got things to do, but it's too darn interesting ... must look at more stuff

 

[Garyb]

Completely brilliant, those news articles piece it all together very nicely, thanks thunderwombat .... and I'm loving that archive link with the passenger cards, having a look around, so interesting
Adding: Just found a passenger card for Marion Wilson in 1966, gives address as Issac Street, Peakhurst, occupation school teacher, and 23 days away. What does "Passenger embarked at NDI" mean; where would that be? PS: What have you done thunderwombat, I'll never get out of here now, got things to do, but it's too darn interesting ... must look at more stuff

NDI is the code for Nadi airport. So they stopped for a break on the way back from the UK. alternatively as planes didnt have the range of today and needed to stop and refuel.
To stop in Fiji would mean they came back through the US.

 

[KiwiNZ]

What is the likelihood that it was NOT Marion on the return flight, anyone have a theory in which this scenario works ?

If the dates are correct by my calculation if the phone call from Marion did take place in the UK then it was not her on the flight, but she was also alive at the time someone else was on the flight.

The delay ( I think 2 days) in Marion calling Sally back after leaving the message on her answer phone could be because she was in transit. If I called someone to check they had not been caught up in a natural disaster I probally wouldn’t wait another 2 days to call back. Especially if it was family.

 

[thunderwombat]

What have you done thunderwombat, I'll never get out of here now, got things to do, but it's too darn interesting ... must look at more stuff

Oy, tell me about it.